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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    I would be ok with that. I would say the red light/green light room should have one chest, as that can be a tough one if you don't know what to expect. I didn't get to try the anti gravity room, just the red light/green light and the trap corridor.
    The red light/green light room is tough, I can actually see that being more of a nuisance than the anti grav room on epic elite, but as for normal it wasn't all that hard, but it was very fun to do!
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  2. #22
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    I managed to PUG this raid on Lama earlier today but it took quite a long time close to 3 hours. 40 minutes of it ended up being in the Anti-gravity puzzle stuck on the ceiling while we tried various fixes to get through it. Most of the group managed to remain through it and finish it though. I have to say as it stands in it's current form I really didn't find it enjoyable. I do expect as people learn the puzzles that runs will drop to an hour or less but it's going to be painful to teach to new players I can see that already. We got ingredients on our run and no named items but it was just an Epic Normal run. The ingredient drop levels seemed quite decent but that's hard to judge until I look more closely at the crafting end of the system.

    A couple of notes on my run:

    * Don't get me wrong a raid of puzzles is an intriguing concept but repeating the mirror puzzle essentially 4 times in what is apparently a fixed pattern wasn't that fun for me. I would rather see it once or at most twice done with multiple layouts to keep it interesting.

    * The second set of 6 puzzles is an interesting concept and I look forward to trying the others but I would hope they add a direct combat option too ala a wave style fight for groups who don't want to just run through puzzles for puzzles sake. We did the Portal Puzzle and the Anti-Gravity room as I said earlier and I found the Portals to be annoying but ok once the pattern was found I am not sure what the criteria really is required for reading the runes but it is a skill that limits options if you aren't a high int build from what I can see. The Anti-Gravity room keeps forcing you into a black screen since you get pushed to the ceiling or on various wall objects and you no longer have a viable point of view. Changing to a first person perspective made this a tad easier but not by much. In fact we got stuck on the ceiling and no one could hit the lever to turn gravity off. The /stuck would not work. Finally we resorted to having various people log out of the client and clear their connection and finally that managed it. I am not sure what caused that in this case but the fact that client log outs were taking upwards of 15 minutes to clear was definitely an issue.

    * The Shadow Beholder just has a terrible look. I wish that the Doomsphere look hadn't changed to that formless blob in current use. Also the raid itself needs more contrast than those purples and greys I found it very had on the eyes and while it is using that same mechanic as the mirror darkly that effect seems to just cause quite a bit of lag for me that made this raid particularly difficult in spots and I found area's that were quite jerky. I understand it's not a finished raid but I do hope that is something that can be addressed before this goes live. I also understand the theme is dark shadows and such but it is an incredibly monochromatic space and if the raid is something that is going to require long completion times that is going to be a usability issue for me. I found myself with a fair headache after completing it and I don't play a game to get a headache.

    * The final fight is complex and fiddly to my eyes and it feels like you have created a raid that takes Fall of Truth and meshed it with a bevy of puzzles ala Prove Your Worth from 3BC doubled. The plus side is there really is only one element that requires heavy timing, the problem is with the lag the mobs generated if you have a bunch of trash around when the dragon drops making that timing is just not going to happen. I am not sure the end fight needed to be quite that complex to complete but it was a relief to get a decent amount of combat after that number of puzzles. It felt almost rewarding.

    * Also add a Res shrine once the chest drops. I can see this on some runs being a resource intensive raid and that shrine really should just pop up.

    * The mobs felt easy to kill but we were on Epic Normal and it's a capped Lama toon with goodies I will likely never see on live so it's hard to judge. I wish character copy was working since I would take my current capped monk in and see how that managed in this raid.

    * The XP awarded didn't seem appropriate to the raid either. Given the number of puzzles once each completes I would like to see a scaling reward of X xp based on the puzzle choices difficulty. When you have a long raid that gives half what the XP nerfed VoN3 run gives out, it just didn't feel right.

    I look forward to seeing what changes if any are made and look forward to trying some of the other 4 optional puzzles to see which ones I would really prefer doing. I will try and get a run or two in tomorrow and see how that goes.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I do have one suggestion on how to make the mirror puzzles more of a team activity.

    Right now, people fight mobs while the mirror puzzle is done because... well, the mobs are there to fight?

    If you had the mobs spawn from a portal on one side of the area, and then attempt to move towards and try to break the light emitting crystal. That would make the defense of that crystal part of the raid (Think tower defense). Now all of a sudden, fighting the mobs has a purpose and the activity becomes a 12 person activity.
    I love that idea of defending the crystals. Just as long as they are stronger than the ones in korthos.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    also...it took far too long to get to the raid. I am not sure why you think it is fun to run around in circles killing hundreds of trash just to get to the raid. please allow a free teleport to the raid entrance.
    Another raid at the back end of an annoying explorer area ?

    Please don't tell me it's the case.

    We have already told numerous time that having to spend more than 5 minutes to reach a quest/raid from the guild ship is utterly WRONG from the player base point of view.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    Another raid at the back end of an annoying explorer area ?

    Please don't tell me it's the case.

    We have already told numerous time that having to spend more than 5 minutes to reach a quest/raid from the guild ship is utterly WRONG from the player base point of view.
    Don't focus on that. You need to run it once, and get to the raid. After that, you can use a teleporter who will take you there. The teleporter is just outside the wilderness area, she just isn't set up yet.
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  6. #26
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Don't focus on that. You need to run it once, and get to the raid. After that, you can use a teleporter who will take you there. The teleporter is just outside the wilderness area, she just isn't set up yet.
    As long as it's not a shard'porter... If so these raids are going to end up like LoB/MA or the Stormhorn/Wheloon quests: not being run.
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  7. #27
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    As long as you have the ability to port to the raid, that is great and is a must.

    While doing the explorer, I am not a fan of being able to invis run through the entire dungeon. I know some like the ability due to convenience.

    But this is supposed to end up being the top of the food chain in regard to content.

    Even on EN, you shouldn't be able to run around and do the puzzles without some sort of fight. I know it's still early, but invis+displace+ avoidiing mobs should not be the answer. I hope this is remedied before the launch.

    As has been mentioned, you will have 2 or 3 people doing puzzles, while everyone else stands and hides or runs around and hides.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    As long as you have the ability to port to the raid, that is great and is a must.

    While doing the explorer, I am not a fan of being able to invis run through the entire dungeon. I know some like the ability due to convenience.

    But this is supposed to end up being the top of the food chain in regard to content.

    Even on EN, you shouldn't be able to run around and do the puzzles without some sort of fight. I know it's still early, but invis+displace+ avoidiing mobs should not be the answer. I hope this is remedied before the launch.

    As has been mentioned, you will have 2 or 3 people doing puzzles, while everyone else stands and hides or runs around and hides.
    I don't understand how people would just do that, why make it boring for yourself? Besides, the mobs would then be going after the puzzle people. WOuldn't you want to have the rest of the party out there fighting to make it easier on the people turning mirrors? Wouldn't that make it faster?

    Edit: IDEA! What if turning the mirrors drew aggro? That would mean you would have to have the party engaged to try and keep aggro off the mirror turners. Would that work, you think?
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  9. #29
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post

    Edit: IDEA! What if turning the mirrors drew aggro? That would mean you would have to have the party engaged to try and keep aggro off the mirror turners. Would that work, you think?
    That is actually a darn good suggestion.

    As it sits right now, groups will end up using the easiest possible methods to get the completion. I can't think of an easier thing to do than to just simply invis to avoid aggro.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Don't focus on that. You need to run it once, and get to the raid. After that, you can use a teleporter who will take you there. The teleporter is just outside the wilderness area, she just isn't set up yet.
    You have to run there first time. It will be Abbot for end gamers, rarely pugged, but when u will see an LFM it will says "no first timers, know puzzles".

  11. #31
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Ran this with Steel last night. Wow. Amazing raid. I kept hearing about Squeak's party finishing first even though they started after us, couldn't figure out why. And then, when taking the survey, I discovered that there are six challenge rooms, so I am guessing they got different rooms from us. We had the trap corridor and the red light/green light room. I didn't think the mobs where that bad, until we got to that room. Between the insane damage and the lag from SO MANY mobs, I think we tallied most of our 93 deaths in that room (granted one guy died 18 times, all of them due to some bug, he even died after shrining right before we went to the boss fight....)

    Overall, I love the concept, I love the puzzles, and now that I know there are four other challenge rooms I haven't been in yet, I love this even more. This was probably the most fun I've had in a quest in a long time. Even my first VoN run, while I enjoyed it, wasn't fun. It was a lot of sitting around, frustration, etc. This was pure awesome.

    We even got one named item out of the quest, from the bone guardian's chest. I can see my assassin wanting this bad boy:



    All in all, I only have two bits that I would change (outside of the light beam killing you and the mirrors just stopping reflecting sometimes). Add in a shrine somewhere in the middle area. It would be tough to say where, maybe after the Bone Guardian, maybe in the room where you choose your second challenge room, no idea. The other would be more chests. End game raid, three chests total. Now, I am sure there area a few more on EE, but a small normal chest at the end of each challenge room could be nice as well, with a smaller chance to drop a named item and a guarantee on ingredients drops.
    How could you possibly enjoy doing the mirror puzzle over and over and over again? What is the point of doing it 4 or 5 times in a row other than to waste people's time and bore them? What did you find enjoyable in it? Also, the anti-grav room...how is it fun getting stuck in the ceiling and seeing pure black? DCs for the spikes are in the 70s on EN and it takes a long time. What am i missing here? Please help!
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  12. #32
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    How could you possibly enjoy doing the mirror puzzle over and over and over again? What is the point of doing it 4 or 5 times in a row other than to waste people's time and bore them? What did you find enjoyable in it? Also, the anti-grav room...how is it fun getting stuck in the ceiling and seeing pure black? DCs for the spikes are in the 70s on EN and it takes a long time. What am i missing here? Please help!
    I can't say anything on the anti-grav room, I have run it three times now and have not gotten this room yet. So, no opinion on that.

    The mirrors, well, I like puzzles. And it was a different set up in each level, with different solutions and angles. Puzzles are something I enjoy. The rest of my group was sitting there bored, they were fighting the mobs, keeping them away from myself and the two to three others doing the mirrors. I like stuff that makes my brain work, not just mindless "Hold down attack button, spam magic, manyshot" nonstop fighting we have gotten out of every pack since Druid's Curse...
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  13. #33
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    You have to run there first time. It will be Abbot for end gamers, rarely pugged, but when u will see an LFM it will says "no first timers, know puzzles".
    Yep. It will be a raid that 90%+ don't run.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    I can't say anything on the anti-grav room, I have run it three times now and have not gotten this room yet. So, no opinion on that.

    The mirrors, well, I like puzzles. And it was a different set up in each level, with different solutions and angles. Puzzles are something I enjoy. The rest of my group was sitting there bored, they were fighting the mobs, keeping them away from myself and the two to three others doing the mirrors. I like stuff that makes my brain work, not just mindless "Hold down attack button, spam magic, manyshot" nonstop fighting we have gotten out of every pack since Druid's Curse...
    So 2-3 will like it (the first few times they run until thry figure it out then it will be boring for all) and the other 9-10 are bored stiff? Great design!
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    Yep. It will be a raid that 90%+ don't run.
    End game players are always saying that there is nothing for them and the only real choice is to TR - which they dont want to do. Now they will have something while the rest of us are TRing !

    I like the idea of puzzles. I like dungeons and raids to test a number of different skills. But as others have said, there needs to be something for everyone to do at all times. So if 3 or 4 are on puzzles, the rest should be dealing with trash who are trying to disrupt the puzzle-doers.

  16. #36
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    So 2-3 will like it (the first few times they run until thry figure it out then it will be boring for all) and the other 9-10 are bored stiff? Great design!
    Except, so far, the majority of people have had nothing but good things to say about it.

    I really don't get it. Everyone complains that there is nothing to do. Everyone wants something different. The devs bust their ass making a great looking quest with unique mechanics, puzzles that make you think, rooms you have to plan to get through, and what happens? People complain because it's boring, not enough fighting, too many puzzles, too different. I'm starting to think you bunch just want rooms filled with mobs that you can blast through in a few minutes and get good loot guaranteed in the end chest. It's pathetic. Maybe if your mindset wasn't "Let's get through this quickly so we can run other stuff as quickly as possible and get loots so we can beat the other people who don't have the loot yet, so let's all invis and stand in a corner because we don't feel like actually participating in the quest" you would enjoy it more.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    How about this:

    Keep the trash mobs the way they are now, throw in the random orange named shadow hag or Eye of Shadow. Make it so that turning mirrors aggros mobs, so some of the party is having to keep the constantly respawning trash off the mirror turners. Meanwhile, each second level (the shadow realm ones) should have a purple named boss to fight off, something powerful, something that can take several minutes to defeat. This would require some of the party to continue beating down trash, some of the party on the purple named (progression isn't possible without beating it) and two to three working mirrors. Chest for the purple named mobs, chance of dropping named item OR ingredients.

    There, now everyone has something to do.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Except, so far, the majority of people have had nothing but good things to say about it.

    I really don't get it. Everyone complains that there is nothing to do. Everyone wants something different. The devs bust their ass making a great looking quest with unique mechanics, puzzles that make you think, rooms you have to plan to get through, and what happens? People complain because it's boring, not enough fighting, too many puzzles, too different. I'm starting to think you bunch just want rooms filled with mobs that you can blast through in a few minutes and get good loot guaranteed in the end chest. It's pathetic. Maybe if your mindset wasn't "Let's get through this quickly so we can run other stuff as quickly as possible and get loots so we can beat the other people who don't have the loot yet, so let's all invis and stand in a corner because we don't feel like actually participating in the quest" you would enjoy it more.
    It's not that complicated. People want a) fun, b) good loot, c) to have a useful and interesting role, d) to be able to do the raid in a reasonable amount of time. Some people even like a challenge. Doing the same type of puzzle 5 times is like watching paint dry. Only a few people are needed and the others don't have interesting roles. Standing on a rune and bouncing off the ceiling for 25 minutes is not fun. The reason Shroud is the king of raids is it meets all the above criteria (except d... Shroud would be far better if there was no phase 4). I dont like to just beat down mobs. Why do raids have to feel like work or a chore though? Is there an unwritten rule they arent allowed to be fun?
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leclaire1 View Post

    The first part, as others have said, needs some work as the challenge isn't too high. I don't mind one person doing the puzzles, esp as that will go fast once people learn them, but adding more challenging mobs, red names, and making the dragon's ranged attacks more deadly and more frequent would make this phase more interesting. The second and third parts are absolutely fantastic. Great work Steelstar and company! Thanks for the run also those who ran in Stormz group.
    Does it have a typical raid-lock-out mechanic or is it like CITW where you can join at any point without ever getting locked out? If it's more like CITW for the first portion I'd recommend keeping that first bit easy and relaxed, because then you can start without waiting to fill completely. I really like the ability to do this for CITW and Vault of Night.

    If the 2nd and 3rd part have convoluted mechanics this is going to be an ears-only raid for me.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    It's not that complicated. People want a) fun, b) good loot, c) to have a useful and interesting role, d) to be able to do the raid in a reasonable amount of time.
    A) Fun is subjective. My favorite quests are ones most people hate. Crucible, The Pit, Study in Sable, Prove Your Worth. I like quests that AREN'T just about how awesome my loot is or how hard I can hit, but focus on other skills...this is D&D after all. That being said, this raid has a fair amount of balance for different playstyles. The DPS types can constantly plow through the respawning mobs, while the puzzle lovers can do the mirrors. There are six challenge rooms in the raid, four of which will be available at random. Have someone with a high intel or a dwarf read the runes that tell you which room is which, if you see the anti-grav room there, skip it. Go to a different room. There are 5 other possibilities. The end fight even has the option for DPS'ers to just wail on a shadow dragon and respawning mobs, while the puzzley-minded people can work the phylactery part out. Then it's just a beat down and good timing after that. Have two people keeping the aggro of the shadows, two people on levers, rest on the dragon.

    B) We don't know all the loot so far, as it isn't available. I have only seen one named item from this raid drop, the item with the +4 to assassinate on it. Other than the ingredients, we just don't know what's coming up next.

    C) As stated above, there are roles in this quest. DPS can clear trash, someone can do puzzles, tank can hold dragon aggro or draw away from mirror users.

    D) Again, subjective. I personally don't think 20 minutes is a reasonable amount of time for a raid. Raids are the upper tier of quests, they should be challenging, engaging and lengthy enough to justify the loot you get at the end. VoN 5+6, Shroud (back in the day), CitW, that's about the sweet spot for a raid, time wise. 45 minutes to an hour, if not a little more. Yes, the first run through of this quest will take sometime, however, after that, it's going to fly by. I assume this will end up being in the 30-45 minute run time.

    Now, what raid in the game do YOU think is the absolute best? One where all playstyles, not just your own, have a role?
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