Thread: How good is the silver longbow?

1. Originally Posted by Waaye
Every equation posted in this thread without anything to show that Turbine is using those calculations in DDO.

6 X 9 = 42 is also an equation but there may be something fundamentally wrong with it.

Why is no one taking a few minutes to go into the game with a L10 character and try the different bows to see how they compare? Then they can post the results and we can all look at some actual data and stop debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whatever.

Of course that probably happened quite some time ago and nobody wants to post their results. How odd.
Ok.. I just went out with a level 10 ranger.

Killed 5 mobs each with these 3 bows:

Silver bow:
Got crits on the first shot on 4 of the 5 mobs and killed them in one shot. The remaining mob took 3 shots.
Average shot per kill: 1.4

Thornlord:
4 mobs killed in 3 shots, got a crit on one and killed it in 2.
Average shots per kill: 2.8

Bow of elements:
5 mobs 4 shots each, no crits.
Average shots per kill: 4.0

Now its been tested and the evidence shows that the silver bow is best!

2. Originally Posted by Ancient
Then others will know you are serious.
For me there was no doubt the silver bow was not hitting well any more. That is why I replaced it with Elements (Air) which hit significantly more often. Then an "expert" told me that the silver bow was better so I actually went and tested it.
Here is the raw data from the test;
Desert pass 1:
Silver - 5,4,4,2,4
Air - 2,5,6,4,5
Thornlord - 4,2,2,1,3
new bow - 4,1,4,5,4

Desert pass 2:
Silver - 4,2,5,3,7
Air - 3,3,5,8,4
Thornlord - 4,4,4,4,4
new bow - 4,3,5,4,8

Mine in Ataraxia:
Silver - 4,4,5,10,7
Air - 3,6,6,6,5
Thornlord - 4,5,6,7,6
new bow 6,5,5,5,6

This is actual data and includes "flyers" but you have provided no data at all. Do you even have a 28 point L10 toon to repeat the experiment and get some results to compare? It should only take a few minutes.

This thread was never about what the silver bow hypothesis is but was always about testing the claim. The silver bow is not the best choice for my toon and I was just wondering if that was true for anybody else. I was not trying to trick anybody by creating the thread and am surprised that every response just repeats the theory. How odd that there is not a single on-topic response..

3. Originally Posted by Waaye

This thread was never about what the silver bow hypothesis is but was always about testing the claim. The silver bow is not the best choice for my toon and I was just wondering if that was true for anybody else. I was not trying to trick anybody by creating the thread and am surprised that every response just repeats the theory. How odd that there is not a single on-topic response..
From what I can gather from these numbers, your toon has an 8 strength, doesn't use a seeker, strength, or deadly item. Does not have improved critical range.

So instead of making a thread that titled "silver bow sucks" you should make a thread titled "my toon sucks how can I make it better".

4. Originally Posted by Vordax
Ok.. I just went out with a level 10 ranger.

Killed 5 mobs each with these 3 bows:

Silver bow:
Got crits on the first shot on 4 of the 5 mobs and killed them in one shot. The remaining mob took 3 shots.
Average shot per kill: 1.4

Thornlord:
4 mobs killed in 3 shots, got a crit on one and killed it in 2.
Average shots per kill: 2.8

Bow of elements:
5 mobs 4 shots each, no crits.
Average shots per kill: 4.0

Now its been tested and the evidence shows that the silver bow is best!
Thanks for posting something on-topic. Please post the raw data so we can see if there are any flyers. Is your L10 toon a 28 point build? What were the mobs and where were they? If I can get to the location I will go and try my luck there.

It is surprising that the +4 Thornlord is so far ahead of the +5 Elements (Air). My experience with those bows and at-level mobs is the reverse.

5. Originally Posted by Waaye
For me there was no doubt the silver bow was not hitting well any more. That is why I replaced it with Elements (Air) which hit significantly more often. Then an "expert" told me that the silver bow was better so I actually went and tested it.
Here is the raw data from the test;
Desert pass 1:
Silver - 5,4,4,2,4
Air - 2,5,6,4,5
Thornlord - 4,2,2,1,3
new bow - 4,1,4,5,4

Desert pass 2:
Silver - 4,2,5,3,7
Air - 3,3,5,8,4
Thornlord - 4,4,4,4,4
new bow - 4,3,5,4,8

Mine in Ataraxia:
Silver - 4,4,5,10,7
Air - 3,6,6,6,5
Thornlord - 4,5,6,7,6
new bow 6,5,5,5,6

This is actual data and includes "flyers" but you have provided no data at all. Do you even have a 28 point L10 toon to repeat the experiment and get some results to compare? It should only take a few minutes.

This thread was never about what the silver bow hypothesis is but was always about testing the claim. The silver bow is not the best choice for my toon and I was just wondering if that was true for anybody else. I was not trying to trick anybody by creating the thread and am surprised that every response just repeats the theory. How odd that there is not a single on-topic response..
In your desert passes - did you perchance go to the undead side....because if you did undead mobs are crit immune and that would explain the lack of damage. Ataraxia - dwarf mine or Troll caves - dwarfs are high fort mobs in ataraxia (generally speaking) and again would explain your results.

You are being patently obtuse on this, your, topic. People have requested your build information, have provided you with good math that the game (based upon thousands of people playing the game and getting results consistent enough with the stated math that they haven't documented a problem with the combat math) AND have explained to you why the Silver Bow is situationally better than the other options.

If you WANT to have your mind made up that Silver Bow isnt better then fine we can't change your opinion.

If you are serious and are actually interested in statistics/math then you would listen to everyone else and do the work yourself. Go out - in game - sample size 100 minimum - list the exact mob you are attacking and your specific results (die roll, damage done, STR, DEX, weapon used). Once you are done you can come back and make some grand pronouncement. No one here needs to do this to satisfy you. You are acting like a chump.

6. Oh and another thing - if you are missing due to the bow's enhancement bonus difference - it's not the bow - it's the build and your gear. Regardless of 28 pt build or not. A decent build with decent easy to buy on AH gear can get to the 'hit on a 2 or better' level such that missing isn't the issue. And when missing isn't the issue it is then solely about the damage profile of the weapon and the related math.

7. Originally Posted by Spoonwelder
If you are serious and are actually interested in statistics/math[...]
From the beginning I made it clear I am interested in empirical data and not theory. The historical formulae that may or may not have been used in a game that no longer exists is not relevant. There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear but there is something wrong with recommending the silver bow to the average first-timer when they can't possibly get that kind of performance from the bow.

8. Originally Posted by Waaye
From the beginning I made it clear I am interested in empirical data and not theory. The historical formulae that may or may not have been used in a game that no longer exists is not relevant. There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear but there is something wrong with recommending the silver bow to the average first-timer when they can't possibly get that kind of performance from the bow.
You dolt - statistics IS the analysis of empirical data. YOUR data means nothing without analysis and the application of proper statistical rigor - otherwise it is junk data that allows no conclusions to be drawn.

Going out and firing 271 arrows from 4 different weapons is not statistically significant - your method is rubbish, your conclusion is questionable and thus NOBODY is taking you up on your 'challenge' to test it ourselves.

We don't need to - go do the effing work yourself and IF you do it properly then you can come back and report your findings with detailed support to the conditions of your test. So far you have provided none of that.

With that - I am out on this topic.

9. Originally Posted by Waaye
Thanks for posting something on-topic. Please post the raw data so we can see if there are any flyers. Is your L10 toon a 28 point build? What were the mobs and where were they? If I can get to the location I will go and try my luck there.

It is surprising that the +4 Thornlord is so far ahead of the +5 Elements (Air). My experience with those bows and at-level mobs is the reverse.
Do you understand that with a sample size low as yours and mine that it is meaningless? For the bow of elements, I probably rolled a lot of 1's on the d8 for damage. If you think the formulas that have been used, tested and proven no longer are valid do some testing. 100 arrows from each bow is not enough. You should strive for 1000 arrows per bow. Record the roll you made, the to hit bonus and the damage done.

Come up with your own data, don't be lazy, get out there and start testing your theory. Currently all you have is anecdotal evidence.

And what do you mean by "flyers"?

32 point build, but is a twf build I dusted off, so high strength lower dex, used a free feat swap to change improved crit slash for improved crit range. Had no enhancements selected either. I think 34 str and 25 dex with buffs. Bloodstone for seeker, had a deadly 4 item in my bank so equipped that too.

10. Originally Posted by Spoonwelder
You dolt .....
What he said, go test it thoroughly. Recommend you take videos of your tests, because with the way you are talking in this thread I wouldn't trust your data without it.

11. Originally Posted by Vordax
Do you understand that with a sample size low as yours and mine that it is meaningless? For the bow of elements, I probably rolled a lot of 1's on the d8 for damage. If you think the formulas that have been used, tested and proven no longer are valid do some testing. 100 arrows from each bow is not enough. You should strive for 1000 arrows per bow. Record the roll you made, the to hit bonus and the damage done.

Come up with your own data, don't be lazy, get out there and start testing your theory. Currently all you have is anecdotal evidence.

And what do you mean by "flyers"?

32 point build, but is a twf build I dusted off, so high strength lower dex, used a free feat swap to change improved crit slash for improved crit range. Had no enhancements selected either. I think 34 str and 25 dex with buffs. Bloodstone for seeker, had a deadly 4 item in my bank so equipped that too.
No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size. For me it was very simple. Used the silver bow from L8 to L10. By L10 it was missing a lot so I replaced it with Elements (Air) and the problem with missing was reduced.

Then an "expert" told me the silver bow was better than all my bows including the one I made and he knew nothing about. So I decided to test the silver bow in the field and found it wasn't the best, at least not for my character. After that, I created this thread to see if any other average first-timer was having the same problem with the silver bow. Now I don't know if other players like me aren't having the same problem or if there are just aren't many first-timers left. In the game I just don't see newcomers around anymore it is just alts with their fancy twink gear.

My data is empirical to me but it may be anecdotal to you. if you want empirical data then you must go and get it for yourself. A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range. For bow testing discarding data can skew the results so I don't do it. If you didn't discard any data then I can use what you have posted the way it is.

Do you think your toon can always crit with the silver bow 80% of the time or was it just a lucky streak? It seems there are some players with gear worth millions of platinum that seem to crit a lot with their bows. That isn't me or any other average first-timer but I think it can be done.

Heard there are some people that can solo raids on high difficulty too. That REALLY isn't me.

Thanks for posting the data and happy questing!

13. Originally Posted by Waaye
No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size. For me it was very simple. Used the silver bow from L8 to L10. By L10 it was missing a lot so I replaced it with Elements (Air) and the problem with missing was reduced.

Then an "expert" told me the silver bow was better than all my bows including the one I made and he knew nothing about. So I decided to test the silver bow in the field and found it wasn't the best, at least not for my character. After that, I created this thread to see if any other average first-timer was having the same problem with the silver bow. Now I don't know if other players like me aren't having the same problem or if there are just aren't many first-timers left. In the game I just don't see newcomers around anymore it is just alts with their fancy twink gear.

My data is empirical to me but it may be anecdotal to you. if you want empirical data then you must go and get it for yourself. A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range. For bow testing discarding data can skew the results so I don't do it. If you didn't discard any data then I can use what you have posted the way it is.

Do you think your toon can always crit with the silver bow 80% of the time or was it just a lucky streak? It seems there are some players with gear worth millions of platinum that seem to crit a lot with their bows. That isn't me or any other average first-timer but I think it can be done.

Heard there are some people that can solo raids on high difficulty too. That REALLY isn't me.

Thanks for posting the data and happy questing!
If you don't have improved critical ranged, don't have bow str or have a very very low str score and no seeker item and no deadly item, then you want a bow with high base damage and a lot of procs (shock, holy, lacerating etc)

If you have a toon that is build to do range, ie has improved crit range bow str etc, then silver bow does more damage on average because it crits more often.

The to hit bonus of bows and arrows do not stack. If you have a +1 bow and +5 arrows, that's a +5 to hit, if you have a +4 bow and +3 arrows, that's a +4 to hit.

Arcane archer core enhancements give a +1 to the enchantment bonus of your weapon, that does NOT stack with the weapon. Which means that any bow in the hands of an arcane archer will be +6 at level 20, at level 10 they will be +3.

In other words, don't worry about what the + is on the bow. It only matters if you aren't a range build but are using a bow anyway. Though I suspect your character isn't a range build, or if it is, it's very poorly built.

14. You guys really just got trolled.

15. Originally Posted by cru121
Thanks, cru121, it is a great bow. Elements (Air) was good until L12 and "Invaders!" solo where i wiped on normal. It just wasn't possible to kill all the mobs at range with the bow. Then I made a new bow from an old bow with instructions from Fedora1 and a recipe from linshao.

I think my bow is quite good for a L12 first timer.

What do you think?

+5 Paragon 14.85 base. 5% crit X 3 + shock + pure good + Festival Icy Burst

It works very well for a random drop and it allowed me to finish "Invaders!" without dying. My test results did not really show how well it works but I did not want to keep testing until i obtained the results I wanted.

Happy questing!

16. Originally Posted by Waaye
Thanks, cru121, it is a great bow. Elements (Air) was good until L12 and "Invaders!" solo where i wiped on normal. It just wasn't possible to kill all the mobs at range with the bow. Then I made a new bow from an old bow with instructions from Fedora1 and a recipe from linshao.

I think my bow is quite good for a L12 first timer.

What do you think?

+5 Paragon 14.85 base. 5% crit X 3 + shock + pure good + Festival Icy Burst

It works very well for a random drop and it allowed me to finish "Invaders!" without dying. My test results did not really show how well it works but I did not want to keep testing until i obtained the results I wanted.

Happy questing!

All of the top dps weapons are top dps weapons because of expanded crit range or increased crit multiplier or both. With all the various ways to increase base damage (str score, weapon enchantment, deadly item, weapon specialization etc), crit profile is the most important thing to look for in a weapon.

Second would be the ability to bypass fortification for those times you are fighting high fort mobs.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Precision

Cooldown: 30 seconds
Usage: Active, Toggled Stance
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13+, base attack bonus of +1 or higher

Description

While using Precision mode, you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%.

This works with ranged, and can be on at the same time as archers focus stance or improved precise shot.

17. Originally Posted by aristarchus1000
You guys really just got trolled.

Nah, he is a new player that doesn't understand game mechanics.

It's like those old threads where someone did the math and shows that bastardswords out dps khopeshes because of higher base damage (which is only true on a str dumped toon with a masterwork weapon).

18. Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech
Nah, he is a new player that doesn't understand game mechanics.
Nah, he is a new player that was bullied in cyberspace for asking a question. Please continue.

19. Originally Posted by Waaye
Nah, he is a new player that was bullied in cyberspace for asking a question. Please continue.
A lot of people explained why you are wrong, that's not the same as bullying.

20. You seem to think that maybe there is some sort of hidden math going on in the program regarding attack and damage rolls. There really isn't. As stated previously, the only math going on that isn't available to the public is how their random number generators generate numbers. My personal experience shows that while the randomly generated numbers might not be perfectly the same as what true random would be, it is close enough.

You keep mentioning the to hit difference between the bows. Your pseudo-randomly generated attack numbers are plainly visible at the bottom right of the screen. The only way the two bows would be different is if one is hitting while the other is missing with the same to hit rolls. With the current to hit formula, a difference of +2 attack is likely to be virtually negligible, meaning that in most cases both bows will hit and miss with the exact same rolled to hit numbers. Yes, on a few occasions, one may hit on, for example, a roll of a 5, while the other would miss, but that won't happen every time with only a difference of +2 to hit.

As far as the damage goes, the numbers for the damage float right up from the monsters. These numbers, in my observation, are completely consistent with the expected numbers from the damage stats listed on the bow. Maybe you think that these floating numbers aren't being applied correctly to the actual hit points of the mobs you are attacking. My experience is that they are, and i can see the exact hit points of quite a few different mobs in the game.

Again, this math is not hidden or mysterious. It does operate according to the theory of probability. How many times should you expect to flip a coin to end up with a perfect distribution of heads and tails? The answer? Infinity.

Many ignorant gamblers have gone broke while obsessed with the idea that numbers are "due". They seem to think that past results somehow metaphysically affect future results, with the idea that they must even out, and especially in a time frame that is observable to them. It doesn't work like that. That's why mathematical probabilities, when understood, are actually better than statistical samples, even with fairly large numbers.

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