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  1. #61
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Seriously I just need like... 2 more feats for my pally and he'll be grand. (Hint the breakoff point for a pally is 14 or 15 max. Anything more and ur just crippling yourself for dmg. OR! If I could be able to mix 4 classes together that to would solve the problem.

    OR! You give my pally levels extra enhancement points and that to could solve some problems.
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  2. #62
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    Sign me up! I'll play a halfling paladin with that option!
    all good would make quite a team but just remember your in charge of hjealing your mount!!!!!

  3. #63
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Agreed. Which is why virtually all of my suggestions (toward the top of this page) are centered around bringing paladin dps into "still not great but at least worth playing" territory. The only bone I threw to tanking was to add in native tower shield and bastard sword proficiency.
    True I guess it shows how different eyes see different things I read this thread and saw time and time again cries for maor dps.......norge reads it and sees most people saying paladin dps is fine but need to only improve tanking?

  4. #64
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    agreed

    It would not matter if Paladins were invincible in EE content if they can't do any damage.

    Gone are the days of the TWF DPS Paladin yielding Greensteal Khopesh

    As far as the Joist like ability I could see it easily being some type of charging Shield ram knowdown/stun
    Agreed even the *tanks* should be able to do some damage and it would have to be considerable for EE, if they where going to make them invincible they would need better aggro to be even slightly useful, not much point if its only going to get aggro once all the party members are dead and its going to take weeks to kill all the mobs. If they can do some decent damage keep aggro and keep up it could make them useful, other melees would have an easier time, and casters and ranged would not have to run backwards and jump all over the place.

    Thats for the more tankish specced paladins, the more dps specced paladins should be in the same ball park as the other melee dps focused classes. As it is now their dps is crappy no matter what they do, in fact its sad to do a paladin life I only take 7-9 paladin levels and hardly invest anything into the paladin trees because whats available in the other classes are so much better. That is just sad that I make a toon with 5-7 dead levels and feel its more powerful than my character was with 14+ paladin levels mainly focused in the paladin tree.............

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Devs if you are reading this I disagree with most of these posters the problem with paladins has little to do with tanking being inadequate or defense it has 100% has to do with offense. The only people that still play paladins or have played paladins for the most part over the last few years were defensive oriented players hence their feedback will be skewed. What paladin needs is a serious offensive option. Tanking will come and go, but there needs to be consistency between the classes. Several classes should be able to tank and all classes should be able to do dps. These posters want Paladins to be a tanking class whereas in D&D paladins are actually an offensive oriented class. You look at the paladin in D&D and they do the biggest single damage attack for a melee in all of pnp. DDO has failed for a long time in replicating the paladin of D&D lore.

    I favor removing intimidate from paladins and removing sacred defender which is a DDO creation. Paladins are not tanks in D&D. Heavy armor does not = tank in D&D. Put some real offensive prestige enhancements for paladins. The smite should do more damage in DDO. It should do 3 times what it currently does so 30k or so in fury of the wild sounds about right. I want a prestige enhancement which is about fighting evil and boosts the smite to 3 times what it currently does. I want a prestige enhancement which gives paladins some sort of joust like ability - how about a reach weapon for this paladin prestige. The third paladin prestige should be more about utility and self sufficiency.
    I think you're reading or responding to a different thread than this one. Almost every suggesting that I see in this thread deals with increasing the DPS or some of the utility abilities of Paladins.

    The only thing that comes close to the Tank aspect of Paladins is the stupidly inflated AP costs in both trees. I think everyone agrees that the cost is too high in both trees. And although the Devs dropped the AP in the trees before it hit live, they still left the AP at the stupidly high level that it was prior to the new Enhancement System.

    Edit: Okay, there was also suggestions to make Medium and Heavy Armor better. But that suggestion has merit also since 6 levels of Monk and Earth stance is equal or better to full ranks of tanking Paladin.
    Last edited by oradafu; 02-08-2014 at 04:10 PM.

  6. #66
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Been thinking about how to respond for a couple of days and I am a little late to the party. Recently I was involved in EE run that had a 18/2 Pally/Fight Defender build to go along with my TWF Pally Hybrid build. At the end of the quest the other Pally sent me a tell asking "What the hell am I doing wrong?" "I followed X build on the Forums but I died like 20 times, was out killed by misadventure and spend the second half the quest sulking".
    Well let's see, you are wearing White Dragonplate, carrying Bastion, wielding a long sword, and ended the quest with a full blue bar.... I didn't see a single Smite Evil of any sort and I had to baby sit your red bar because you couldn't be bothered to heal your self. Did I miss anything?

    A Paladin is a champion of justice and destroyer of evil, protected and strengthened by an array of divine powers. See the Player's Handbook.

    I have been playing Paladins since basically the game was released, I currently have a THF Elf Paladin, a Dwarf Paladin Tank and TWF Paladin Hybrid (she's more of a trapper). Each of these characters at one point in the game was the "ultimate" in build of the day/month/week but the game has passed them all by, even though I wished it hadn't.

    IMHO the biggest problem with Paladins is the fact they are so front loaded and their increase in abilities, DPS, Tanking, whatever diminish or lessen as a character levels up. For example my THF Falchion wielding Elf Paladin at level three out DPS's most characters and by level twelve I'm pretty equal footing at level 16 I am falling behind and at level 20 I am out of the race. By level 28 I am just piking.

    Adding to the problem for Paladin's is the fact they are four, five, or six stat class. There is no dump stat. I cannot just max out Str and put most of my remaining points in Con and a couple points here or there to make a good character, every stat point is ultra important.

    Now add in the fact that many/most/all Paladin's are feat starved, even you plan jane defender build really is one feat short once you add in tower shield. TWF Fighting needs what three/four more feats.

    Next add in the fact that Paladin's are pigeon holed by their enhancments, my defender has to have a heavy armor and shield, I cannot build a dex based twf elf pally, without multi-classing and ...

    With those problems Paladin's start behind the eight ball and really that leads to other problems for many characters.

    So the question becomes how to fix Paladin's

    Paladins need a system similar to a Ranger's "Favored Enemy"
    Aberrations, Chaotic Evil, Outsiders, and Undead (maybe break up outsiders).

    Scared Defender - Enhancement Tree
    Somewhere in this tree the "Tower Shield Feat" needs to be auto added to Pally's, probably around Core 3-Scared Defense
    Sacred Armor Mastery needs to be 5/10/20 AC and 2/4/6 Max Dex Bonus (if you put it up to cost 2 AP with those changes I wouldn't argue too much.)
    Bulwork aura needs to be tied into your characters Pally level (+1/+3/+5 per every 5 levels of Pally and per 2 Levels of unyielding sentinel)
    Tier 4 needs something for PJ wearing Defender Builds
    Finally characters here need the ability to massively improve their hate generation (intimidate as well as hate multipliers) maybe a enhancement that allows SaD to multiple their Damage Output by their Intimidate score to determine hate generation.
    Using the Favored Enemy function I would add in an enhancement line that targets a Paladin's Favored Enemies for Attack and Damage


    Knight of the Chalice
    If you add in a Favored Enemy System for Paladin's fixing KotC is fairly easy
    Slayer of Evil 1 - Gain +2 Attack and 1d6 Damage against Paladin's Favored Enemies
    Slayer of Evil 2 - Gain +2 (+4) Attack and 1d6 (2d6) Damage against Paladin's Favored Enemies
    Slayer of Evil 3 - Gain +4 (+8) Attack and 2d6 (4d6) Damage against Paladin's Favored Enemies
    Champion of Good - Gain +4 (+12) Attack and 2d6 (6d6) Damage against Paladin's Favored Enemies

    Divine Might - Gain a Damage Bonus equal to your Charisma Bonus for 30/60/120 seconds (has to stack with gear)
    Obviously I would add in some Attack and Defense things against Favored Enemies

    Feats
    Somehow the Feat issue effecting Paladin's has to be addressed. Fixing the needed feat for Tanking can be addressed by adding Tower Shields to the Enhancement, but TWF and THF fighting still are at least one feat short and many builds two. Maybe a KotC has a enhancement line for either TWF/THF that grants feats.

    Stats
    Good Luck.

    Back to the Pally Defender who felt like a piker.
    When DDO introduced Velah to the world it started the end of the Tanking Aspects of the game. A Non Mobile monster what's the point of Tanking, while many of our mobs now-a-days are mobile. they have little agro control and agro resets and ... well tanking just isn't that important in DDO, but ... With so many Defenders in poor defender gear making poor choices using poor weapons, not using their smites/divine sacrifice/ and other attacks you are nothing more than a piker.

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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    Maybe a KotC has a enhancement line for either TWF/THF that grants feats.
    I don't hate this idea.

  8. #68
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    By level 28 I am just piking.
    Let's forget monksplashes and furyshotters for a while.
    Is a well played paladin with decent gear ( aka Black set, Citw weapons or whatever etc, not the monstrosity you described ) in Fury or LD that much behind rangers/ bards/ rogues or whatnot ?
    I find that hard to believe.
    Enhancements could use more offense but there is no "fixing" if you choose basically piking destiny, piking gear and don't self heal/ buff ( GH, Tenser, displaces, boosts ... ).
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  9. #69
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Outside of turtleing up there is little reason to have shields in the game. This isn't chest pounding a DPS philosophy, just an observation about the game we were given.
    Then that’s a problem. You can say, “I’m just playing the game that I am given,” but the reality is that this is a thread that whose specialty is complaining about the game we’ve been given. And if shields are useless for melee in the game that we’ve been given, that this is a problem that needs to be addressed…specifically as it deals with paladins.

    While this is a fantasy game, it is important to note that in real-life combat of this type, a shield was almost mandatory. It covered are large percentage of your vital areas, and was for first and most important line of defense. Blocking blows with a two-handed weapon sounds cool, but in application: it’s laughable. However, we have a game that treats blocking with a two-handed weapon almost on-par with blocking with a shield.

    In reality if you were using a pole-arm or a long lance, one the enemy got past the tip of that weapon, you were basically screwed. There was no “blocking” per se. These weapons are unwieldy things that require a lot of room to maneuver, and a lot of skill to operate effectively in the manner DDO presents them.

    Plus, another part of the problem is Shield Bash. Shield Bashing, as far as I can tell, only does damage. The reality is that a shield bash should also proc a stun, or even knock a mob off-balance (either directly, or as a follow-up for a Trip).

    Separating shields from tanks, and giving all the benefits over to THF / TWF doesn’t solve any problems. It only makes the combat system of anemic than it is right now.

    So the shield benes should stay linked to the PrE, if only for this reason alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Fighters will out-dps Paladins with ease. Fighters get power surge (+8 stacking strength; pallies need 32 cha to break even with divine might), +2 crit range, access to weapons specialization feats (adds damage per swing that multiplies with crits) and a damage line in their dps tree (also multiplies with crits.) Plus fighters get effective stunning blow, and every time that lands their dps is multiplied by 1.5. And a pure fighter gets 15% doublestrike 24/7, which puts zeal to shame. And don't forget haste boost, which they can easily get 11 or 12 of per rest.

    All the dps suggestions I made upthread might put pallies in the same ballpark as fighters, but nowhere near better.
    The response I was making was that giving your average THF HotD / KotC all of the defensive benefits of the SD line without having a shield E-A-S-I-L-Y makes them better fighters than fighters. Maybe using “DPS” wasn’t the best term to use, but the reality is that the pally would have all of these offensive benefits, and loads of self-healing, buffing, and lovely saves to boot. While the fighter is getting mauled, the pally isn’t getting touched. When he does, he throws a LoH, and keeps swinging. The fighter will be dead (because of no self-healing and lower saves), the paladin will still be in the fight. It will nullify the need for fighters at that point. All of that lovely damage you’re doing means next to nothing in a protracted fight if you can’t heal yourself, or mitigate damage.

    You are responding to things as they exist now, not the “what if” scenario I was addressing.

    And even if you were addressing the “what if” scenario, the reality is that unless the changes were implemented, suggested by the person I was addressing, neither you nor I could prove things one way or the other.

    And it still doesn’t address the fact that people need to be *forced* into S&B thorough SD and US for it to be an effective play style. That is a problem that a lot of people just outright ignore.

  10. #70
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Is a well played paladin with decent gear ( aka Black set, Citw weapons or whatever etc, not the monstrosity you described ) in Fury or LD that much behind rangers/ bards/ rogues or whatnot ?
    Yes.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The response I was making was that giving your average THF HotD / KotC all of the defensive benefits of the SD line without having a shield E-A-S-I-L-Y makes them better fighters than fighters. Maybe using “DPS” wasn’t the best term to use, but the reality is that the pally would have all of these offensive benefits, and loads of self-healing, buffing, and lovely saves to boot. While the fighter is getting mauled, the pally isn’t getting touched. When he does, he throws a LoH, and keeps swinging. The fighter will be dead (because of no self-healing and lower saves), the paladin will still be in the fight. It will nullify the need for fighters at that point. All of that lovely damage you’re doing means next to nothing in a protracted fight if you can’t heal yourself, or mitigate damage.
    I don't see people asking for all the dps of fighters plus all the defense of the tanking tree for free. I'd like to see pallies get most of the dps of fighters OR the tanking tree. Right now pally dps isn't remotely on par with fighters, and the suggestions in this thread would still leave pally dps behind fighters.

  12. #72
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Let's forget monksplashes and furyshotters for a while.
    Is a well played paladin with decent gear ( aka Black set, Citw weapons or whatever etc, not the monstrosity you described ) in Fury or LD that much behind rangers/ bards/ rogues or whatnot ?
    I find that hard to believe.
    Enhancements could use more offense but there is no "fixing" if you choose basically piking destiny, piking gear and don't self heal/ buff ( GH, Tenser, displaces, boosts ... ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yes.
    Paladins don't have any where near the number of feat or anything that can really make up for +20% offhand proc, and +1 threat range that Ranger and Fighters have. Rogues have so much sneak attack its not even close. They might beat Bards but Bards have a much better spell list at least.

    Paladins have very week trees on a weak base class. The base class is Feat tight and has no "killer app" Smites are mostly a joke, unlike say Monk which is not quite feat tight but has stunning fist and quivering palm.

    Warpriest is a better tree then the current Paladin trees.

    You could build something with a Paladin icon that nears Ranger/Bard/Rogues but you wouldn't be using much from the actual Paladin class.

  13. #73
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    i play a pure paladin as one of my mains and i'm not embarassed

    so many people saying "buff what i like so i can be uber and i can forget i have issues with my dad" but what actually they like is to be uber; otherwise you go flavour without caring about the monkcher standing nexto you.


    if you like paladins, play paladins period.

    OTOH - pallys need love IF we want a balanced game. I would actually like a pally buff, as a bard and barb buff. Guess how many classes i play of those ? (hint: 1)
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    Quote Originally Posted by lugoman View Post
    Please set the minimum to a negative number so some classes can generate love. There is too much hate in the world.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by harry-pancreas View Post
    so many people saying "buff what i like so i can be uber and i can forget i have issues with my dad"
    I don't see anyone saying that, except of course you.

    Everyone in this thread is talking about balance. This should go without saying.

  15. #75
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harry-pancreas View Post
    i play a pure paladin as one of my mains and i'm not embarassed

    so many people saying "buff what i like so i can be uber and i can forget i have issues with my dad" but what actually they like is to be uber; otherwise you go flavour without caring about the monkcher standing nexto you.


    if you like paladins, play paladins period.

    OTOH - pallys need love IF we want a balanced game. I would actually like a pally buff, as a bard and barb buff. Guess how many classes i play of those ? (hint: 1)
    So your solution to the paladin issue is "lower your standards"?
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 02-10-2014 at 02:52 PM.

  16. #76
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Let's forget monksplashes and furyshotters for a while.
    Is a well played paladin with decent gear ( aka Black set, Citw weapons or whatever etc, not the monstrosity you described ) in Fury or LD that much behind rangers/ bards/ rogues or whatnot ?
    I find that hard to believe.
    Enhancements could use more offense but there is no "fixing" if you choose basically piking destiny, piking gear and don't self heal/ buff ( GH, Tenser, displaces, boosts ... ).
    If you need to ask this, clearly you don't have played a paladin and feel the grief...
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  17. #77
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Let's forget monksplashes and furyshotters for a while.
    Is a well played paladin with decent gear ( aka Black set, Citw weapons or whatever etc, not the monstrosity you described ) in Fury or LD that much behind rangers/ bards/ rogues or whatnot ?
    I find that hard to believe.
    Enhancements could use more offense but there is no "fixing" if you choose basically piking destiny, piking gear and don't self heal/ buff ( GH, Tenser, displaces, boosts ... ).
    having played one yes. and including ranger and bard, bard at least has 95% CC's if things go south, longer displacements, better heals, higher umd. Ranger has all those feats the double strike, and great ranged damage, can get that on a pally but you have to splash often heavily.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So your solution to the paladin is is "lower your standards"?
    right now ? yeah

    or whine with a stronger reason than "the guy nexto me is more uberz"
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...te-Threat-Gear

    Quote Originally Posted by lugoman View Post
    Please set the minimum to a negative number so some classes can generate love. There is too much hate in the world.

  19. #79
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harry-pancreas View Post
    right now ? yeah

    or whine with a stronger reason than "the guy nexto me is more uberz"
    errm so trying to have at least some game balance is wrong? I don't get what your point is. I see very little whinging in here, except from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I don't see anyone saying that, except of course you.

    Everyone in this thread is talking about balance. This should go without saying.
    actually i am not lol i play my pally hiting 50 damage each swing at level 28 and i'm happy with it

    i don't want to attack the OP, and i agree with the basics but he is actually saying he's ashamed of playing his pally and i think if we say "i'm ahsamed playing this, buff it please" we lose the point, is a poor argument and too self-centered. Pallys need love cause they're UP, not cause someone is embarassed when plays them lol

    and why someone would ever be ashamed about a comp game ? I'm actually trying to tell OP is not embarassing to play a paladin, it's hard so it should be eactly the oposite. I do x quest with a FoTM build, i'm good. I do it with a pally, i'm a ****ing uber player (player, not character or build, there is a difference that DDO peeps seem to not understand)

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    errm so trying to have at least some game balance is wrong? I don't get what your point is. I see very little whinging in here, except from you.

    i whine about the whining, true, that's contradictory (who isnt ?)

    and no, talking about game balance is not wrong as i said, but -read above the quote of your post-
    Last edited by harry-pancreas; 02-10-2014 at 02:56 PM.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...te-Threat-Gear

    Quote Originally Posted by lugoman View Post
    Please set the minimum to a negative number so some classes can generate love. There is too much hate in the world.

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