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    Default Melee Rangers - Viable in EE?

    I guess I'm a little tired of seeing all the Ranged-based Ranger threads, so lets have a chat about Melee Rangers.

    U21 Lammania notes promise that the Tempest Capstone has now been fixed. and indeed, someone has been kind enough to test it and report it now working on all off-hand attacks.

    So with some dodgy maths, I've worked out that in terms of Attacks per Minute, a Pure 20 Ranger with Tempest Capstone, Doublestrike bonus and 100% Offhand attacks can now easily surpass any other build combination out there.

    That includes looking at Unarmed Earth-stanced Centered-Kensai builds with Shintao offhand bonus, pure Fighter 20 builds with the Alacrity capstone, and included all viable sources of Doublestrike for all types of build.I would of looked at Wind stanced Monks, but there fragility in EE content without a decent amount of PRR from Earth Stance (not to mention the +1 Crit Multiplier) meant I've excluded this point so far. A pure Ranger is looking at 24 PRR from Improved Parry and wearing Light Armour, so thought it fairer to think I would roll a Earth stance Monk if I wanted something similar.

    Of course, Attacks per minute is only half the story. What I've not started looking at is the possible damage per swing, which then can translate into an actual DPS number. A Pure Ranger can organise his 5 Favoured Enemies quite nicely for End Game right now (Giants, Orcs, Humans, Evil Outsiders, Undead - Orcs can swap over to Gnolls / Monstrous Humanoids if you run alot more GH than Stormhorns) so I'm thinking that +10 FE Damage is going to sit in there favour quite nicely.

    So in terms of EE content, what are your thoughts on a pure 20 Ranger Tempest in an appropiate Melee (LD/FotW) Destiny?
    Last edited by Arlathen; 02-03-2014 at 06:01 PM.
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    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    My money's on pure rgr w/dual Mornhs in LD; Pulverizer makes up for not having Keen Edge, though not sure capstone makes up for losing +1 crits from Earth stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    My money's on pure rgr w/dual Mornhs in LD; Pulverizer makes up for not having Keen Edge, though not sure capstone makes up for losing +1 crits from Earth stance.
    Interesting you didn't mention Balizarde's in that reply. Since there already 18-20/x3, is it only the larger sized base damage die that your recommending the Mornh's for?

    But really, this leads me back into the question of whether there is enough scope to make the damage competitive. Even excluding the extra Crit Multi from Earth stance, your typical Centered-Kensai is rocking around with +1.5[W] from Dance of Flowers. For a Balizarde, that's an extra 7 Avg damage. For Mornh, that creeps up to 8.

    Still, I'm thinking there's way to draw parity for the 20 Ranger, as I mentioned before there's Favoured Enemies and also with U21 in the newer Divine Crusader destiny there is Sword of Virtue which is a T2 Twist for +6 Weapon Damage.

    I suppose it comes down to a quite subjective 'How viable is viable' ? :/
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    U21 Lammania notes promise that the Tempest Capstone has now been fixed.
    Sorry for an off-topic question. Did the Tier 5 Tempest timers change? I mean 6 seconds with a long cool down bites.

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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Sorry for an off-topic question. Did the Tier 5 Tempest timers change? I mean 6 seconds with a long cool down bites.
    I agree with this concern. Fixing the capstone is great, but if the tree as a whole is still meh compared to multiclass options then it's a non issue. The opportunity cost of even a powerful capstone is far too large compared to the advantages of splashing another class in nearly every situation.
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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I have both, an 18/1/1 Tempest and a 12/6/2 tempest-kensai.

    All things being equal you'll be about 30% DPS behind a TWFing 12/6/2 centered kensai. This is going off of timed tests killing stuff and DPS calcs.

    Is it viable? Yes. Is it Optimal? No.

    Is it fun? Yes.

    Thing is the trade-off used to be DPS versus self-healing whereas now with Bladeforged the 12/6/2 actually has BETTER self-hjealing.

    Now with that capstone getting fixed in U21 . . . I'm not sure. I mean it's better than it is now.

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    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I have both, an 18/1/1 Tempest and a 12/6/2 tempest-kensai.
    What classes, ranger/fighter/monk? Is the second one an LR'd bladeforged with no pally?

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    What classes, ranger/fighter/monk? Is the second one an LR'd bladeforged with no pally?
    Ranger 18/rogue 1/Fighter 1. Human.

    Fighter 12/range 6/monk 2. Bladeforged with no pally.

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    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 02-03-2014 at 02:58 PM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Sorry for an off-topic question. Did the Tier 5 Tempest timers change? I mean 6 seconds with a long cool down bites.
    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I agree with this concern. Fixing the capstone is great, but if the tree as a whole is still meh compared to multiclass options then it's a non issue. The opportunity cost of even a powerful capstone is far too large compared to the advantages of splashing another class in nearly every situation.
    Not really off-topic tbh - very relevant question when thinking about overall Ranger Melee DPS. And no. There still gimped out.

    While Improved Evasion is fairly worthwhile, the supposed 'DPS' enhancements are still at there pitiful durations/cooldowns.

    In fact, when playing with possible enhancement specs, I've found myself trying out T5 Deepwood Sniper and only going to T4 Tempest (but with enough AP spent for Capstone). It doesn't leave much for Racial or AA enhancements, but you can pull out a Headshot-Manyshot volley which I think could be very helpful for establishing Master Blitz in EEs.

    This also relates to the fact that I would *really* want to get the Killer enhancement out of Deepwood Sniper anyway, which also means a potential bump to Favoured Enemies from 5x FEs/+10 damage to 6x FEs/+15 Damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I have both, an 18/1/1 Tempest and a 12/6/2 tempest-kensai.All things being equal you'll be about 30% DPS behind a TWFing 12/6/2 centered kensai. This is going off of timed tests killing stuff and DPS calcs.Is it viable? Yes. Is it Optimal? No. Is it fun? Yes.Thing is the trade-off used to be DPS versus self-healing whereas now with Bladeforged the 12/6/2 actually has BETTER self-hjealing.Now with that capstone getting fixed in U21 . . . I'm not sure. I mean it's better than it is now.
    I take it that 12/6/2 is a Fi/Ra/Mk in terms of split? Seems obvious, but just checking. And I guess that seems right. I think I need to go away and look at the on-the-paper numbers, then run a Ranger TR upto 20 ready to test in U21.

    On an offhand kind of note (see what I did there?), yeah, Bladeforged is the defacto melee race these days. Its the P2W Monk-of-the-Races if you ask me. Reconstruct, Tactics, PRR, Fort & Power of Forge?! Meh, Moar BF Nerfs!
    Last edited by Arlathen; 02-03-2014 at 03:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Ranger 18/rogue 1/Fighter 1. Human.

    Fighter 12/range 6/monk 2. Bladeforged with no pally.

    Pay2win FTW.
    Okay cool. Second question - based on another thread. I think you mentioned you had 100% offhand procs with the 12/6/2. How did you get that? Does it require tomes for dex?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Okay cool. Second question - based on another thread. I think you mentioned you had 100% offhand procs with the 12/6/2. How did you get that? Does it require tomes for dex?
    I think you can stack Deft Strikes from Shintao enhancements with the Lvl 3 Ranger Innate in Tempest enhancements.
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    I think you can stack Deft Strikes from Shintao enhancements with the Lvl 3 Ranger Innate in Tempest enhancements.
    As long as you are centered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    I think you can stack Deft Strikes from Shintao enhancements with the Lvl 3 Ranger Innate in Tempest enhancements.
    I had a twf tempest for a while. It is actually pretty fun in fury destiny, because overwhelming fury is great cc and eternal fury results in recharging adrenaline quite quickly.

    Right now, monks actually get a higher attacks per minute, however. I like weapons though.
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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Okay cool. Second question - based on another thread. I think you mentioned you had 100% offhand procs with the 12/6/2. How did you get that? Does it require tomes for dex?
    Deft Strikes from the Shintao stacks with Tempest.

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    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    So with some dodgy maths, I've worked out that in terms of Attacks per Minute, a Pure 20 Ranger with Tempest Capstone, Doublestrike bonus and 100% Offhand attacks can now easily surpass any other build combination out there.
    Based on this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144

    I disagree my math says unarmed Monks with 100% off-hand strikes (either a 3 ranger splash or are helf with ranger dilettante) will attack faster then a Ranger.

    Ranger: 4.28 Attacks per second (5.58 Attacks per second with Hast Boost)
    Monk: 4.29 APS (5.68 APS with Hast Boost)

    Ranger: DS = 16% (3% Black Dragon + 3% Item + 5% PTWF + 5% Whirlwind) ODS = 35% (10% PTWF + 25% Capstone)
    Monk: DS = 21% (3% Black Dragon + 3% Item + 5% PTWF + 10% wind stance) ODS = 10% (10% PTWF)

    Fury of Blows still gives unarmed monks the speed edge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    My money's on pure rgr w/dual Mornhs in LD; Pulverizer makes up for not having Keen Edge, though not sure capstone makes up for losing +1 crits from Earth stance.
    Fists of Iron and Iron Skin are also very useful. The former for more dps, but the later is really the main point.

    It's not entirely about dps. Being able to stay in longer makes a big difference to overall dps.
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    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Interesting you didn't mention Balizarde's in that reply. Since there already 18-20/x3, is it only the larger sized base damage die that your recommending the Mornh's for?
    It's just a hunch: Mornh is 17-20 x3 w/Imp Crit, 15-20 x3 w/Pulverizer (or Keen Edge), which puts it on par w/ Balizarde. Plus it's got higher base dmg & Seeker +10 (which can be found on other gear, true, but is still a bit rare). And Anvil of Thunder procs a free stun on crits, IIRC, so if you've got Sense Weakness Twisted in like a good lil' melee, that's a lot of free extra DPS. Hemorrhaging is slightly better than Fracturing, but Magma Surge provides another DPS kick.

    But as you say, there are other DPS perks to the monk / kensei route; is +5% main / +25% offhand doublestrike really going to close that gap?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    On an offhand kind of note (see what I did there?), yeah, Bladeforged is the defacto melee race these days. Its the P2W Monk-of-the-Races if you ask me. Reconstruct, Tactics, PRR, Fort & Power of Forge?! Meh, Moar BF Nerfs!
    I'd rather see the other Iconics get buffed. If Turbine's gonna go the pay2win route, at least make all of them equally viable / OP!

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Regarding tactics . . . without pally levels dump 'em. I've got 3 Fighter PLs, best possible gear, currently level 25 and my stunning blow ain't holding up in Gianthold even.

    I think they need to take another look at the Stunning Blow formula as unless you're a Divine Might build you ain't landing stuff at higher levels.

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    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Deft Strikes from the Shintao stacks with Tempest.
    Ok thanks. Not familiar with monks at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    I had a twf tempest for a while. It is actually pretty fun in fury destiny, because overwhelming fury is great cc and eternal fury results in recharging adrenaline quite quickly.Right now, monks actually get a higher attacks per minute, however. I like weapons though.
    Come update 21 that will no longer be true though, even with unarmed attack speed. Pure 20 Ranger with Tempest capstone will have great attacks-per-minute than a Monk.
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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