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  1. #1
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Default Soliciting Suggestions for the Return of the Fastest Raid/Quest Times Thread

    Hi all, you may recall our beloved fastest times record thread hosted by Hunta-EU: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...imes-Worldwide

    Well with the acceptance of our petition to have an accurate quest timer reinstated, so will the record-keeping (and breaking!) resume. Hunta-EU has graciously given me the chance to continue his work and relaunch the speed record book. Much has changed since U13, when the timer last functioned correctly, and the speed record book is going to undergo a significant overhaul. Before formulating the new speed record book, I wanted to hear your input on a few points.

    First of all, the thread's focus has been and will continue to focus on speed completions. There are two well-managed threads that discuss solo completions without regard to speed hosted by Vanshilar here and miscellaneous achievements hosted by AidanRyuko here. The speed record thread will not attempt to cover any of the information recorded there, as in the past, it's main objective is to track the fastest completions.

    Here are proposals that will result in major changes from the original speed record book, and therefore wanted to hear feedback from people who regularly frequent the achievements section on whether they like or dislike such changes. It may be helpful to take a glance at Hunta-EU's old record thread to refresh yourself on the format:

    ***************************************

    1) Elimination of eberron quest tracking: fens, vons (except von5/6), sentinels, sands, will no longer be tracked. The reason for this is because these quests are no longer endgame, their loot is outdated, and they are rarely run other than for XP. An exception to this will be the GH series (see next question).

    2) Tracking of only a subset of quests, primarily mini-chain end-quests or main-track quests. Formerly ALL level cap quests were tracked (raids and all epic quests). What I'm talking about is excluding things like impossible demands, rusted blades, GH walk-ups. There are two reasons for this. First, the number of epic cap quests is now over three times greater now than it was before, and we want to keep this record book in the readable range, instead of one gargantuan wall of text. Second, we want to focus competition on quests that are challenging and run frequently. For example we want players to be competing for the fastest EE WGU time, and not who can zergfly through EN rusted blades fastest.

    3) What to do with all the speed runs between U14 and U20? I struggled greatly with this one. My proposal is to exclude all entries spanning the period where the quest timer was not working properly. This is NOT because these achievements aren't noteworthy (they definitely are), but because the focus during the broken timer period was primarily on soloing, which is already well recorded by Vanshilar, and also because verifying times would be a logistical impracticality. Quest timers were broken, and although sometimes they recorded from the first mob kill, or first quest action, this was not always the case, and it was horribly inconsistent. As such screenshots are wholly unreliable for verification purposes. If we were to consider video evidence, this is also fraught with difficulty due to different start times of videos (for example in FOT some start before entry, on entry, between entry and the dropdown, at the dropdown, etc.) and some of these videos don't show proof of the difficulty attempted. Furthermore, many deserving players achieved speedy completions but were unable to record video (due to hardware or software limitations), and excluding them would also be unfair. Lastly, the number of people attempting/pursuing speed runs spanning U14-U20 is few and far between due to the difficulty of proving you actually did the speed run and a general lack of interest as a result. Again, these are incredible achievements, however they can't be reliably compared to each other or to future runs, which is essential to record-keeping. One form of compromise would be to have an honorable mentions section for the time spanning U14-U20? Either in a separate thread or as an appendix to the main record thread.

    ***************************************

    The caveat to all of the above is the speed record book has always been powered by the participants, these are my ideas and if popular opinion differs then we will go with that. If the game changes and people's opinions change, then we will revisit the format and amend as needed. Hopefully I explained this sufficiently and if you need any clarification please let me know. Thanks again to Hunta-EU for his great body of work that made this possible.
    Last edited by ishr; 02-09-2014 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default agreed!

    sounds good. i've been training for this my whole life!!!(and the previous 20 lifes too)

  3. #3
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Video or it didn't happen.

  4. #4
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    Default videos are boring

    i personally would just like to see the end result, a record or not, i don't really wanna watch someone else do a raid.

    i'm very thankful we have official times now, and can have official records.

  5. #5
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macadope View Post
    i personally would just like to see the end result, a record or not, i don't really wanna watch someone else do a raid.

    i'm very thankful we have official times now, and can have official records.
    Never hear of fast forward? It's been around for a while now. Allows you to skip right to the end just like you say you like.

    Video allows you to see what "tactics" were used, for the lack of a better word, with all the different ways to cheat now days. Also it's a time counter that's accurate to the second.
    Last edited by Knight_slayer; 02-09-2014 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Also it's a time counter that's accurate to the second.
    The new timer is accurate to the seconds as well.

    @Ishr:

    What about raids? Are you going to monitor only EE completions, or all diffs? What about heroic raids?

  7. #7
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Never hear of fast forward? It's been around for a while now. Allows you to skip right to the end just like you say you like.

    Video allows you to see what "tactics" were used, for the lack of a better word, with all the different ways to cheat now days. Also it's a time counter that's accurate to the second.
    i agree that video has a number of advantages, and i can see how a video only adds or enriches content. though i would encourage video to be recorded, for the purposes of speed record keeping it's not practical to require video evidence of every run. in some cases, time is skipped through editing, or the video starts after the quest starts. not all players have rigs that can run video recording smoothly, and most importantly video quality sometimes interferes with a clearly visible timestamp and difficulty setting at the end. finally, i just don't have the time to review every video that's submitted. is it favorable? yes. should it be mandatory? i'm making a ruling here and saying no.

  8. #8
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    in some cases, time is skipped through editing,
    With buff timers, spell cool down timers and whatever else editing time out of video is pretty easy to spot. Coupled with an xp report time that's accurate this is not relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    or the video starts after the quest starts..
    Invalid submission.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    not all players have rigs that can run video recording smoothly, and most importantly video quality sometimes interferes with a clearly visible timestamp and difficulty setting at the end. finally,
    Video grouped with screen shots should make quality issues null. Your talking about fastest raid groups, pretty sure someone in your raid party will be able to make video.
    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    i just don't have the time to review every video that's submitted..
    You wouldn't need to, the community would tell you if they see any funny business going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    is it favorable? yes. should it be mandatory? i'm making a ruling here and saying no.
    It is your thread after all.

  9. #9
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Tell you a funny story Ish, It was level cap 20, LOB had only been out a few weeks. There was an LFM for epic LOB and I hit it. We got inside the raid and someone asks who is tanking LOB. The party leader, a pure fighter, states that the 270 hp sorc will be the tank and that he will be healing the tank! The sorc is standing outside the arena, LOB becomes active and the sorc gets agro. Sorc stands in that same spot, toe to toe with the epic LOB for the next 15 minutes without taking even 1 point of damage. We completed in 24 minutes.

    Now if tactics like this are used, how would you ever know just from looking at an XP report? Hey, at least the completion time will be right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Never hear of fast forward? It's been around for a while now. Allows you to skip right to the end just like you say you like.

    Video allows you to see what "tactics" were used, for the lack of a better word, with all the different ways to cheat now days. Also it's a time counter that's accurate to the second.
    So, you are saying that for 1 raid entry in the new speedrun thread, Ishr should receive 12 videos? Because, how else can you prove that nobody in the group cheated? If you have 1 cameraman, he doesn't see everyone full time. That gives not seen people an opportunity to do something fishy!

  11. #11
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Tell you a funny story Ish, It was level cap 20, LOB had only been out a few weeks. There was an LFM for epic LOB and I hit it. We got inside the raid and someone asks who is tanking LOB. The party leader, a pure fighter, states that the 270 hp sorc will be the tank and that he will be healing the tank! The sorc is standing outside the arena, LOB becomes active and the sorc gets agro. Sorc stands in that same spot, toe to toe with the epic LOB for the next 15 minutes without taking even 1 point of damage. We completed in 24 minutes.

    Now if tactics like this are used, how would you ever know just from looking at an XP report? Hey, at least the completion time will be right.
    You are still right. What I think you are missing here is the practicality component of all this. Yes, you are right that the most verifiable method is to have abundant video AND screenshot evidence, etc, or even better have a 2-man team join the raid as observers to verify the entire activity (more outrageous proposals have been made). But at the end of the day, it's true that all of this can be faked with enough effort and know-how. The system worked in the past because it made submitting entries simple/quick and therefore people participated widely - that is the goal of this thread. If players had a particularly noteworthy accomplishment that they felt like sharing they would include a video too, but making it an obligation is not practical nor does it achieve the goal of fostering friendly and inclusive competition. The honor system is indeed being used to a degree here, and that's what we have to work with. In the past it hasn't been a problem, and I know it's idealistic but I hope that the strength of our community keeps it that way. I wish there was a verification process that was both foolproof and painless to submit, I really do, but this isn't the olympics.

    As an aside, I really was hoping for some responses regarding the original 3 questions posed...
    Last edited by ishr; 02-09-2014 at 05:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Community Member LawfulEvil's Avatar
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    Kudos for getting the official speedrun record thread rolling again. While I agree that having video of a speedrun may be the most desireable method of documenting a speedrun, it will never be 100% practical. Having the video as optional proof in addition to the end of quest/raid screenshots would be the best way to handle it.

  13. #13
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaatan View Post
    So, you are saying that for 1 raid entry in the new speedrun thread, Ishr should receive 12 videos? Because, how else can you prove that nobody in the group cheated? If you have 1 cameraman, he doesn't see everyone full time. That gives not seen people an opportunity to do something fishy!
    Nah, there's no way to ever make 100% cheat proof documentation. Just talking about one simple thing that most people can do without any problem. I use a program called "bandicam". It takes about 10 seconds to download and about the same to install and your ready to make movies. You are right that more people recording video makes for better documentation. When my guild does speedruns we have multiple people recording for this very reason. However in most cases just one person making video will at least show what the main tactics were.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    However in most cases just one person making video will at least show what the main tactics were.
    I disagree with the video requirement:

    First, this is competitive and therefor i would not choose to disclose my tactics for a record run. Showing my tactics in a video only gives my competition better ideas and a better chance at breaking my record. The tactics used can be shared at the description of the participants, but in no way should anyone be required to share that information. Requiring a video forces participants to give away their secrets.

    Second, as a player that runs on an outdated laptop, recording a video while running the game would lag my machine and subsequently my completion time. Requiring me to take a video removes my ability to effectively participate, and that's the direct opposite of the stated goal. We want as many people as possible to participate.
    Last edited by Shein; 02-09-2014 at 08:24 PM.
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    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Oh, I never mention that I think this is a fantastic idea. Make it happen, I'd be interested to see what pace other guilds are raiding at.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery Habreno's Avatar
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    My opinion of what to include:

    ANY Raid, soloing
    Elite Raids, solo or grouped (two categories- V5/V6 Epic any characters or Heroic max 13)
    End-Of-Chain Quests, solo (any Epic difficulty)
    End-Of-Chain EE Quests, solo or grouped.
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  17. #17
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habreno View Post
    My opinion of what to include:

    ANY Raid, soloing
    Elite Raids, solo or grouped (two categories- V5/V6 Epic any characters or Heroic max 13)
    End-Of-Chain Quests, solo (any Epic difficulty)
    End-Of-Chain EE Quests, solo or grouped.
    In keeping with prior formats, there will still be two tracks, solo speed record and group speed record. I failed to address that in my OP. I actually came to the same conclusion regarding the selection of quests, i.e. focusing on end of chain (battle for eveningstar, portal opens, etc.) I did debate the utility of including EN and EH, with I think is a mistake if we include ALL quests but actually a good idea if we include the subset that you suggested. I did have one question, why heroic cap 13? Thanks for the input I think most if not all of these will make the final cut.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Habreno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    In keeping with prior formats, there will still be two tracks, solo speed record and group speed record. I failed to address that in my OP. I actually came to the same conclusion regarding the selection of quests, i.e. focusing on end of chain (battle for eveningstar, portal opens, etc.) I did debate the utility of including EN and EH, with I think is a mistake if we include ALL quests but actually a good idea if we include the subset that you suggested. I did have one question, why heroic cap 13? Thanks for the input I think most if not all of these will make the final cut.
    Max 13 specifically in reference to Heroic V5/V6. Basically, Elite level +1 for a Heroic raid with an Epic counterpart. It's stupid to do Chrono on Elite on a level 28 just to do it a few minutes faster than someone at level, and a whole heck of a lot less challenging. That's my opinion though.
    Last edited by Habreno; 02-19-2014 at 03:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
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    BYOH. Know it, abide by it, or don't mess with those who do.

  19. #19
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habreno View Post
    Max 13 specifically in reference to Heroic V5/V6. Basically, Elite level +1 for a Heroic raid with an Epic counterpart. It's stupid to do Chrono on Elite on a level 28 just to do it a few minutes faster than someone at level, and a whole heck of a lot less challenging. That's my opinion though.
    A great idea though this would be exceedingly difficult to verify and I anticipate that the interest would be low...

  20. #20
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Maybe a section for fastest flawless completions?

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