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  1. #1
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Default How to fix Paladins

    To the hell with the other classes!!!

    Paladin class need love years before them (bards!? best CC ingame for years; barbs!? u kidding me right? take a ticket bro!)

    If there is a class worth it and long time forgotten is the pally.

    Why?

    1. Pure and light split pally DPS suxs. Really. No argument.

    2. The other rol... tank... useless and not optimal. A monk is better tank.

    3. Feat starved class. 0 versatility. If a class has 0% versatility at less make it good at what he does, no?

    You can think... hey buddy but there is buch of builds with pally split, they can't be that bad!

    /hit in the face with open palm

    the first 2-4 levels are the only worth it, more levels on that class and you are gimping the build.

    You can think... hey buddy but they have self healing!

    /hit in the knee

    Compared with the other options, nowdays, it suxs plain and simple. Reconstruction on BF? Cocoon?

    I want to play pure paladin without feeling embarrased devs!!

    Suggestions:

    1. Make the capstones and core worth it. KotC is so lame that i don't know how to handle it. Maybe if the capstone was... +1 to crit to the smite evil? It seems fair and worth it

    2. Add more spells please, the list is so short...

    3. Change DM, erease it from the tier2 and put it on the core at lvl 12 or superior.

    4. Make the defensive stance work without shield.

    5. Not urgent but add a new tree... maybe one focused on Spells/SLA DC... the Witch Hunter??

    /angry face off

    /big baby eyes wide open on

    Pally class need love devs, pretty please!?
    Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  2. #2
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Been saying this for YEARS.
    1.) Yes, spell list is too short
    2.) Divine Favor should go up to +5 and not +3.
    3.) Using scrolls should not cause a loss in HP. I mean really. One of the things about a paladin was a decent UMD to use heal scrolls, increasing their survivability. Now we can't use them to top our selves off.
    4.) Tanking is useless in EE. I love the fact it works out rather well in EN and EH, but in EE content there is no point. A tank's survivability is basically 0 in most EE. If they don't want to be a tank, their other options (KotC) add such a laughable increase to DPS that there is no point in that either.
    5.) Their trees are extremely expensive compared to other classes. Most other classes can almost fill two trees, a paladin can't come close to doing that.
    6.) Most other classes gain an extreme ability in being able to twist in Primal Scream...useless for paladins in stance.
    7.) Part of the appeal before with a paladin was a melee who specialized in survivability. Now a DPS speced battle cleric and do massive amount of more damage than a paladin AND have better healing/survivability.
    8.) They are being pigeon holed. Basically, the dev's decided to make paladins the tank of the game (along with defender fighters....a little more on that later). The issue with that is, it relates to issue number 4. A paladin doesn't really have the ability to contribute as much. A fighter has the ability to go Kensai and be DPS. Barbs are pigeon holed as well, but they still work rather well in EE content. Paladins do not.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    6.) Most other classes gain an extreme ability in being able to twist in Primal Scream...useless for paladins in stance.
    Originally, as I recall, this was changed because people were stacking the +6 strength with rage effects and using two-handed weapons. Now that a shield is required for the +6 strength they should consider removing the rage restriction.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    - Remove the level-Cap on Divine Favor.
    - Remove the level-cap on Cure Serious Wounds (also helps rangers and bards)
    - Change Divine Might back to a pure damage bonus - the STR bump is stupid and makes the concept of a DEX or CON based pally viable.
    - Remove the insanely stupid "must have shield" stuff from the defender stances.
    - MOAR SMITES!
    - Change game mechanics so S&B tanks aren't terrible.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    - Remove the level-Cap on Divine Favor.
    - Remove the level-cap on Cure Serious Wounds (also helps rangers and bards)
    - Change Divine Might back to a pure damage bonus - the STR bump is stupid and makes the concept of a DEX or CON based pally viable.
    - Remove the insanely stupid "must have shield" stuff from the defender stances.
    - MOAR SMITES!
    - Change game mechanics so S&B tanks aren't terrible.
    /signed


    Wait... New community guidelines....

    I agree with what the above poster has said and feel they would improved defender builds significantly.

  6. #6
    Founder & Hero Steiner-Davion's Avatar
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    I'd also like to see Paladin Lay on Hands regenerate as well.

    Bards can get their Songs to regen via enhancements. Turn Undead regens.

    It doesn't have ot be crazy fast, but it should happen.

    And finally, I agree the Paladin Trees are wicked expensive. most things should only cost 1 AP.

  7. #7
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    I would like to help give you ideas. but my post might allow turbine to reserve the right to take appropriate actions if they feel any post, thread, or comment is, in the sole discretion of the Turbine Community team, inappropriate for their forums or sites, even if it is not specifically called out in their guidelines, sorry

  8. #8
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Agree to all of the above - yet most of it still only adds survivability (no level cap on CSW, regen LOH, etc) which is not really the pally's main problem. I really don't see them going back on the DM change using CHA.

    I think one way would be to allow a Pally to spend AP to get both Hunter of the Dead and the Evil Outsider bonuses, rather than 1 or the other. This would be closer to a Ranger's multiple FE. Make it two seperate trees so they can spend AP in both.

    EDIT - As mentioned previously reduce the AP cost on some of the Pally enhancements.

  9. #9
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Paladins do have the ability to regen their LOH. I get one back every 90 seconds.

    One thing that has always bugged me was their complete disregard to a paladins mount in this game. It was one of the major components to a PnP Paladin. I know they couldn't fit an actual mount in the game. But, they did include companions and other creatures that would fight for you. Why can't a paladin have a celestial war dog or something to that effect where they can issue commands to help them in combat or pull levers etc. The celestial war horse in PnP was a SMART animal. They could even share spells with paladins later in the game....think about it in this game. A dog that can cast cure serious wounds on you....it can auto cast divine might, divine favor, on you so you don't lose DPS by casting them on yourself.
    Officer - Eternal Wrath
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  10. #10
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Been saying this for YEARS.
    And yet nobody hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    5.) Their trees are extremely expensive compared to other classes. Most other classes can almost fill two trees, a paladin can't come close to doing that.
    yep, this would help too

    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    6.) Most other classes gain an extreme ability in being able to twist in Primal Scream...useless for paladins in stance.
    This is not terrible, the worst part is not being able to use adrenaline+smite. Make the tank paladins still more gimps.

    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Barbs are pigeon holed as well, but they still work rather well in EE content. Paladins do not.
    Barbs are in the same level nowdays... they both sux. But they were the king of the mountain back then so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    - Remove the level-Cap on Divine Favor.
    - Remove the level-cap on Cure Serious Wounds (also helps rangers and bards)
    - Change Divine Might back to a pure damage bonus - the STR bump is stupid and makes the concept of a DEX or CON based pally viable.
    - Remove the insanely stupid "must have shield" stuff from the defender stances.
    - MOAR SMITES!
    - Change game mechanics so S&B tanks aren't terrible.
    i'm agreed with all points but the level cap in CSW, it don't solve the problem, it is very expensive spell for a pally. I think it would be better (more equal to the other options) if they just give us HEAL as a lvl 4 spell granted at lvl 18 core for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steiner-Davion View Post
    I'd also like to see Paladin Lay on Hands regenerate as well.
    agreed too
    Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  11. #11
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I think one way would be to allow a Pally to spend AP to get both Hunter of the Dead and the Evil Outsider bonuses, rather than 1 or the other. This would be closer to a Ranger's multiple FE. Make it two seperate trees so they can spend AP in both.
    This dont solve anything, people keep saying the same but at the end if they change it and they merged the two bonuses, to undeads and evil outsiders, still they'll be insuficient. Seriously, +4 att +4d6 at this stage of the game don't solve anything. DPS will be very low for a pally against those foes compared with other better classes. I think that the bonuses should be added to the base damage instead at least.
    Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  12. #12
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    1) Give them 3 Bonus Feat at 6/12/18 chose from either combat style feat or metamagic feat.

    2) More Spells, and possibly add 5 and 6 level spells.

    The reason for these changes is that a Paladin in 3.5 sucks the best Paladin was Prestige Paladin class found in Unearthed Arcana who was 4 Fighter (3 Feat) 1 Cleric who counted as a 9 there level Cleric for spells (5th level spells)

  13. #13
    Founder & Hero Steiner-Davion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Paladins do have the ability to regen their LOH. I get one back every 90 seconds.
    Is it from an Enhancement or Epic Destiny? Because the only place I've seen it possible is via the Unyielding Sentinel ED.

  14. #14
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    We should just delete pallys, bards, and barbs from the game.

    Allow a rage ability for fighters in light armor. There's your barb.

    Warpriest is closer to pally anyway, so just modify that slightly and Bob's your uncle.

    Nobody would miss bards, except for maybe the 2 dozen people still playing them.

    Easy peasey, and you have a much simpler game as well.

    Everyone else can just splash monk and be happy.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    - Remove the level-Cap on Divine Favor.
    - Remove the level-cap on Cure Serious Wounds (also helps rangers and bards)
    - Change Divine Might back to a pure damage bonus - the STR bump is stupid and makes the concept of a DEX or CON based pally viable.
    - Remove the insanely stupid "must have shield" stuff from the defender stances.
    - MOAR SMITES!
    - Change game mechanics so S&B tanks aren't terrible.
    This covers a good portion of things that would help.

    Other things:
    - Faster recharging of Smites without Twisting an ED (although this function seems to be broken)
    - Being about to Recharge Lay On Hands without Twisting an ED
    - Merging the Evil Outsider and Undead damage of Slayer of Evil
    - Add Great Smiting to the Epic Feat list at level 21
    - Add Epic Divine Might to the Epic Feat list also
    - Change the Sacred Defense's STR and CON bonuses to a Moral bonus, since Rage doesn't work with the stance and Bards can't multiclass with Paladins
    - Give the new Divine Might a new name (Divine Strength perhaps) and give it the Sacred bonus
    - Fix Holy Sword so that it becomes at least a Paragon weapon, although being able to make it an Epic weapon at level 20 should be done also
    - Add a recharging general damage boosting ability with a short cooldown to one of the trees, something as similar to the base Smite Foe from Warpriest
    - While in Sacred Defender stance, weapons gain +1[W] damage; if equipping shield, main weapon gains +2[W] damage


    I'm sure I'm forget some other things, but those things should help

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Paladins do have the ability to regen their LOH. I get one back every 90 seconds.
    The only way you gain LOH is if you are in the Unyielding Sentinel ED with Endless Lay on Hands or twist the third tier Endless Lay On Hands. So Paladins do not innately have the ability to recharge their Lay on Hands.

  17. #17
    Founder Firepants's Avatar
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    I think a part of the Paladin's problem is similar to the Barb's; damage and hit points have escalated but defensive abilities have not been scaled to compensate. Most of the fault here is the underlying system of the game, it just isn't designed to be fair to defensive builds because defensive gameplay is dull. Which is fine and dandy for DPS type classes or flexible classes. But when you have one trick ponies as available classes, and their abilities are either primarily defensive or their sole source of damage mitigation is not scaled appropriately to compensate for the increases in overall damage output in the game, you end up with two classes that are nothing but flavor and a chore to grind through for power gamers or anyone who has bought into the TR cycle as end game. There's no real easy way to fix that problem without significantly altering the very nature of the classes themselves or making things like DR and AC matter and scale comparative to DPS enhancements in significance. Factoring the significance of an additional crit multiplier to DPS into an equivalent boost to defense is not real easy to do given the mechanics present in the system.

  18. #18
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    One thought I was considering was changing the paladin's smite evil ability to last MUCH longer. What I was thinking is that when you activate smite evil, the icon appears on your buff bar with no timer, and the next time you hit a opponent with a melee attack, you apply both the attack and damage modifiers of your smite evil for a certain amount of time (Say, 3-6 seconds?) It would be similar to a Fury of the Wild's adrenaline.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  19. #19
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    One thought I was considering was changing the paladin's smite evil ability to last MUCH longer. What I was thinking is that when you activate smite evil, the icon appears on your buff bar with no timer, and the next time you hit a opponent with a melee attack, you apply both the attack and damage modifiers of your smite evil for a certain amount of time (Say, 3-6 seconds?) It would be similar to a Fury of the Wild's adrenaline.
    this would be interesting
    Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  20. #20
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Paladins are way too front loaded. The benefit after level 2 is minimal and the benefit after level 4 is basically nil compared to other classes. I'd approach a fix in a few ways.

    1. Back load paladin abilities more. Turn smite evil into a cooldown attack with infinite uses. Reduce the cooldown at the intervals where extra smites were added previously (5/10/15/20). Instead of exalted smite being an enhancement, the benefits of it are simply added to your smite evil in intervals at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 when you receive your cooldown reductions. A level 20 paladin could be using exalted smite perhaps every 6 seconds or less with no charges to worry about.

    2. Similarly, change remove disease to an unlimited use cooldown ability as well with cooldown reductions at the tiers you would normally earn extra uses (6/12/18). At level 6, you can cast restoration as well whenever you use remove disease. At level 12, you add panacea. At level 18, you add heal as well. A level 18 paladin using remove disease on an ally would also hit them with restoration, panacea and heal simultaneously.

    3. Add some useful spells to the spell list and buff up what's already there. I'd change divine favorr to 1 min/level to be more in line with ram's might. Spells added don't necessarily have to be direct dps spells, but some good utility. Perhaps a level 2 spell that adds 10% stackable doublestrike while you have a shield equipped (which effects mainhand attacks only as normal). Maybe a level 4 spell that adds holy, silver and disruption to your shield and adds +20% stackable shield bash.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 02-05-2014 at 02:34 PM.
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