Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 341
  1. #81
    Legendary Founder Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,806

    Default

    Speaking of enhancements, there is another twist to that I'd like to bring up in terms of the new interface.

    We're keeping our same basic system that we have now, I think it is nearly perfect as is (we WILL be removing that lock thing that happens once you hit "Accept" once we have figured out how to make that work with the AA trees).

    But I'd like to make an addition to it. Dragon and I have discussed this briefly, but not in depth. What is missing from our current system is any kind of ability to "order" the enhancements in the way you prefer. I was working on an "auto distribute" system, but that's fairly limited in what it can do (the planner has no idea what enhancements are important to you as the user, and thus should get priority, it can only sort by prereq requirments).

    So what I would propose is, in addition to our current enhancement UI, we add (probably along the left side) a display that shows all 20 levels with four slots for each level (so 80 slots in total). As you select enhancements in the normal way, the icon for that enhancement fills in, in the bottom most available slot where it is legal to take that enhancement (I'm envisioning level 1 being at the bottom and 20 at the top, with the fields filling it from bottom to top, so it kind of mimics the direction the trees go in, from bottom to top).

    The purpose of this is to show you, at what level, the planner thinks you will be taking that enhancement. But wait, there's more! If you disagree with the planner's assignment, you can actually drag-drop from this list into a different slot than what the planner assigned. Of course, you would still be limited to what is legal in terms of pre-reqs (I'm thinking again, that when you pick up an enhancement icon from one of these slots, we would gray out any illegal slots so you know you can't place the enhancement there).

    This is somewhat complicated by the fact that some enhancements will take up more than one slot, but we can work through that. This would eliminate the need for any kind of "auto distribute" function that we have now. What do you guys think? Useful? Not? Any suggestions for improvement?
    The locus of my identity is totally exterior to me.
    "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." - Satoru Iwata

    DDO Character Planner (Version 04.25.03) (Preview Screenshot) - Now with Warlocky goodness!
    Let's Play DDO!! - My attempt to video document a FULL runthrough of DDO, completionist style (Currently working through level 3 quests)

  2. #82
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    What do you guys think? Useful? Not? Any suggestions for improvement?
    I know that'd be very useful for the Leveller if/when we update it to be able to fill enhancements! :P
    Aside from that, I think it'd be useful to keep the ability to detail characters levels by levels, especially in forum export and print outputs, to make build reproductability easier.
    Owy Evoker FvS / Praledric Completionist Qstaff Rogue/Monk/Druid / Laraeph DC Wizard / Laraelph AA Monk/Ranger/Pally / Gaenry Shiradi Sorc/FvS/Wiz / Reasis SWF Pally & numerous others
    The Leveller for DDO!

  3. #83
    Community Member Devilteck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    354

    Default Pinned Tabs

    Would it be possible to have pinned tabs that can be opened on mouse over and also pinned when needed but still have the main screen for the basic info. So say on the main screen you have the basic layout that you are talking about ron, but on one side or the other have tabs that can be opened and closed at will and pinned also? If you need an example I might be able to get something mocked up in VS express but if you have any newer programming software just use it as an example.


    The sleeper has awakened

    Krakonos The Ancient One Guild leader of Guardians of the Game Khyber

    KrakenHeads(L20 WF THF) Ftr, KrakenSkulzz(L20 WF TWF), KrakenKills(L24 Drow Assisin), Spydraxis, KrakenSouls(L25 Human Fvs), KrakenHealz(L24 Human Cleric), KrakenTunes(L18 Drow Bard/Crafter A150/D150/E150)

  4. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Hmmm, perhaps I see the issue here. I think you may be misunderstanding what we are doing. As we are (currently) envisioning the interface, when you hit any given "edit" button, a whole new screen will pop up. You aren't going to be working in that small area, you will have a large screen devoted entirely to that system (much like we are doing now for the enhancements in the current version of the planner). So screen real-estate is not an issue here, like it is in the current planner iteration.
    The confusion is because you're thinking of multiple monitors where I'm thinking of a single monitor. When you say "always visible on the screen," you mean on another screen, with the entire main screen's viewable area devoted to whichever dialog/tab you have open.

    With only my single screen, the information tab will NOT be "always visible." It will likely almost never be visible, with whatever dialog/tab I'm working on covering it up. I was concerned that you were going in a direction where half my screen would be taken up with unnecessary overview info, like in the current planner. But as you clarified, that won't be the case so it's fine.

    A tabbed interface is much cleaner for a single-monitor setup, while the windowed version is the only way to make use out of a second monitor. I get why you want to make it work for your personal setup. The downside of it being more cluttered for us single-monitor users is an acceptable price to pay.

    Well, for feats in particular, we're thinking along the lines of a table showing all the levels from 1-30 (someone posted a rough mockup on page 2 of this thread that I liked quite a bit), so you can see all your slots at once. And there would be a list of the class/race available feats on one side (with various filters). When you grab one (grab and drop), we would then gray-out all slots that don't fulfill any prereqs (so if you grabbed a feat that needed say a 15 Dex, and you didn't get a 15 Dex until level 8, all slots from 1-7 would gray as soon as you picked up that feat, does that make sense?).
    Yes, this makes sense, and sounds ideal. I also rather liked that mockup from page 2. I'd try to squeeze a BAB column in the feat screen just because it's such a common prereq and it's not intuitively knowable that it'd be nice to just have it on the screen in front of you.

    Oh, and we aren't going to use informational multi-line textboxes like we have in the planner now. Too much screen space being chewed up. Instead we are going to use our tooltip-popup system that I created for the Enhancement screen.
    Nice.

    I get your point about too much information being confusing to the user. On the other hand, there is also a point where too little information would also be a problem. I guess I prefer to err on the side of giving more information to the user rather than less.
    Both give the same amount of information. The difference is that in one you only get one window on your taskbar, whereas the other you get a window for each "tab." Tabbed is cleaner but doesn't support multiple monitors. (Which to me is an extremely niche audience in general, but since you as the actual developer have multiple monitors that changes the equation.)

    Consider from a single monitor perspective: To see the overview, I have to either close the window I'm currently working with, or resize it, or minimize it, or click the overview window on my taskbar. With a tabbed interface all I have to do is click the tab. That's arguably less work. The "more or less information on the screen" is moot; the same information is available (on a single monitor) either way.

  5. #85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon.Star View Post
    First i've heard of this and I think i see what is happening and will see what we can do to fix this issue.
    It's a result of the way the save file is structured. Because each enhancement is saved a single time with the corresponding level at which it's taken, we lose both the information of what order the user took them (within a single level) and also the ability to intentionally reset and redo a tree mid-life.

    I'd switch the save logic to level-based instead of enhancement-based. A little extra code to signify a tree reset and it's good to go. Each time you open the enhancement screen to edit enhancements for whatever level, you could then (behind the scenes) reconstruct the trees in the user's order from level one through the currently selected level.

    When building the Enhancement System, I actually debated this function and what we do now. As you know I went the other way from your suggestion for several reasons (The main one which is paramount in my eyes is that would probably confuse new players as Each level would end up showing its own set of enhancements, you would end up with a lot of duplication in the export and the save files.) We can always take another look at this in the future if there is enough requests for it.
    New players will never open and look at the save files. I definitely wouldn't worry about making the save file intuitive. Which, in terms of the enhancement section, isn't intuitive anyway. Is a new player really going to see "Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-3-6]," (part of my epic farmer's save file) and intuitively know that means I take rank 3 at level 6?

    Duplication in the export and save files is a non-issue, IMO. If the save files go from 6k to 10k, will that really matter? Looking more closely at the save file, the enhancements are already duplicated anyway. In that same save file I have:

    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-2-5],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-3-6],

    That's three lines you're already spending, and switching it to level based would mean it would still take the same (or a similar) three lines. The only actual duplication would be if you reset a tree and then restock it differently in the middle of a life, but that's not duplication, that's actual data.

    I'd argue it would be more intuitive to have the save file structured like:

    Level 1 Enhancements
    Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration I: Grease [0-0-2-1],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Reaping [0-0-0-1],
    Level 2 Enhancements
    Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2-2],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Level 3 Enhancements
    ...etc...

    EDIT: Alternately, for easier parsing, maybe:

    Enh1: Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration I: Grease [0-0-2-1],
    Enh1: Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1],
    Enh1: Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Reaping [0-0-0-1],
    Enh2: Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2-2],
    Enh2: Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Enh3: ...etc...

  6. #86

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Speaking of enhancements, there is another twist to that I'd like to bring up in terms of the new interface.

    We're keeping our same basic system that we have now, I think it is nearly perfect as is (we WILL be removing that lock thing that happens once you hit "Accept" once we have figured out how to make that work with the AA trees).

    But I'd like to make an addition to it. Dragon and I have discussed this briefly, but not in depth. What is missing from our current system is any kind of ability to "order" the enhancements in the way you prefer. I was working on an "auto distribute" system, but that's fairly limited in what it can do (the planner has no idea what enhancements are important to you as the user, and thus should get priority, it can only sort by prereq requirments).

    So what I would propose is, in addition to our current enhancement UI, we add (probably along the left side) a display that shows all 20 levels with four slots for each level (so 80 slots in total). As you select enhancements in the normal way, the icon for that enhancement fills in, in the bottom most available slot where it is legal to take that enhancement (I'm envisioning level 1 being at the bottom and 20 at the top, with the fields filling it from bottom to top, so it kind of mimics the direction the trees go in, from bottom to top).

    The purpose of this is to show you, at what level, the planner thinks you will be taking that enhancement. But wait, there's more! If you disagree with the planner's assignment, you can actually drag-drop from this list into a different slot than what the planner assigned. Of course, you would still be limited to what is legal in terms of pre-reqs (I'm thinking again, that when you pick up an enhancement icon from one of these slots, we would gray out any illegal slots so you know you can't place the enhancement there).

    This is somewhat complicated by the fact that some enhancements will take up more than one slot, but we can work through that. This would eliminate the need for any kind of "auto distribute" function that we have now. What do you guys think? Useful? Not? Any suggestions for improvement?
    I'm not really following this. The planner can easily know when I want to take an enhancement: When I actually take it. Let's say I just spent 8 AP on levels 1 and 2 and now click level 3. The first enhancement I take is the one I want taken first. The second enhancement I take is the one I want second. etc...

    To support the right+click remove functionality, use a stack to hold the enhancements for the current level that the user is currently modifying. Push and pop to/from the stack, removing any add/drops that cancel each other out. Once you've "cleaned" the list by removing the add/drops, save those enhancements in the order they're in in the stack. (Or reverse order, depending how you code the stack.)

    In any case, I wouldn't set a limit or try to make any predictions on the number of enhancements taken in any given level. Consider my pale trapper, which takes no enhancements at all on level 1 because he's a rogue, and then on level 2 spends all 8 AP on wizard enhancements. That could end up being eight different enhancements taken at level 2. (It isn't, of course, but theoretically it could be.)

  7. #87
    Scholar of Treasure Dragon.Star's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fernia / Mornlands
    Posts
    898

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's a result of the way the save file is structured. Because each enhancement is saved a single time with the corresponding level at which it's taken, we lose both the information of what order the user took them (within a single level) and also the ability to intentionally reset and redo a tree mid-life.
    Actually the save file structure does exactly what it is supposed to do. It just doesn't keep track in what specific order you took an enhancement. That was something that was overlooked and really only affected the export option of someone did all enhancement at Lvl 20 per say. Either way you can still use the export guide to level your toon. It shows what enhancement are take at what level, just not in what order for that level.

    This is something I will add in with the new version.

    New players will never open and look at the save files. I definitely wouldn't worry about making the save file intuitive. Which, in terms of the enhancement section, isn't intuitive anyway. Is a new player really going to see "Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-3-6]," (part of my epic farmer's save file) and intuitively know that means I take rank 3 at level 6?
    I believe you are wrong here, new players will open the save files, its what I actually did when first using the planner to fix a bug before I joined the team.

    Duplication in the export and save files is a non-issue, IMO. If the save files go from 6k to 10k, will that really matter? Looking more closely at the save file, the enhancements are already duplicated anyway. In that same save file I have:
    As programmers we are always looking for ways to cut down on duplication where we can. its all about the small footprint.

    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-2-5],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-3-6],

    That's three lines you're already spending, and switching it to level based would mean it would still take the same (or a similar) three lines. The only actual duplication would be if you reset a tree and then restock it differently in the middle of a life, but that's not duplication, that's actual data.

    I'd argue it would be more intuitive to have the save file structured like:

    Level 1 Enhancements
    Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration I: Grease [0-0-2-1],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Reaping [0-0-0-1],
    Level 2 Enhancements
    Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2-2],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Level 3 Enhancements
    ...etc...

    EDIT: Alternately, for easier parsing, maybe:

    Enh1: Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration I: Grease [0-0-2-1],
    Enh1: Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1],
    Enh1: Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Reaping [0-0-0-1],
    Enh2: Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2-2],
    Enh2: Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Enh3: ...etc...
    Both your examples all ready are more than 3 lines, the level for the enhancement is already in the block. Why add it again.

    Either way let move the topics back to UI design and we will worry about the coding needed afterwards.
    Last edited by Dragon.Star; 01-30-2014 at 02:51 PM.
    Guild: Ghallanda Rerolled
    Artamax - Cleandeath - Cleanup - Dragonbound - Draykon - Gully - Magestic - Tinbucket
    DDO Character Planner (Stable: Version 04.20.02) , Version 04.23.1 - Planner 5.0 Interface Discussion

  8. #88
    Legendary Founder Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,806

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In any case, I wouldn't set a limit or try to make any predictions on the number of enhancements taken in any given level. Consider my pale trapper, which takes no enhancements at all on level 1 because he's a rogue, and then on level 2 spends all 8 AP on wizard enhancements. That could end up being eight different enhancements taken at level 2. (It isn't, of course, but theoretically it could be.)
    Ahh, good point, I hadn't considered that scenario. Interesting... Hmmmmm. Okay let me give it some thought. I'd still like the user to be able to override the planner in terms of when to take enhancements.

    What you've described is in fact what the planner does (or it used to anyway, it may not now with the new system come to think of it). However, in my experience, people don't actually take enhancements in the order they actually want to take them in game when designing characters. Generally enhancements are designed at level 20 all at once (not level by level), and they are done by tree (the user will fill in an entire tree before going on to the next tree), which is not at all the order or levels you would actually take them in game. So I do think there is some importance in letting the user specify the actual order they want to use (if that is in fact important to them at all, I realize a certain portion of the user base is content to just leave them all at level 20 on the printout, and in game, pick from this master list as they level up).

    I still feel like some sort of list of icons, from bottom to top, gives us the best (ie the most intuitive) interface for this, which can be dragged up or down as desired. Perhaps on one side of the icons we list the level taken (and this would have to be dynamic rather than static in order to cover cases like you say, where class changes might delay selections, such as taking 8 enhancements at level 2 rather than 4/4 at level 1/2). I dunno, I'm just brainstorming some ideas for it.
    The locus of my identity is totally exterior to me.
    "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." - Satoru Iwata

    DDO Character Planner (Version 04.25.03) (Preview Screenshot) - Now with Warlocky goodness!
    Let's Play DDO!! - My attempt to video document a FULL runthrough of DDO, completionist style (Currently working through level 3 quests)

  9. #89
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX, USA
    Posts
    431

    Default Ty

    Thank you to Ron and any and all who have helped to craft the Character Planner program. I use it, and it is immensely helpful.

    Sincerely,
    Thumbed_Servant (to 3 cats ) I LOVE playing a healer (nannybot to the derisive folks)
    Leader: Order of Sunlit Rose on Argonnessen server
    Current active toons: Hildegarde 22 clr/ Pixsie 20 rog/ Muhther25 clr/ Sheolah 2-14 multi(rog/wiz)/ Heidie 2-7multi(rgr/clr)/ Grindhaus 23 ftr/ Slashira 20 ftr/ Commandur 11 clr

  10. #90
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,134

    Default

    Haven't been running windows for years now and and have been stuck making builds in text documents, Wine compatibility would have been awesome for a UI rewrite but it seems you're probably too far along for that. So the only thing I'd like to see is a web interface, platform neutral and people can check things out on the go.

  11. #91
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    373

    Default

    I was just wondering if there was an ETA on the new planner? I'm actually more excited for this than I am for the new update. And I'm very excited for the new update!

  12. #92
    Legendary Founder Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,806

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaimberland View Post
    I was just wondering if there was an ETA on the new planner? I'm actually more excited for this than I am for the new update. And I'm very excited for the new update!
    With the new interface? No. It may take us a while. A lot of the code in the planner is years old now, and is in desperate need of clean up (and to make it more synergistic with the newer classes). We're going to be revamping huge sections of it. Not only the interface but a lot of other internal code as well (e.g. we're gonna switch to using png graphics rather than bmps, which internally is a huge change to some very old code). We haven't even started coding yet (we're still in design mode).

    In other words, this is a HUGE revamp of the planner, so it's going to take us a bit of time

    Having said that, there is a new version coming imminently, with the old interface (04.20.02) that fixes a few bugs, but mostly we're releasing it to fix a resource leak associated with the enhancement screen that could potentially cause a program crash.
    The locus of my identity is totally exterior to me.
    "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." - Satoru Iwata

    DDO Character Planner (Version 04.25.03) (Preview Screenshot) - Now with Warlocky goodness!
    Let's Play DDO!! - My attempt to video document a FULL runthrough of DDO, completionist style (Currently working through level 3 quests)

  13. #93
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    With the new interface? No. It may take us a while. A lot of the code in the planner is years old now, and is in desperate need of clean up (and to make it more synergistic with the newer classes). We're going to be revamping huge sections of it. Not only the interface but a lot of other internal code as well (e.g. we're gonna switch to using png graphics rather than bmps, which internally is a huge change to some very old code). We haven't even started coding yet (we're still in design mode).

    In other words, this is a HUGE revamp of the planner, so it's going to take us a bit of time

    Having said that, there is a new version coming imminently, with the old interface (04.20.02) that fixes a few bugs, but mostly we're releasing it to fix a resource leak associated with the enhancement screen that could potentially cause a program crash.
    Thanks for the response Ron! I will patiently wait for it. You and your team do a great job!

  14. #94
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    29

    Default

    I do not know if you know the e-Tools, a character planner for D20 (I used its for D&D 3.5 mostly). That application had a very simple interface.

    Other idea could be a ribbon-like interface (I guess you will have discussed it, but I have not want to look at the 93 comments that you have :P):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_%28computing%29

    Each ribbon-tab could represent an aspect of the player sheet, stats, feats, enhancements, etc.

  15. #95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    in my experience, people don't actually take enhancements in the order they actually want to take them in game when designing characters. Generally enhancements are designed at level 20 all at once (not level by level), and they are done by tree (the user will fill in an entire tree before going on to the next tree), which is not at all the order or levels you would actually take them in game.
    I agree that's how many people probably use it.

    So I do think there is some importance in letting the user specify the actual order they want to use (if that is in fact important to them at all, I realize a certain portion of the user base is content to just leave them all at level 20 on the printout, and in game, pick from this master list as they level up).
    I think the group of people who select them all at 20 is the same group that doesn't care about order. It's only logical; if you care about order (like I do) then you assign them level by level. And you choose them in the order you want. And then pull out your hair when the planner changes that order. hehheh.

    I still feel like some sort of list of icons, from bottom to top, gives us the best (ie the most intuitive) interface for this, which can be dragged up or down as desired. Perhaps on one side of the icons we list the level taken (and this would have to be dynamic rather than static in order to cover cases like you say, where class changes might delay selections, such as taking 8 enhancements at level 2 rather than 4/4 at level 1/2). I dunno, I'm just brainstorming some ideas for it.
    I don't object to such an interface; I think it's superfluous but fine. Just please have that interface auto-fill based on the order you actually take the enhancements in the trees. As opposed to leaving it blank and having to be manually filled, which would end up meaning you'd have to select every enhancement twice if you care about order.

  16. #96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I don't object to such an interface; I think it's superfluous but fine. Just please have that interface auto-fill based on the order you actually take the enhancements in the trees. As opposed to leaving it blank and having to be manually filled, which would end up meaning you'd have to select every enhancement twice if you care about order.
    Actually, it occurs to me that any kind of separate UI for the enhancement order would pretty much make resetting a tree mid-build unsupportable. That would be a shame, IMO.

    If you store enhancements taken by level in the data file, in the order they're actually selected in the tree interface, then you could easily support resetting a tree mid-build. Examples where this would be useful:

    - Wizards often change their AM SLAs mid-life. A typical example would be going conjuration for web until you get high enough level to switch to necromancy for enervation.
    - Paladins typically will go hunter of the dead until around 17 or 18, and then switch to fiendslayer.
    - Kenseis may switch up their weapon focus as they level. Maybe greataxes at 4 (carnifex) then greatswords at 10 (sos).

    One example I'm getting ready to start on is a 15/5 paladin/rogue who uses falchion from 1-22, then switches to sireth at 23. With the way the datafile works now, I will need two separate save files to manage my enhancements for that one life. This will be an extensive enhancement change, going from mostly kotc from 1-22 then switching to mostly acrobat at 23. With the current logic of "one line per enhancement" there is simply no way to support tree resets. If you switch it to saving enhancements as they're selected, you can support both the order taken and tree resets in one fell swoop.

    Resetting a tree and re-selecting many of the same enhancements is not duplicate data. That's new, unique data.

  17. #97
    Legendary Founder Ron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,806

    Default

    I'm not seeing the advantage or disadvantage to either method with regards to having multiple enhancement sets. Seems like two entirely separate issues to me.

    Keeping enhancements in the selection order is one way we could do it, sure. However, what if you decide (after filling in all your enhancements) that the enhancement you took way down at level 2 need to move one slot behind the one you took next? The only way to do so with your method would be to reset all your trees and start over.

    Whereas if there is a drag-and-drop interface for moving them, you just pick it up and move it. No need to reset any trees at all. [And just to be clear, the initial selections from the tree would drop into the slots in selection order, as per your method, the only difference really is we have a way to change that order directly on the screen if the user wishes to do so].

    As for the multiple enhancement sets, let me give that a bit of thought. We have never supported that in the planner. And it presents a lot of difficulties in terms of calculations and whatnot. It's not impossible, but it is very problematic. We'd need to give the user some kind of interface that tells the planner "I want to use this set of enhancements through level 5, then I'm going to clear them out and use an entirely different set from level 6 through 12, then I want to clear those out and use THIS set for 13-19, and finally here is a totally new set for levels 20-30". I mean, what would such an interface even look like? How would we present it such that it is not totally confusing to a new user? How would we present that data in the forum export? And what about the paper printout? What would that look like?

    There is a reason we've never supported that functionality. It is very complicated in terms of interface and output (as far as programming goes, it adds a level of complexity to an already very complex system, but it's nothing we couldn't handle with an additional array).
    The locus of my identity is totally exterior to me.
    "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." - Satoru Iwata

    DDO Character Planner (Version 04.25.03) (Preview Screenshot) - Now with Warlocky goodness!
    Let's Play DDO!! - My attempt to video document a FULL runthrough of DDO, completionist style (Currently working through level 3 quests)

  18. #98
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    As for the multiple enhancement sets, let me give that a bit of thought. We have never supported that in the planner. And it presents a lot of difficulties in terms of calculations and whatnot. It's not impossible, but it is very problematic. We'd need to give the user some kind of interface that tells the planner "I want to use this set of enhancements through level 5, then I'm going to clear them out and use an entirely different set from level 6 through 12, then I want to clear those out and use THIS set for 13-19, and finally here is a totally new set for levels 20-30". I mean, what would such an interface even look like? How would we present it such that it is not totally confusing to a new user? How would we present that data in the forum export? And what about the paper printout? What would that look like?

    There is a reason we've never supported that functionality. It is very complicated in terms of interface and output (as far as programming goes, it adds a level of complexity to an already very complex system, but it's nothing we couldn't handle with an additional array).
    It would be a nifty feature when trying to help people with leveling builds. As it stands though, I can quickly and easily copy paste my save files in order to have different sets of enhancements.

    I would push for linux support

  19. #99
    Community Member RD2play's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    524

    Default

    don't know if mentioned yet, but I would like to see a "reset all skills" button .

    sometimes I find out that playing the build doesn't quite work out at lower levels and have to redistribute when I pick certain classes this usually totally messes up the skills an it is a pain to reset them one skill point at the time , Thanks

  20. #100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I'm not seeing the advantage or disadvantage to either method with regards to having multiple enhancement sets. Seems like two entirely separate issues to me.
    Fair enough. I was thinking of some sort of "maximium # of enhancements taken in a given level" setup, which would struggle to handle a level 18 respec with 30+ enhancements taken in a single level.

    Keeping enhancements in the selection order is one way we could do it, sure. However, what if you decide (after filling in all your enhancements) that the enhancement you took way down at level 2 need to move one slot behind the one you took next? The only way to do so with your method would be to reset all your trees and start over.

    Whereas if there is a drag-and-drop interface for moving them, you just pick it up and move it. No need to reset any trees at all. [And just to be clear, the initial selections from the tree would drop into the slots in selection order, as per your method, the only difference really is we have a way to change that order directly on the screen if the user wishes to do so].
    A drag and drop to manipulate the order does sound VERY cool; you have me intrigued. There is certainly some complexity involved with that, but not insurmountable. Quick example:

    All my points go to a single class tree. Level 1 spends one on the first core, three in tier 1. Level 2 spends one (5th spent) in tier 1 then one in tier 2. Right now, those two enhancements taken on level 2 cannot swap spots due to "points in tree" prereqs, so the drag n drop interface will need to check that kind of thing.

    As for the multiple enhancement sets, let me give that a bit of thought. We have never supported that in the planner. And it presents a lot of difficulties in terms of calculations and whatnot. It's not impossible, but it is very problematic. We'd need to give the user some kind of interface that tells the planner "I want to use this set of enhancements through level 5, then I'm going to clear them out and use an entirely different set from level 6 through 12, then I want to clear those out and use THIS set for 13-19, and finally here is a totally new set for levels 20-30". I mean, what would such an interface even look like? How would we present it such that it is not totally confusing to a new user? How would we present that data in the forum export? And what about the paper printout? What would that look like?
    I have a clear vision in my head of how to implement it, seemingly easily. In terms of output, see my epic challenge farmer link in signature, level 13 for an example. Continuing with that example, here's how that build's current save file looks: (Just the enhancement section.)
    Code:
    ENHANCEMENTLIST: 
    Drow::Spell Resistance [0-0-0-1-18],
    Drow::Drow Intelligence [0-1-3-1-19],
    Drow::Spell Resistance [0-2-0-1-19],
    Drow::Drow Intelligence [0-3-3-1-19],
    Drow::Enchantment Lore [2-0-0-1-20],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Reaping [0-0-0-1-1],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Zombie [0-1-0-1-5],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Vampire [0-2-0-1-11],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Wraith [0-3-0-1-12],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Lich [0-4-0-1-18],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Master of Death [0-5-0-1-20],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Negative Energy I [1-2-0-1-17],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1-2],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-2-5],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-3-6],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Negative Energy Conduit [1-4-0-1-13],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Negative Energy Conduit [1-4-0-2-18],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Efficient Maximize [2-1-3-1-9],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Efficient Maximize [2-1-3-2-9],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Efficient Maximize [2-1-3-3-10],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Negative Energy II [2-2-0-1-17],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Corpsecrafter [2-3-0-1-6],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Corpsecrafter [2-3-0-2-6],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Corpsecrafter [2-3-0-3-7],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Eternal Servitude [3-3-0-1-7],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Eternal Servitude [3-3-0-2-7],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Eternal Servitude [3-3-0-3-7],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Intelligence [3-4-2-1-8],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Furor [4-3-0-1-13],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Furor [4-3-0-2-13],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Furor [4-3-0-3-13],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Intelligence [4-4-2-1-12],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Necromantic Focus [5-2-0-1-14],
    Pale Master (Wiz)::Improved Shrouding [5-4-0-1-14],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration I: Grease [0-0-2-1-1],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration II: Web [0-1-2-1-5],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration III: Stinking Cloud [0-2-2-1-11],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration IV: Dimension Door [0-3-2-1-12],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1-1],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2-2],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force I [1-3-0-1-8],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-1-3],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-2-3],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-3-4],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force II [2-3-0-1-10],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force III [3-3-0-1-11],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Intelligence [3-4-0-1-4],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Efficient Heightening [4-1-0-1-15],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Efficient Heightening [4-1-0-2-16],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Primary Spell Focus: Conjuration [4-2-2-1-15],
    Archmage (Wiz)::Intelligence [4-4-0-1-16],
    I would pull the level info out of the (#-#-#-#-#) section and move it to the front of the line, adding in the order data. I'd also add a keyword for tree resets, which happens on level 13 in this example:
    Code:
    ENHANCEMENTLIST: 
    1-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Reaping [0-0-0-1],
    1-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration I: Grease [0-0-2-1],
    1-3::Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1],
    2-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2],
    2-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-1],
    3-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-1],
    3-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-2],
    4-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-3],
    4-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Intelligence [3-4-0-1],
    5-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration II: Web [0-1-2-1],
    5-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-2],
    5-3::Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Zombie [0-1-0-1],
    6-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Skeletal Knight [1-3-0-3],
    6-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Corpsecrafter [2-3-0-1],
    6-3::Pale Master (Wiz)::Corpsecrafter [2-3-0-2],
    7-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Corpsecrafter [2-3-0-3],
    7-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Eternal Servitude [3-3-0-1],
    7-3::Pale Master (Wiz)::Eternal Servitude [3-3-0-2],
    7-4::Pale Master (Wiz)::Eternal Servitude [3-3-0-3],
    8-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Intelligence [3-4-2-1],
    8-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force I [1-3-0-1],
    9-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Efficient Maximize [2-1-3-1],
    9-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Efficient Maximize [2-1-3-2],
    10-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Efficient Maximize [2-1-3-3],
    10-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force II [2-3-0-1],
    11-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force III [3-3-0-1],
    11-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration III: Stinking Cloud [0-2-2-1],
    11-3::Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Vampire [0-2-0-1],
    12-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Wraith [0-3-0-1],
    12-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Conjuration IV: Dimension Door [0-3-2-1],
    12-3::Pale Master (Wiz)::Intelligence [4-4-2-1],
    13-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Furor [4-3-0-1],
    13-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Furor [4-3-0-2],
    13-3::Pale Master (Wiz)::Dark Furor [4-3-0-3],
    13-4::Pale Master (Wiz)::Negative Energy Conduit [1-4-0-1],
    13-5::Archmage (Wiz)::Tree Reset
    13-6::Archmage (Wiz)::Necromancy I: Chill Touch [0-0-6-1],
    13-7::Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-1],
    13-8::Archmage (Wiz)::Energy of the Scholar [1-1-0-2],
    13-9::Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-1],
    13-10::Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-2],
    13-11::Archmage (Wiz)::Improved Empowering [2-1-1-3],
    13-12::Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force I [1-3-0-1],
    13-13::Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force II [2-3-0-1],
    13-14::Archmage (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Elemental and Force III [3-3-0-1],
    13-15::Archmage (Wiz)::Intelligence [3-4-0-1],
    13-16::Archmage (Wiz)::Necromancy II: Command Undead [0-1-6-1],
    13-17::Archmage (Wiz)::Necromancy III: Halt Undead [0-2-6-1],
    13-18::Archmage (Wiz)::Necromancy IV: Enervation [0-3-6-1],
    14-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Necromantic Focus [5-2-0-1],
    14-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Improved Shrouding [5-4-0-1],
    15-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Primary Spell Focus: Necromancy [4-2-6-1],
    15-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Efficient Heightening [4-1-0-1],
    16-1::Archmage (Wiz)::Intelligence [4-4-0-1],
    16-2::Archmage (Wiz)::Efficient Heightening [4-1-0-2],
    17-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Negative Energy I [1-2-0-1],
    17-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Spell Critical: Negative Energy II [2-2-0-1],
    18-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Shroud of the Lich [0-4-0-1],
    18-2::Pale Master (Wiz)::Negative Energy Conduit [1-4-0-2],
    18-3::Drow::Spell Resistance [0-0-0-1],
    19-1::Drow::Drow Intelligence [0-1-3-1],
    19-2::Drow::Spell Resistance [0-2-0-1],
    19-3::Drow::Drow Intelligence [0-3-3-1],
    20-1::Pale Master (Wiz)::Master of Death [0-5-0-1],
    20-2::Drow::Enchantment Lore [2-0-0-1],
    20-3::Drow::Enchantment Lore [2-0-0-2],
    20-4::Drow::Enchantment Lore [2-0-0-3],
    In terms of user interface, I envision no changes to the current setup. I would reconstruct the tree from level 1 through the current level based on the above data whenever they open the enhancement section. So if I went into this build and opened, say, level 15 enhancements, the program would internally erase all trees, spend all the points based on the above data from level 1 to level 15 (including the tree reset), and then display the result to the user.

    EDIT: One thing to keep in mind regarding a secondary interface to set the order is screen space. For us poor souls running 1024x768 there isn't a whole lot of room left over when the tree is on the screen:


Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload