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  1. #1
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Default Wyrm-Wrought Weapon Crit profile

    Please change all Wyrm-Wrought weapons to have the same crit profile either 19-20/x3 or 18-20/x2. Also all Martial one handed weapons should be d8 base Two handed 2d6, Exotic one handed should be d10. This will open up the customization of weapon selection to allow people to use weapon types that are not just Rapier, Khopesh, and Scimitar. It will also have the effect of giving Two handed weapon users an alternative to the ESoS.

  2. #2
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Please change all Wyrm-Wrought weapons to have the same crit profile either 19-20/x3 or 18-20/x2. Also all Martial one handed weapons should be d8 base Two handed 2d6, Exotic one handed should be d10. This will open up the customization of weapon selection to allow people to use weapon types that are not just Rapier, Khopesh, and Scimitar. It will also have the effect of giving Two handed weapon users an alternative to the ESoS.
    I think the entire point of the new Wyrm-Wrought weapons is to move away from the 20k damage crits. Giving better crits onto the weapons will only make the problem worse.

    Reignbeau, running the Steel Shrine Build
    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  3. #3
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    I think the entire point of the new Wyrm-Wrought weapons is to move away from the 20k damage crits. Giving better crits onto the weapons will only make the problem worse.
    Lol, like the problem is with weapons, problem is in EDs.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    I think the entire point of the new Wyrm-Wrought weapons is to move away from the 20k damage crits. Giving better crits onto the weapons will only make the problem worse.
    Why would people move to WORSE weapons than what is currently available?

  5. #5
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Why would people move to WORSE weapons than what is currently available?
    Because it isn't worse.
    Balizarde does 30 percent more dps.
    Wyrm Wrought does 150 more fire damage points per hit.

    To a new player, 30 percent of 50 Damage is 15 extra Damage.
    150 extra Elemental Damage quadruples his dps.

    This significantly bridges that gap between new and old players.

    Reignbeau, running the Steel Shrine Build
    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  6. #6
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    So, you want to have all weapons that got exactly the same stats?

    IMO, they should be different, but they should exclude khopeshes, as they're 'Thing That Should Not Be'.
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    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Because it isn't worse.
    Balizarde does 30 percent more dps.
    Wyrm Wrought does 150 more fire damage points per hit.

    To a new player, 30 percent of 50 Damage is 15 extra Damage.
    150 extra Elemental Damage quadruples his dps.

    This significantly bridges that gap between new and old players.
    SO 0 more dmg to red dragon, yea, seems better.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Because it isn't worse.
    Balizarde does 30 percent more dps.
    Wyrm Wrought does 150 more fire damage points per hit.

    To a new player, 30 percent of 50 Damage is 15 extra Damage.
    150 extra Elemental Damage quadruples his dps.

    This significantly bridges that gap between new and old players.
    Math please.

  9. #9
    Community Member Xaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Because it isn't worse.
    Balizarde does 30 percent more dps.
    Wyrm Wrought does 150 more fire damage points per hit.

    To a new player, 30 percent of 50 Damage is 15 extra Damage.
    150 extra Elemental Damage quadruples his dps.

    This significantly bridges that gap between new and old players.
    teir 1 damage effects (listed in post, didn't look at alter..

    Touch of Flames: On Hit: 10 to 60 Fire Damage.

    Touch of Shadows: On Hit: 8 to 48 Negative Energy Damage. 1st Degree Burns: On Hit: Applies a stack of Vulnerable (1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) This effect may only occur on-hit once every two seconds. Also 5 to 30 Fire Damage.

    teir 2

    Wrath of Flames: On Hit: 5% Chance AOE 410 to 600 fire damage (DC 50 Reflex Save for half).

    Wrath of Shadows: On Hit: 5% Chance AOE 228 to 380 negative energy damage (DC 50 Fortitude Save for half).

    Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding

    3rd Degree Burns: On Vorpal: 85 to 195 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Hit: 10% Chance Stuns non-bosses 1 sec (DC 45 Fortitude Save).

    teir 3

    Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Vorpal: Inflict a Negative Level (DC 50 Fortitude Save).

    Burning Emptiness: On Vorpal: 55 to 110 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Crit: 108 to 260 Negative Energy Damage.

    Mortal Fear: On Hit: 8 to 64 Force Damage (DC 45 Will negates). On Vorpal: Inflicts Phantasmal Killer (DC 45 Will/Fortitude Save vs. Fear)

    So teir 1 y ou can get fire damage per hit

    teir 2 you can get fire damage on basically a vorpal or bleeding on a crit

    teir 3 is once again fire damage on a vorpal or crit...

    ok in general having run a basic number test set at lunch on balizard versus a rapier with 3 teirs of fire damage, on every str permutation over like 34 balizarde wins hands down...

    running a bali versus a fire kop of this thing, bali wins once your over about 48-52 str

    Granted these were just rough math, nothing definitive just rough hash and the basic number that would fall in a current non centered build, going into the centered builds, these things don't stand a prayer against balizard.... so.... we're gonna put allt hat work into a raid for a weapn that is actually worse


    Sorry there is no extra 150 fire damage per hit, averaged over per hit, crits, voprals,(even on a rapier) is closer to 120

    Now to be fair these weapons at teir 3 against epic normal and epic hard stuff will beat city weapons but against ee... bali, mohrn, sireth, agony... all of them are still better against most stuff when it comes down to ee everything else

    caviat to this is also a lot of the stuff we will face in raids will be undead, and these new weapons because of higher base damage and much high crit invuln on ee will see the new weapons do better (even with black scale and precision)

    I know they said that the loot is (placeholder) but if they started this much work into a system, I don't believe for a second these effects are place holder values, the numbers are all to even and specific..

    If they want these to out class citw the damage procs are gonna have to be more like 1.5x what they currently are. or maybe even moving to 4 weapon or crit adjustment to multiplier or crit profile, though that must be thought out with the amount of on crit effects. Either way as they stand for end game, fully upgraded planar fousced citw main weapons are still better than these things


    Something has to be swung upwards on these to make them better for mele versus citw, and tbh for the work that's probably gonna go into them, the caster sticks probably need a bit of an upgrade to.

    For the dc flavored, you have to go two hander or get kinda hosed on teir 1 (which limits your availability for a 2nd stick with +5 to another school
    150 damage is available on level 28 loot gen sticks in game, should be slightly higher 155/160

    Every casting option in teir 2 is aimed only at dc casters .... should be addressed by moving the teir 3 50 mana proc effects to teir 2

    the 22% crit on an element feels right for damage casters, not much for dc casters (attach another +6 school focus for two handers only one for each school (necro 6 for negative evo 6 for fire, illusion 6 for air, something along those lines.

    Give dc and damage oriented casters reasons to run these things, and two basically completely different styles of sticks to be brought out of them


    Also the saves on the weapons.... reduce the chance % and up the saves for the love of all that's holy taking anything with a save against anything ee is completely and utterly useless, and if these are end game weaponry they MUST be balanced against ee, no matter what player is using them.

    changes that make the weapons better, and better than most other things with exceptions, but I don't think make the power creep much worse than it already is/has been.

    I'll wait and see where these go, but I simply don't believe that any changes will be made to these things damage wise or anything of that nature..... turbines history says other wise... and if these go live like this, it will mean there isn't much point for the end game weapon raiding for most of the *hardcore* or *elite* gamers, or heck just the guys who raid a lot in general, this will be a massive let down, and well, doesn't bode well for those players futures because if you have a new crafting system and its turned like this, what hope does the sentient weapons really have later in the year/next year

    that's my weapon diatribe over

  10. #10
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Math please.
    Yes sir.

    Tier 1.
    Touch of Flames: 10 to 60 fire damage on hit.
    35 average

    Tier 2.
    Dragon's Edge: 33 - 105 bleed Damage on critical hits.
    20.7 average.

    Tier 3.
    Burning Emptiness : 108 - 260 negative Damage on critical.
    492 fire damage on Vorpal.
    55 + 24.6 average.

    Colorless Augment 2d6.
    7 average.

    Grand total: 142 Damage per hit regardless of strength, tomes, epic destiny, ect.

    Reignbeau, running the Steel Shrine Build
    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  11. #11
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Yes sir.

    Tier 1.
    Touch of Flames: 10 to 60 fire damage on hit.
    35 average

    Tier 2.
    Dragon's Edge: 33 - 105 bleed Damage on critical hits.
    20.7 average.

    Tier 3.
    Burning Emptiness : 108 - 260 negative Damage on critical.
    492 fire damage on Vorpal.
    55 + 24.6 average.

    Colorless Augment 2d6.
    7 average.

    Grand total: 142 Damage per hit regardless of strength, tomes, epic destiny, ect.
    Now do the math on how much dps it will do against red dragon that will be endgame.

  12. #12
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Now do the math on how much dps it will do against red dragon that will be endgame.
    Lol. This has nothing to do with you or I. Making a weapon that beats a pinion would be game breaking. This Weapon is welfare for first lifers. I don't think that ddo welfare is such a bad idea. Everyone with a pulse can now do 800 dps, including animal companions. Muhahahahaha.

    Reignbeau, running the Steel Shrine Build
    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  13. #13
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Lol. This has nothing to do with you or I. Making a weapon that beats a pinion would be game breaking. This Weapon is welfare for first lifers. I don't think that ddo welfare is such a bad idea. Everyone with a pulse can now do 800 dps, including animal companions. Muhahahahaha.
    So you think its fine that the highest raid in game gives crappy weapons?

  14. #14
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    So you think its fine that the highest raid in game gives crappy weapons?
    Yes. The point of the raid is to be fun. Putting a mega shiny on it will have dire consequences. Do you honestly want this raid to drop items that will unbalance the game further?

    Reignbeau, running the Steel Shrine Build
    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  15. #15
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    Yes. The point of the raid is to be fun. Putting a mega shiny on it will have dire consequences. Do you honestly want this raid to drop items that will unbalance the game further?
    Dead raid is not my kind of fun.

  16. #16
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Dead raid is not my kind of fun.
    But it won't be dead. This weapon is amazing for first lifers. This weapon gives a no strength Hjealbot 200 dmg hits.
    You could have 6 strength and still do 180 dmg per swing. Dead? No. Every first lifer, flavor build, Hjealbot, ect will want one. This raid will be pugged like Shroud used to be.

    Reignbeau, running the Steel Shrine Build
    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  17. #17
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I'm seeing the problem, but I'm not on board with the solution of just making all the crit profiles on these new weapons better across the board. Yes it's true that one of these new greatswords won't be on par with an ESOS ever unless they upgrade the crit profile, but I think upgrading the profile outside of the actual weapon is the way to "fix" the issue. Instead of making all new greatswords 18-20 x3 or completely useless, make them 19-20 x2 but sprinkle items or enhancements into the game that set the modifier higher. Something like this (arguably overpowered, but it's just an example)

    Enhancement
    Your critical profile with all greatswords becomes 18-20 x3 base

    This enhancement won't make ESoS any better but it brings ALL other greatswords up to that level. Loot gen, old named items and anything new they might create. Forcing an abnormal crit profile on every new weapon just to make it useful is a fix, but it's shortsighted and does nothing to help any other item that doesn't get that profile.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  18. #18
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaxx View Post
    teir 1 damage effects (listed in post, didn't look at alter..

    Touch of Flames: On Hit: 10 to 60 Fire Damage.

    Touch of Shadows: On Hit: 8 to 48 Negative Energy Damage. 1st Degree Burns: On Hit: Applies a stack of Vulnerable (1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) This effect may only occur on-hit once every two seconds. Also 5 to 30 Fire Damage.

    teir 2

    Wrath of Flames: On Hit: 5% Chance AOE 410 to 600 fire damage (DC 50 Reflex Save for half).

    Wrath of Shadows: On Hit: 5% Chance AOE 228 to 380 negative energy damage (DC 50 Fortitude Save for half).

    Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding

    3rd Degree Burns: On Vorpal: 85 to 195 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Hit: 10% Chance Stuns non-bosses 1 sec (DC 45 Fortitude Save).

    teir 3

    Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Vorpal: Inflict a Negative Level (DC 50 Fortitude Save).

    Burning Emptiness: On Vorpal: 55 to 110 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Crit: 108 to 260 Negative Energy Damage.

    Mortal Fear: On Hit: 8 to 64 Force Damage (DC 45 Will negates). On Vorpal: Inflicts Phantasmal Killer (DC 45 Will/Fortitude Save vs. Fear)

    So teir 1 y ou can get fire damage per hit

    teir 2 you can get fire damage on basically a vorpal or bleeding on a crit

    teir 3 is once again fire damage on a vorpal or crit...

    ok in general having run a basic number test set at lunch on balizard versus a rapier with 3 teirs of fire damage, on every str permutation over like 34 balizarde wins hands down...

    running a bali versus a fire kop of this thing, bali wins once your over about 48-52 str

    Granted these were just rough math, nothing definitive just rough hash and the basic number that would fall in a current non centered build, going into the centered builds, these things don't stand a prayer against balizard.... so.... we're gonna put allt hat work into a raid for a weapn that is actually worse


    Sorry there is no extra 150 fire damage per hit, averaged over per hit, crits, voprals,(even on a rapier) is closer to 120

    Now to be fair these weapons at teir 3 against epic normal and epic hard stuff will beat city weapons but against ee... bali, mohrn, sireth, agony... all of them are still better against most stuff when it comes down to ee everything else

    caviat to this is also a lot of the stuff we will face in raids will be undead, and these new weapons because of higher base damage and much high crit invuln on ee will see the new weapons do better (even with black scale and precision)

    I know they said that the loot is (placeholder) but if they started this much work into a system, I don't believe for a second these effects are place holder values, the numbers are all to even and specific..

    If they want these to out class citw the damage procs are gonna have to be more like 1.5x what they currently are. or maybe even moving to 4 weapon or crit adjustment to multiplier or crit profile, though that must be thought out with the amount of on crit effects. Either way as they stand for end game, fully upgraded planar fousced citw main weapons are still better than these things


    Something has to be swung upwards on these to make them better for mele versus citw, and tbh for the work that's probably gonna go into them, the caster sticks probably need a bit of an upgrade to.

    For the dc flavored, you have to go two hander or get kinda hosed on teir 1 (which limits your availability for a 2nd stick with +5 to another school
    150 damage is available on level 28 loot gen sticks in game, should be slightly higher 155/160

    Every casting option in teir 2 is aimed only at dc casters .... should be addressed by moving the teir 3 50 mana proc effects to teir 2

    the 22% crit on an element feels right for damage casters, not much for dc casters (attach another +6 school focus for two handers only one for each school (necro 6 for negative evo 6 for fire, illusion 6 for air, something along those lines.

    Give dc and damage oriented casters reasons to run these things, and two basically completely different styles of sticks to be brought out of them


    Also the saves on the weapons.... reduce the chance % and up the saves for the love of all that's holy taking anything with a save against anything ee is completely and utterly useless, and if these are end game weaponry they MUST be balanced against ee, no matter what player is using them.

    changes that make the weapons better, and better than most other things with exceptions, but I don't think make the power creep much worse than it already is/has been.

    I'll wait and see where these go, but I simply don't believe that any changes will be made to these things damage wise or anything of that nature..... turbines history says other wise... and if these go live like this, it will mean there isn't much point for the end game weapon raiding for most of the *hardcore* or *elite* gamers, or heck just the guys who raid a lot in general, this will be a massive let down, and well, doesn't bode well for those players futures because if you have a new crafting system and its turned like this, what hope does the sentient weapons really have later in the year/next year

    that's my weapon diatribe over
    My Math does not agree with this.

    Asumptions
    Damage Mod: 80 (84 with Planar Focus of Prowess)
    Crit Mod: +2 (Overwhelming Crit + Master Earth Stance)
    Crit Threat +2 (Keen Edge)
    [w]: +1.5 A Dance of Flowers)
    Seeker: +10

    Balizard 4d8 + 92 OnHit: 3d8 2d6, 13-18/x3 19-20/x5
    Avarage Damage: 247.975 (91.975 + 1.95x where x is the damage mod not counting Planar Foucs and Weapon Enh)


    Wyrm-Wrought Rapier Touch of Flame, Wrath of Flames, Burning Emptiness
    Avarage Damage: 303.325 (179.325 + 1.55x)

    When does Balizard beat the Wyrm-Wrought
    91.975 + 1.95x > 179.325 + 1.55x
    87.35 < 0.40x
    218.375 < x

    Math
    Code:
    Balizard 4d8 + 12 3d8 2d6 13-18/x3 19-20/x5 
    0.55(30+x) + 0.90(40+x) + 0.50(40+x) + 0.95(20.5)
    1.95x + 16.5 + 36.0 + 20 + 19.475
    91.975 + 1.95x 
    @x=80 156 + 91.975 =  247.975
    
    Wyrm-Wrought Rapier Touch of Flame, Wrath of Flames, Burning Emptiness
    5d6 + 92 OnHit: 10d6, 13-18/x2 + 108-260 (~184), 19-20/x4, OnVorpal: 410-600 (~505, OnSave: ~252.5) + 55-110 (~82.5)
    0.55(29.5 + x) + 0.60(39.5 + x) + 0.4(39.5 + x) + 0.95(35) + 0.40(184) + 0.05(335)
    1.55x + 16.225 + 23.7 + 15.8 + 33.25 + 73.6 + 16.75 
    179.325 + 1.55x
    @x=80 124 + 179.325
    303.325

  19. #19
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    So, you want to have all weapons that got exactly the same stats?

    IMO, they should be different, but they should exclude khopeshes, as they're 'Thing That Should Not Be'.
    Exclude Khopesh and and then Scimitars and Rapiers become the clear winners the only way to add real diversity that isn't just flavor is to make the weapons have the same base. In this kind of crafting situation I'm a fan of letting the base be consistent for all weapons so that the play can have some choice with there look.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infiltraitor View Post
    But it won't be dead. This weapon is amazing for first lifers. This weapon gives a no strength Hjealbot 200 dmg hits.
    You could have 6 strength and still do 180 dmg per swing. Dead? No. Every first lifer, flavor build, Hjealbot, ect will want one. This raid will be pugged like Shroud used to be.
    lol

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