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  1. #1
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default Why again a new crafting system - don´t we have enough already?

    The Lamaland discussion might be found here.

    Just my question to turbine: Why making a new crafting system? Don´t we have already plenty systems, some of them meanwhile very outdated (canith, shroud, epic)?

    Would it not be better / easier to unify the systems and to use the special crafting zones for crafting special or more powerful crystals only? This at least would make logical sense and would help to reduce the crafting complexity without reducing your potential to sell ingrediences. On countrary, it would help sell pots that facilitate (canith) crafting.

  2. #2
    Community Member toaftoaf's Avatar
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    that 70s show smoke circle has to be the crafting "think" session


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqyDqf8hKxc

  3. #3
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    Shroud is never outdated. Most of DDO is TRing and shroud has some nice twink gear.
    And displacement clickies.
    Mainly displacement clickies.

  4. #4
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    The Lamaland discussion might be found here.

    Just my question to turbine: Why making a new crafting system? Don´t we have already plenty systems, some of them meanwhile very outdated (canith, shroud, epic)?

    Would it not be better / easier to unify the systems and to use the special crafting zones for crafting special or more powerful crystals only? This at least would make logical sense and would help to reduce the crafting complexity without reducing your potential to sell ingrediences. On countrary, it would help sell pots that facilitate (canith) crafting.

    Actually, these barter box crafting systems are very similar to existing systems, and they are not overly complex. The biggest annoyance are the hundreds of different types of ingredients that exist. Imo, it's good to introduce (some) new ingredients, so that people actually have to play to get the ingredients. However, the amount of different types should be limited to about 5 per new set of craftable items, so that everything stays manageable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  5. #5
    Community Member LazarusPossum's Avatar
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    So again...more stuff, and no additional space to store it, right?
    "Why is stuff so hard?" - William Murderface

  6. #6
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    The Lamaland discussion might be found here.

    Just my question to turbine: Why making a new crafting system? Don´t we have already plenty systems, some of them meanwhile very outdated (canith, shroud, epic)?

    Would it not be better / easier to unify the systems and to use the special crafting zones for crafting special or more powerful crystals only? This at least would make logical sense and would help to reduce the crafting complexity without reducing your potential to sell ingrediences. On countrary, it would help sell pots that facilitate (canith) crafting.
    would you rather have randomly generated effects then?

  7. #7
    Community Member Rakuda13's Avatar
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    I dont mind all the different crafting systems in DDO. Sure some people dont enjoy using some of them,but I enjoy some of them. Actually GS is the most annoying for me,I prefer a few of the others.

  8. #8
    Community Member Snorunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusPossum View Post
    So again...more stuff, and no additional space to store it, right?
    Actually, from what I've seen it looks like they found a way to sneak in two more bag slots (via shrinking the tabs). (I've not been into Lamannia yet to see for myself though, I've only seen what people have posted about it in the Lamannia forums.)

  9. #9
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    I wish they´d just consolidate all their crafting systems into one (well, maybe cannith crafting is too much of it´s own thing to incorporate, but that one seems to be more or less abandoned by Turbine anyway). Have all systems use the same ingredients with some gateway ingredient from the appropriate content.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Algreg View Post
    I wish they´d just consolidate all their crafting systems into one (well, maybe cannith crafting is too much of it´s own thing to incorporate, but that one seems to be more or less abandoned by Turbine anyway). Have all systems use the same ingredients with some gateway ingredient from the appropriate content.
    To me it doesn't make sense to use the same ingredients, it is good to have something new to do.

    It doesn't make sense, either. They are thematically different. IRL (I know it's not IRL but still), you need different manufacturing processes for every new thing.

    I do think the Cannith Crafting can be expanded. That would be nice.

    If epic greensteel ever happens, rest assured that you probably won't be use the same ingredients from a level 16 raid, and it will probably use a new alter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    To me it doesn't make sense to use the same ingredients, it is good to have something new to do.

    It doesn't make sense, either. They are thematically different. IRL (I know it's not IRL but still), you need different manufacturing processes for every new thing.

    I do think the Cannith Crafting can be expanded. That would be nice.

    If epic greensteel ever happens, rest assured that you probably won't be use the same ingredients from a level 16 raid, and it will probably use a new alter.
    yes, I can totally see how a chipmunk funk thematically fits into creating an alloy infused with the essence of fiendish dimension :P Kidding aside, I know what you mean, but you can even work it along those lines. Give them generic names like Gems of Power, Mystic Catalyst or some medieval alchemical mumbo jumbo, there is enough lore out there, and then get some ingredient matching the former crafting system in there, I don´t know, like Pit-Fiend Essence from Shroud, Essence of the Lich-God from Abbot etc.

    edit: and you keep having to do something new, you need the special ingredient from the new areas.

  12. #12
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusPossum View Post
    So again...more stuff, and no additional space to store it, right?
    +1, straight to the point, I like it!
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    This is the most perfect suggestion in the history of suggestions, and it is full of upsides for both players and servers.

  13. #13

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    [QUOTE=Nestroy;5241331]The Lamaland discussion might be found here.

    Just my question to turbine: Why making a new crafting system? Don´t we have already plenty systems, some of them meanwhile very outdated (canith, shroud, epic)?

    Because if we didn't get a new crafting system with a new item to build and upgrade anyone would be able to run lower content for material and get a higher end right a way.

    As for crafting - I rather it be crafting. The old epic system and the new normal, hard and elite are terrible. It's way to easy to get an item and once you have it is what it is. Crafting allows you to pace out and 'make' the item that suits you. It gives you options. It's not just x armor - it's x armor with xyz features. The epic system only gives you x item regardless each time with a augment slot (or two). That's it. A crafting system allows you to get the base item and then diversify features. Plus it provides a goal. You don't just get the item, now you have forward looking goal with some incremental work towards it each time. Instead of running x times to get the EE version of an item or y time for someone else.

    As long as Turbine keeps the material needed simple and not a convoluted scheme like with the Cannith Manufactury it's good. That system was terrible You had to run the raids in all type of heroic and epic to get different type of mats and it was a convoluted, confusing and very wasteful system. It was hard to get groups together, took forever to run and ultimately made it hard to set any realistic goals as to when you would have a fully upgraded item.
    Good systems offer diverse ways of craft within a limited amount of material with a somewhat easy way of figuring out about 'when' you can have the item with a tiny and fairly predictable random part in it.
    Lots of materials dilute the spread of material needed. And that's bad. And lots of random factor makes it frustrating. And worst of all, if they're made BTC it's idiotic. BTC is a terrible scheme. BTC should be for items once you crafted the first but never for material. It should matter with what guy you run something for materials. I hope they have learned that from the Eveningstar challenge fiasco.

  14. #14
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    would you rather have randomly generated effects then?
    By no way!

    I would love to see instead:
    If I go into Shroud, I craft crystals. If I go into cannith Factory, I craft crystals. If I get GS base items, I can use the different crystals on it. Canith - fine. Alchemical - fine. Cannith crafting crystals - fine. Why not. The base item can slot one prefix, one suffix (might be interchangeable with flexible shards) and perhaps one special or universal or whatever slot. Let me as the player choose what to craft. Limits? Yes, plenty. First of all, special slot crystals should be hard to come by (only the best / rarest / special event / shroud aplenty of resources should be workable into special crystals). Level limits do apply. And the base items need enough +X to be able to hold the whole magic on them. Paragon or Masterwork items might be keyed for crafting and allow some limited special effects. Alchemical base weapons and greensteel base weapons (and any draconic base items, nightmare base items, dwarfenforged base items, you name it...) have more or better or larger +X and special crystall slots. And finally the level limits with ML would apply, dependent on the base items. If a masterwork item gives a one less relaxed level limit, a +3 item would be min lv. 3 instead of lv. 4... Same goes for GS or Alchemical (could be 2 lv. relaxed) or any other "special" base items. And challenges would provide base items as well...

    Now, that would be a crafting system to play!!!
    3
    Let´s say you have a keyed craftable GS item with a total of +7 slottable space, with one prefix slot, one suffix slot and one special crystall slot. Now I craft a good crystall (good II = +2), one metalline crystall (+2) and still have +3 for special effects free. I get one from the shroud (doublestrike +10%) and slot all three into the weapon. The weapon gets a ML of 18 and works all 3 effects. Two come from cannith crafting, one from shroud crafting. iw ould have been able to slot a frost crystall from the Risia Games festival instead of the doublestrike crystall. Or I would have been able to slot a "smiting II" from Alchemical crafting perhaps? There would be a whole new world of crafting in a uniformed crafting system where all the special crafting systems provide special effects for their resources needed.

    Epic crafting? The system would only provide special crystalls, that could be slotted into existing weapons. Why not?
    Plane of Nightmares? Xoriat? Well, unkeying items or repairing items would still remain independently from the main crafting system. Same with Sora Kell crafting and so on. But!!! But on the same altars with the same resources I could craft / turn in for spcial crystalls, that I could slot into any item able to hold them.

    Hell, even the Augment Crystalls I could make slotable that way.

    Upside for Turbine: Seilling ingrediences and craft boosts. Selling base items (masterwork or the like) and essences. Selling the one rare missing ingredience that is so hard to come by. All this would be possible. And for those preferring the f2p way, all the rare ingrediences would be farmable still. Why not?

    Make crafting worthwile, Turbine! And to my mind, this would require a uniformed crafting system basically, with lots and lots of different "special" or optional crystalls available for the right ammount of grinding or the right ammount of $$$.
    Last edited by Nestroy; 01-31-2014 at 09:00 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default sending a kiss to the devs

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

    The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complex; therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
    Last edited by Grecan; 01-31-2014 at 08:50 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grecan View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

    The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complex; therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
    I do agree with the OP's statement that we already have too many different crafting systems in DDO. And I'd rather them incorporate new things into existing systems than create a new system whenever they feel like it.

    However the entire DDO game is just about the polar opposite of KISS. Just think about the amount of D&D rules, the skills, the feats, the past lives, the classes/races etc. Someone with no knowledge of D&D can't start up this game, create a new character, level it up and be successful without outside help (be it ddowiki or character planner or whatever). There are simply too many rules and exceptions to those rules to make sense from the get go.

    And having a multitude of different crafting systems doesn't really help with lowering that complexity.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grecan View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

    The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complex; therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
    What do you do when the most ridiculously convoluted crafting systems are loved by your playerbase and the simple ones are hated? Do you give your customers what they want or follow a wikipedia page?

    Also, does DDO prove the KISS principle completely invalid?

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Wrong.

    2 extra inventory spaces available.
    Could you expand on this a bit?

  20. #20
    Community Member Luxgolg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Could you expand on this a bit?
    Its in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27amNz2bzLs

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