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  1. #41
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    I'm factoring in the following as main hand 'Universal Doublestrike' that all class combinations can get:

    3% - Artifact Item: Black Dragon Set
    3% - GMoF: Hail of Blows Twist
    5% - EDF: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    9% - EDPL: Martial x3
    8% - Morale Item: Skirmisher's Bracers
    = 28%

    Then another 5% for Whirlwind for Level 20 Rangers (strictly speaking level 18, but we're talking about going 20 for the Capstone here), and theoretically upto 45% with Killer stacks (as Killer at 4 stacks is +20% Morale bonus and won't stack with Skirmisher's Bracers).
    Ahh, gotcha. Wasn't sure if you were counting the EDPL or not. Not sure if that's realistic or not, but for the purposes of this argument I suppose it is

  2. #42
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Ok, I accept that by using Tier 5 Shintao enhancements you can have your 100% Offhand, but I would also stipulate that you would go pure Monk in this case for the Shintao capstone to offset the penalties of Meditation of War.

    I stand by my monks having faster attack speed then Rangers.

    Also you are wrong about the Tempest Enh as unbongwah's level 7 test and my level 28 test confirmed last night a 15/3/x Monk can have 100% through the Tempest Enh.

    Also there's no realistic way you can count full killer stacks in a DPS numbers game. Where as every thing I've said has been realist and could be applicable, you have to result to an unsustainable buff. I wish Rangers could attack faster then Monks too but its just not realistic.

  3. #43

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    Ok, time for some real contentious debate....

    I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

    This is what I've calculated:

    Ranger 20: 878 DPS
    Cen. Kensai: 864 DPS


    Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

    There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:


    • Both builds are using Mornh
    • Both builds are perma Haste boosting
    • Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
    • Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
    • Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
    • Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
    • No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
    • No Favoured Enemies taken into account
    • No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)


    I'm going to do the Bali calcs later on tonight, I expect the Kensai to cruise past into the lead here as the Keen Edge advantage won't be neutralised by Pulverizer.

    As always, there's other checks and balances here, as the Kensai above can take advantage of extra Paladin Defenses in more PRR and uninterruptable LoH emergency healing.
    Last edited by Arlathen; 02-04-2014 at 10:14 AM.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I stand by my monks having faster attack speed then Rangers.

    Also you are wrong about the Tempest Enh as unbongwah's level 7 test and my level 28 test confirmed last night a 15/3/x Monk can have 100% through the Tempest Enh.

    Also there's no realistic way you can count full killer stacks in a DPS numbers game. Where as every thing I've said has been realist and could be applicable, you have to result to an unsustainable buff. I wish Rangers could attack faster then Monks too but its just not realistic.
    Fine. Whatever. I don't really care. The point of the thread was to compare Ranger 20 with working Tempest capstone to current top dog Centered Kensai builds anyway, before the huge derailment.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Ahh, gotcha. Wasn't sure if you were counting the EDPL or not. Not sure if that's realistic or not, but for the purposes of this argument I suppose it is
    I've been running to 28 and double ETR/TR on my intended character, enjoying store bought hearts along the way. I'm a slave to convenience
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  6. #46
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    Double checking your numbers. Assuming OC + Earth for 19-20/x5, 15-18/x3 and 4d8 + 71 = 89.

    So, 20 % * ( 89 + 10 ) * 3 + 10% * (89 + 10 ) * 5 + 65 % * 89 = 59.4 + 49.5 + 57.85 = 166.75 base per hit.

    166.75 (base) + 66.75 (procs) = 233.50 per hit.


    Actually Keen Edge make the Balizarde 19-20/x5, 13-18/x3....

    So, 30 % * ( 89 + 10 ) * 3 + 10% * (89 + 10 ) * 5 + 55 % * 89 = 89.1 + 49.5 + 48.95 = 187.55 base per hit.

    187.55 (base) + 66.75 (procs) = 254.3 per hit.


    I'll review the rest later.
    187.55 + 0.95(66.75) = 250.96

    You don't get effect damage on a miss.

  7. #47
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Ok, time for some real contentious debate....

    I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

    This is what I've calculated:

    Ranger 20: 878 DPS
    Cen. Kensai: 836 DPS


    Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

    There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:


    • Both builds are using Mornh
    • Both builds are perma Haste boosting
    • Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
    • Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
    • Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
    • Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
    • No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
    • No Favoured Enemies taken into account
    • No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)
    Go with 6 ranger instead of 5 pally.

    What STR are you using for your calcs?

    I'll believe a 20 Ranger out-DPSing a Kensai when I see it.

  8. #48
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Ok, time for some real contentious debate....

    I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

    This is what I've calculated:

    Ranger 20: 878 DPS
    Cen. Kensai: 836 DPS


    Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

    There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:


    • Both builds are using Mornh
    • Both builds are perma Haste boosting
    • Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
    • Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
    • Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
    • Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
    • No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
    • No Favoured Enemies taken into account
    • No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)


    I'm going to do the Bali calcs later on tonight, I expect the Kensai to cruise past into the lead here as the Keen Edge advantage won't be neutralised by Pulverizer.

    As always, there's other checks and balances here, as the Kensai above can take advantage of extra Paladin Defenses in more PRR and uninterruptable LoH emergency healing.
    Either your calculator is broken or you used totally unrealistic numbers. 800ish DPS looks way to low for either build.
    Damage mod is also hugely different on those builds.

    Not including FE on a 20 ranger doesn't make much sense. You could even twist in a 6th FE from Primal avatar or even a 7th from DWS - so there's almost nothing left that's not FE (10/12/14 Dam mod for FE is nothing you can just leave out of a calculation).
    Last edited by Eth; 02-04-2014 at 08:35 AM.
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  9. #49
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Damage mod is also hugely different on those builds.
    If he's using the same damage mod for each his entire premise is flawed.

  10. #50
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    If he's using the same damage mod for each his entire premise is flawed.
    Well he listed DM and Power Surge. Still those numbers seem very unrealistic.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Ok, time for some real contentious debate....

    I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

    This is what I've calculated:

    Ranger 20: 878 DPS
    Cen. Kensai: 836 DPS


    Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

    There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:


    • Both builds are using Mornh
    • Both builds are perma Haste boosting
    • Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
    • Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
    • Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
    • Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
    • No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
    • No Favoured Enemies taken into account
    • No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)


    I'm going to do the Bali calcs later on tonight, I expect the Kensai to cruise past into the lead here as the Keen Edge advantage won't be neutralised by Pulverizer.

    As always, there's other checks and balances here, as the Kensai above can take advantage of extra Paladin Defenses in more PRR and uninterruptable LoH emergency healing.
    You need to show your work so people can see your errors. My numbers have Knesai always ahead even with Mornh.

    Ranger
    Unboosted Damage
    30286.05 = 219.48 * 137.99
    27388.26 = 198.48 * 137.99
    57674.30 Total
    961.24 DPS

    Damage Boosted Only Assuming no Delay in activation.
    36343.81 = 263.38 * 137.99
    32866.46 = 238.18 * 137.99
    69210.26 Total
    1153.50 DPS

    Haste Boost Only Assuming no Delays in Activation
    39502.01 = 219.48 * 179.98
    35722.43 = 198.48 * 179.98
    75224.44 Total
    1253.74 DPS

    Hast + Damage Boost no Delay in activation
    47403.13 = 263.38 * 179.98
    42867.64 = 238.18 * 179.98
    90270.77 Total
    1504.51 DPS

    Kensei
    Unboosted Damage
    34504.95 = 259.67 * 132.88
    25658.77 = 228.22 * 112.43
    60163.72 Total
    1002.73 DPS

    Damage Boosted Only Assuming no Delay in activation.
    41405.41 = 311.60 * 132.88
    30790.08 = 273.86 * 112.43
    72195.46 Total
    1203.26 DPS

    Haste Boost Only Assuming no Delays in Activation
    45006.00 = 259.67 * 173.32
    33468.46 = 228.22 * 146.65
    78474.47 Total
    1307.91 DPS

    Hast + Damage Boost no Delay in activation
    54006.51 = 311.60 * 173.32
    40161.57 = 273.86 * 112.43
    94168.08 Total
    1569.47 DPS

    Math & Stats
    Code:
    Kensai
    Strength
    18 Base
    07 Level Ups
    05 Tome
    10 Item
    01 Exceptional 
    13 Insight (Divine Might)
    01 Race (Human)
    01 Destiny 
    05 Primal Scream
    11 Power Surge (8+3 Human Action Boost)
    02 Ship
    02 Yugo
    76 Total
    
    Main Hand Damage Mod
    33 Strength
    08 Weapon Enchantment 
    10 Deadly
    05 Advancing Blows
    04 Kensai
    04 Fighter Feat
    05 Power Attack
    04 Planar Focus
    01 Tempest 
    74 Total
    
    Off Hand Damage Mod
    16 Strength
    08 Weapon Enchantment 
    10 Deadly
    05 Advancing Blows
    04 Kensai
    04 Fighter Feat
    05 Power Attack
    04 Planar Focus
    01 Tempest 
    57 Total
    
    Damage Effects
    15.00 Sneak Attack (2d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
    07.00 Fracturing
    07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
    05.72 Magma Surge
    07.00 Ravagers Set
    09.25 Sense Weakness
    04.50 Tunnel Vision
    55.47 Total
    
    Double Strike
    03% Black Dragon Set
    03% Hail of Blows Twist
    05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
    08% Skirmisher's Bracers
    02% Strike With No Thought
    30% Total
    
    Off Hand Double Strike
    10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    10% Total
    
    Base Weapon Damage
    3.0[W] Mornh Base
    1.5[W] A Dance of Flowers
    0.5[W] Improved Power Attack
    5.0[W] Total
    
    Seeker
    10 Item
    06 LD T3
    16 Total
    
    Crit Profile
    15-18/x3
    19-20/x6 (LD T4, Earth Stance, Ovherwhlming Critical)
    
    Avg Damage Main Hand 
    5d10 + 74 with 55.47 Effect Damage
    0.65(27.5+74) + 0.60(27.5+74+16) + 0.60(27.5+74+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 259.67
    Human Damage Boost 1.2(259.67) = 311.60
    
    Avg Damage Off Hand
    5d10 + 57 with 55.47 Effect Damage
    0.65(27.5+57) + 0.60(27.5+57+16) + 0.60(27.5+57+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 228.22
    Human Damage Boost 1.2(228.22) = 273.86
    
    Attacks Per Min Main Hand
    132.88 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.3
    Haste Boost 173.32 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.3
    
    Attacks Per Min Off Hand
    112.43 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.1
    Haste Boost 146.65 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.1
    
    
    Ranger
    Strength
    18 Base
    07 Level Ups
    05 Tome
    10 Item
    01 Exceptional 
    03 Insight (Divine Might)
    01 Race (Human)
    01 Class
    01 Destiny 
    05 Primal Scream
    02 Ship
    02 Yugo
    56 Total
    
    Main Hand Damage Mod
    23 Strength
    08 Weapon Enchantment
    10 Deadly
    05 Advancing Blows
    10 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    04 Planar Focus
    01 Tempest 
    66 Total
    
    Off Hand Damage Mod
    11 Strength
    08 Weapon Enchantment 
    10 Deadly
    05 Advancing Blows
    10 Favored Enemy
    05 Power Attack
    04 Planar Focus
    01 Tempest 
    54 Total
    
    Damage Effects
    15.00 Sneak Attack (2d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
    07.00 Fracturing
    07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
    05.72 Magma Surge
    07.00 Ravagers Set
    09.25 Sense Weakness
    04.50 Tunnel Vision
    55.47 Total
    
    Double Strike
    03% Black Dragon Set
    03% Hail of Blows Twist
    05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
    08% Skirmisher's Bracers
    02% Strike With No Thought
    05% Whirlwind
    35% Total
    
    Off Hand Double Strike
    10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    25% Capstone
    35% Total
    
    Base Weapon Damage
    3.0[W] Mornh Base
    0.5[W] Improved Power Attack
    3.5[W] Total
    
    Seeker
    10 Item
    06 LD T3
    16 Total
    
    Crit Profile
    15-18/x3
    19-20/x5 (LD T4, Overwhelming Critical)
    
    Avg Damage Main Hand 
    3.5d10 + 66 with 55.47 Effect Damage
    0.65(19.25+66) + 0.60(19.25+66+16) + 0.50(19.25+66+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 219.48
    Human Damage Boost 1.2(259.67) = 263.38
    
    Avg Damage Off Hand
    3.5d10 + 54 with 55.47 Effect Damage
    0.65(19.25+54) + 0.60(19.25+54+16) + 0.50(19.25+54+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 198.48
    Human Damage Boost 1.2(228.22) = 238.18
    
    Attacks Per Min Main Hand
    137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
    Haste Boost 179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35
    
    Attacks Per Min Off Hand
    137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
    Haste Boost 179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Go with 6 ranger instead of 5 pally.

    What STR are you using for your calcs?

    I'll believe a 20 Ranger out-DPSing a Kensai when I see it.
    I did spot a small mistake in my initial quick calcs, still it only closes the gap a little:

    Ranger 20: 878 DPS
    Cnt-Kensai: 864 DPS

    (Edited my above post as well)

    I'll believe it when I see it as well, tbh.

    I was actually thinking that 12 Fighter/Paladin is going to be more DPS, with Power Surge and Divine Might advantage over the Ranger. Not to mention I know someone who actually plays this variant rather than the Ranger version. Still, I'll look at a 100% Offhand Ranger version later on.

    In terms of stats, I'm working with 56 Str for the Ranger, and 70 Str for the Centered Kensai, with the Kensai having 30 Charisma for DM. In addition, I have the Ranger at 50.5 Damage Mod before Strength and FEs and the Kensai at 52.75 Damage Mod before Strength.

    Also, don't forget I'm also working on the fact that the Ranger can pick up Sword of Virtue from Divine Crusader in U21, as a decent replacement for Dance of Flowers. The other equaliser is that Mornh allows a Ranger to draw parallel with Keen Edge through Pulverizer.

    Lots of ifs and but's and maybes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Either your calculator is broken or you used totally unrealistic numbers. 800ish DPS looks way to low for either build.
    Damage mod is also hugely different on those builds.

    Not including FE on a 20 ranger doesn't make much sense. You could even twist in a 6th FE from Primal avatar or even a 7th from DWS - so there's almost nothing left that's not FE (10/12/14 Dam mod for FE is nothing you can just leave out of a calculation).
    I've never really tried to actually calculate DPS before, so I could be off target here, but I think I've got it roughly right. Remember, no Sneak Attack and no Blitz. Just straight Haste Boosting DPS on Mornhs.

    But umm, since we're talking situational bonuses here, can I have my Killer bonus back then please since both builds are going to be Blitzing in most quests? Please Sir?

    My point was to try and draw a roughly 'fair' appraisal of both toons before getting into more nitty gritty. I think FE's will give the Ranger an unfair advantage at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    If he's using the same damage mod for each his entire premise is flawed.
    Nope. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Well he listed DM and Power Surge. Still those numbers seem very unrealistic.
    Feel free to post your own calcs if you think my DPS calcs are in coming way too low for both
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  13. #53
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post

    Feel free to post your own calcs if you think my DPS calcs are in coming way too low for both
    No, I test how long it takes to kill stuff. Way more accurate as math never solves anything.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post

    <snip>
    1. Your missing Rams Might and Action Boost bonus to Str from the Ranger Column.
    2. Your missing the Whirling Blades options from Tempest Enhancements
    3. Ranger 20 is capable of hitting 6D6/4D6 Sneak Attack as Half-Elf/Human, not just 2D6 as you have listed
    4. I would put both builds in LD and not Fury of the Wild, unless your Twisting Sense, Tunnel Vision, Primal Scream and Dance of Flowers at the same time?
    5. You need to remove Strike with no Thought from the Ranger column.
    6. Your missing Combat Brute, but I gather this is a complication of your ED choice...
    7. Both Builds can get to +24 Seeker, not just 16

    As an idea for enhancements on the Ranger Build, I've been looking at:
    41AP for Tempest, with Capstone, Critical Damage 3, Whirling Blades 4 and 2x Strength
    26AP for Deepwood Sniper, obtaining +4D6 Sneak Attack, Killer and FE Damage 3 for +13 FE damage
    8AP for Half Elf with Rogue Dilletante, for another +2D6 Sneak attack, Damage Boost and +1 Str

    Leaving me 5 AP to pick up whatever extras I can squeeze.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No, I test how long it takes to kill stuff. Way more accurate as math never solves anything.
    Not in this Forum, it doesn't :P
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  16. #56
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Also, don't forget I'm also working on the fact that the Ranger can pick up Sword of Virtue from Divine Crusader in U21, as a decent replacement for Dance of Flowers. The other equaliser is that Mornh allows a Ranger to draw parallel with Keen Edge through Pulverizer.
    That a good call

    That would put my numbers at
    1009.53, 1211.46, 1316.73, 1580.10 For the Ranger bringing him ahead of the fighter with Mornh.

  17. #57
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Feel free to post your own calcs if you think my DPS calcs are in coming way too low for both
    I prefer to test DPS ingame. Not that hard anymore thanks to visable HP through monster manual.
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  18. #58
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    snip
    You also miss +1W for both cases though from LD Tier 5.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    1. Your missing Rams Might and Action Boost bonus to Str from the Ranger Column.
    2. Your missing the Whirling Blades options from Tempest Enhancements
    3. Ranger 20 is capable of hitting 6D6/4D6 Sneak Attack as Half-Elf/Human, not just 2D6 as you have listed
    4. I would put both builds in LD and not Fury of the Wild, unless your Twisting Sense, Tunnel Vision, Primal Scream and Dance of Flowers at the same time?
    5. You need to remove Strike with no Thought from the Ranger column.
    6. Your missing Combat Brute, but I gather this is a complication of your ED choice...
    7. Both Builds can get to +24 Seeker, not just 16

    As an idea for enhancements on the Ranger Build, I've been looking at:
    41AP for Tempest, with Capstone, Critical Damage 3, Whirling Blades 4 and 2x Strength
    26AP for Deepwood Sniper, obtaining +4D6 Sneak Attack, Killer and FE Damage 3 for +13 FE damage
    8AP for Half Elf with Rogue Dilletante, for another +2D6 Sneak attack, Damage Boost and +1 Str

    Leaving me 5 AP to pick up whatever extras I can squeeze.
    There are a lot of errors in my calculations related to LD and Fury (that's cause i was quickly converting the numbers in my spreadsheat my bad)

    I'm still not sure the Ranger will beat the Centered Kensai but its going to be close on the spreadsheats. What Twists are you using on the Ranger?

  20. #60
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Posts
    1,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    7. Both Builds can get to +24 Seeker, not just 16
    Brake down please?

    Edit:
    Nevermind I forgot about clock of the wolf.
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 02-04-2014 at 10:45 AM.

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