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  1. #41
    Founder Firepants's Avatar
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    Disallow Iconic multiclassing, problem solved. They never should have been allowed to do so anyway.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    Disallow Iconic multiclassing, problem solved. They never should have been allowed to do so anyway.
    I completely agree, wish they would have been required to stay pure. But that cat is out of the bag, no way Turbine can implement this change now.

  3. #43
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I know most people would prefer to adjust balance upwards . . . buff the weak instead of nerfing the strong - but in this case yeah, nerfs are the better way to go.

    Though I wouldn't mind the level cap lifted on CSW.
    What kind of nerf to BF do you have in mind.

    If its to remove the self healing all together I disagree.

    I prefer the game to go in a direction where all toons have ways to heal themselves. I would prefer if the BF's had there healing SLA lowered down to RMW or RSW rather then Recon (An exception could be made if they are Paladins or Rangers) or some such, the idea is to make any melee (Barbarian, Rogue, Fighter) work as hard as a Ranger and Paladin to get good self healing then you would be free to buff Paladin DPS to where it should be, and fix Ranger T5's.

  4. #44
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    What kind of nerf to BF do you have in mind.

    If its to remove the self healing all together I disagree.

    I prefer the game to go in a direction where all toons have ways to heal themselves. I would prefer if the BF's had there healing SLA lowered down to RMW or RSW rather then Recon (An exception could be made if they are Paladins or Rangers) or some such, the idea is to make any melee (Barbarian, Rogue, Fighter) work as hard as a Ranger and Paladin to get good self healing then you would be free to buff Paladin DPS to where it should be, and fix Ranger T5's.
    It's kinda too late. We never should have been allowed to TR into, LR, or multiclass the iconics. This is where stuff breaks. That rconstruct would have been fine on a pure pally.

    FFIW . . . I think my pure Sun-elf Wizard is almost as broken.

    This is one of those things where the die is cast, a bell that can't be un-rung.

    I guess the best idea is just to nerf monks.

  5. #45
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    Seems obvious, so not sure if serious. But, the reconstruct SLA gives this iconic a notable advantage in the self-healing department. This imbalances the iconic compared to other race options, and combined with the limitation of being lawful good given the 1 paladin level, interacts with several class splits as well. Of course, changing that SLA to be more reasonably in line with other aspects of the game will be met with fierce opposition given this is a premium game feature so any nerf will be seen as "bait and switch."

    Basically think of this type of "fix" in the same way you think of fixing your cat or dog. They won't enjoy it, but it'll make life more equitable for everyone else in the neighborhood (or all other class/races in the game).

    Here's another solution that would be equally well received, force the iconic to be unable to multi-class. Because, you know, everyone wants to roll with a pure paladin.
    Why do you believe Iconics SHOULD be on even footing with out of the box races?
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  6. #46
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Why do you believe Iconics SHOULD be on even footing with out of the box races?
    Starting toons at level 15 so new players can see the FR content right away = good (well, sorta)

    Pay2Win super-races for ubber-all-powerful munchkin builds = bad.

  7. #47
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Starting toons at level 15 so new players can see the FR content right away = good (well, sorta)

    Pay2Win super-races for ubber-all-powerful munchkin builds = bad.
    From what has been implemented I think the Iconic's were a bit more than an intro for new players. I think that is the biggest issue here, folks dont agree on what the Iconics goal was. I dont know what it was but the evidence suggests is was intended more than only a preview character.

    I dont have a problem with some kinds of options being available to make more powerful characters. The idea that all should be equal is poorly conceived IMO.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    From what has been implemented I think the Iconic's were a bit more than an intro for new players. I think that is the biggest issue here, folks dont agree on what the Iconics goal was. I dont know what it was but the evidence suggests is was intended more than only a preview character.

    I dont have a problem with some kinds of options being available to make more powerful characters. The idea that all should be equal is poorly conceived IMO.
    Citation needed. Get me a statement from the devs stating iconics were intended to be OP munchkin races for power gamers.

  9. #49
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Citation needed for when they stated otherwise
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Citation needed for when they stated otherwise
    Sigh . .. amatuers. You need to spend a few more years in the monirs before you can step on the trolling-field with me.

    https://www.ddo.com/en/articles/u18-...eveloper-diary

    Ben "DrOctothorpe" Schneider: The basic idea is you take a fully realized level 15 character and jump into the game with gear and everything setup in one of the stories we've provided

  11. #51

    Default Bigger Fish ...

    BF are fine. Whether we argue over FOM builds, Monchers, etc ...

    Let's see the game get to a level 30 cap and see how the various builds/classes come out.

    Then we can start the b*tching again.

  12. #52
    Founder Firepants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I completely agree, wish they would have been required to stay pure. But that cat is out of the bag, no way Turbine can implement this change now.
    One can dream.

  13. #53
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    The game just continues to evolve.

    I remember when every power gamer was a Warforged melee (pre half-orcs), and there were calls to nerf that. Then the game changed, and the need for healing amp became more apparent and they became the total red-head stepchild.

    In the current game, there is very little need for outside healing. Healing Amp is only important because builds want to heal themselves with lower power heals like CMW or Cocoon. In this context, SLA Reconstruct is quite powerful. The problem with downgrading it to RMW is that it will totally make it useless, since Forged cannot stack the kind of repair amp that fleshies can, and their healing amp is already so weak. Particularly with new players, this is going to result in a lot of -10% xp.

    This can easily change with new content, especially if tanking becomes important again. I doubt we're going to see a world where sorcs are primary healers.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sigh . .. amatuers. You need to spend a few more years in the monirs before you can step on the trolling-field with me.

    https://www.ddo.com/en/articles/u18-...eveloper-diary

    Ben "DrOctothorpe" Schneider: The basic idea is you take a fully realized level 15 character and jump into the game with gear and everything setup in one of the stories we've provided
    Now TT, you know I bow to your trolliness and dont attempt to compete with the very pinacle of trolldumb.

    But that said, I am quite familiar with the peice you have linked and if you read it more closely it tends to support the postition I take. Further, implementation of this process goes even furthre to support the idea that Bladeforged are not SOLELY a preview type class.

    For example:
    Greg "Piloto" Yungman: It's flexible. There's this prestige Iconic character and their play style; we provide a starting point on the roleplaying front and also with special skills and abilities. Being DDO, however, we also enable you to break away from the path. You can re-forge a Bladeforge's path, if you want.


    "Special Abilities" is pretty wide open to interpretation. Plus the fact that they DO have abilities beyond the standard out of the box character and there is ONLY a buy function to even access them. All of this makes me think that this is a step up from the standard out of the box races.

    If you disagree thats all good...but thats how I read it.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    The problem with downgrading it to RMW is that it will totally make it useless, since Forged cannot stack the kind of repair amp that fleshies can, and their healing amp is already so weak.
    Going to say i don't see that as a problem nor do I think is useless, Barbs, Rogues, Fighters aren't supposed to have premium self healing and they should have to work at it harder then Rangers, Paladins, and Artificers

    RMW 2d6+14 = 21.0 Avg
    RSW 3d6+21 = 31.5 Avg

    Spell Power
    138 Red Slot
    023 Reapier Skill
    003 Mechanist Enh
    011 Spellcraft Skill
    100 Maximize Spell
    075 Empower Spell
    350 Total

    Repair Amp
    1.20 Racial
    1.10 Gear
    1.32 Total

    21.0 * (1+3.5) * 1.32 = 124.74 Avg ( 95.04Low, 154.44 High)
    31.5 * (1+3.5) * 1.32 = 187.11 Avg (142.56 Low, 231.66 High)

    Not as much healing as a Human/Helf Range Paladin. But the Free metamagic can make up for the lack of gear. Supplement the blue bar with Scrolls, and Yugo pots and it becomes much more balance than it is now where 6 AP gets you 300+ with very little spell power investment. They can also then add in more Repair Amp gear if they so desire.

  16. #56
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Going to say i don't see that as a problem nor do I think is useless, Barbs, Rogues, Fighters aren't supposed to have premium self healing and they should have to work at it harder then Rangers, Paladins, and Artificers
    The construct healing penalty takes them off the board without the reconstruct. A BF trying to keep himself alive with cocoon/scroll just ain't gonna happen.

    If you want to give the fleshy ranger/pally a bit of a boost remove the caster limit on CSW, in FoTW it'll be better than reconstruct (i think, haven't crunched those numbers).

  17. #57
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I get your point but the thing is bladeforged are not just a little bit better than the other races, they are miles ahead. Uninterruptible self healing is everything in EE. Cocoon and scrolls can't even come close.

    That's not even mentioning that they get extra bonuses to attack and defense over other races. It's insane. There's absolutely zero reason to play any other race over a bladeforged right now for most builds. That's just not right. I can think of a few exceptions like a sun elf enchanter or cleric/favored souls but for most everyone else if you aren't a robot you're gimp.

    This. After playing by there is absolutely no reason for most all classes to not be this. Regular ware forge might as well be made ftp or dumped all together. Or give every other race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Going to say i don't see that as a problem nor do I think is useless, Barbs, Rogues, Fighters aren't supposed to have premium self healing and they should have to work at it harder then Rangers, Paladins, and Artificers

    RMW 2d6+14 = 21.0 Avg
    RSW 3d6+21 = 31.5 Avg

    Spell Power
    138 Red Slot
    023 Reapier Skill
    003 Mechanist Enh
    011 Spellcraft Skill
    100 Maximize Spell
    075 Empower Spell
    350 Total

    Repair Amp
    1.20 Racial
    1.10 Gear
    1.32 Total

    21.0 * (1+3.5) * 1.32 = 124.74 Avg ( 95.04Low, 154.44 High)
    31.5 * (1+3.5) * 1.32 = 187.11 Avg (142.56 Low, 231.66 High)

    Not as much healing as a Human/Helf Range Paladin. But the Free metamagic can make up for the lack of gear. Supplement the blue bar with Scrolls, and Yugo pots and it becomes much more balance than it is now where 6 AP gets you 300+ with very little spell power investment. They can also then add in more Repair Amp gear if they so desire.
    That might look good on a fleshie, but if you are only get 40% healing from other sources it is not nearly enough. Newbs on BF will be a laughing stock.

    Fleshies can make much better use of Silver Flame Pots as well. Remember those? Everyone wanted to nerf those about a year ago. I still find them useful when I've gotten a little too aggressive.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The construct healing penalty takes them off the board without the reconstruct. A BF trying to keep himself alive with cocoon/scroll just ain't gonna happen.

    If you want to give the fleshy ranger/pally a bit of a boost remove the caster limit on CSW, in FoTW it'll be better than reconstruct (i think, haven't crunched those numbers).
    Removing the CL cap changes CSW from 3d6+6+15 to 3d6+6+30

    3d6+6+30 = 46.5 avg, 39 low, 54 Hight

    With Maximize that's
    78 Low, 93 avg, 108 High

    Recon/Heal is base
    150
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 02-13-2014 at 01:12 PM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    That might look good on a fleshie, but if you are only get 40% healing from other sources it is not nearly enough. Newbs on BF will be a laughing stock.
    Newbs who build self healing fighter, rogues, or barbs should be laughing stocks that's an advanced build there going for.

    I'm fine with the enhancement working better on Paladin and Rangers, or any other proper caster class.

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