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  1. #121
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    Put LFM for von1, wait 20 mins, noone join.

    Put LFM for von2, wait 30 mins, noone join.

    Put LFM for von3, 3 mins, full group.
    Right, once I did the whole quest with one other guy, lfm was up whole time, eh von3 20-28.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Are you telling me that it wasn't awesome for TRing, or even leveling first life toons quickly?
    This XP change doesn't lower heroic rewards, so there is no 5 year old "awesome" being nerfed in that respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If you are counting epics only, VON 3 has been awesome the entire existence of epics, due to being able to farm seals/shards/scrolls out of it because of the sheer number of mobs and chests compared to the other quests in the series.
    VON3 doesn't even drop shards, but they haven't communicated a change in seal or scroll drops, so there is no 5 year old "awesome" being nerfed in that respect, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The XP of choice of the EyebleedingGrindersUnion® was rusted blades and impossible demands sure, but those quests haven't been nearly as awesome for nearly the amount of time von 3 has. When the cap was 25 you could hit cap without even trying? Yes, by running high xp quests, LIKE VON 3
    Normal run of epic VON3 XP around the middle of 2012 gave ~45k plus optionals:

    Quote Originally Posted by protokon View Post
    So I ran into epic von3 on epic normal and got a nice shot of 45k exp (not including optionals) great! so we go to step back in to do it again and...
    It, as well as many other epic quests, was bumped up in U20 (emphasis mine):

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    ... the shortest epic quests in the game got a moderate xp nerf, while medium length and long quests got massive xp buffs.

    So far I've done a one-and-done EH circuit in the eberron epics: Carnival, Sentinels, Fens, LoD, VON. From what I can gather they are all worth more xp than before thanks to the formula adjustment, some as much as worth twice what they were before. (My VON3 bravery run was worth 160k, where before it would have been around 90-100k.)
    If they indeed cut base Epic XP in half then VON3 is returning to roughly the same XP level it has been prior to U20. Which means: there is no 5 year old "awesome" being nerfed in respect to Epic XP, either; that Matuse was correct in his criticism; and you were off topic or just plain wrong on every point of your defense of this being a nerf to five year old aspects of VON3.

  3. #123

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    Wrong, von 3 has been awesome for longer than 5 years, well into the era before epics. Are you telling me that it wasn't awesome for TRing, or even leveling first life toons quickly?
    Heroic XP hasn't been touched. Stop lying. Again.

    Oh, and this last TR, I skipped all of the VoNs entirely during my heroic life. I felt like getting the first time bonus on the epic completion. Even ignoring them completely, I still trivially streaked through the levels they can be braveried at, without repeating any other quests.

    If you are counting epics only, VON 3 has been awesome the entire existence of epics, due to being able to farm seals/shards/scrolls out of it because of the sheer number of mobs and chests compared to the other quests in the series.
    Laughably wrong.

    1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

    2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

    3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

    4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

    5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

    The only time I ever saw anyone doing VoN3 pre-MotU was to say that they did, or to be able to see "EPIC" in purple on their quest completions.
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  4. #124
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Why is that puzzling? I think that's exactly what they were shooting for...

    And once they fix the shadowfell effect, Mirror Darkly is a fun quest.
    It should give more xp, and yes I don't mind it at all, when I have the time, and if that shadowfail effect was taken away it would be even better.

  5. #125
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    Heroic XP hasn't been touched. Stop lying. Again.

    Oh, and this last TR, I skipped all of the VoNs entirely during my heroic life. I felt like getting the first time bonus on the epic completion. Even ignoring them completely, I still trivially streaked through the levels they can be braveried at, without repeating any other quests.



    Laughably wrong.

    1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

    2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

    3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

    4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

    5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

    The only time I ever saw anyone doing VoN3 pre-MotU was to say that they did, or to be able to see "EPIC" in purple on their quest completions.
    True back then saw more von1 and 2 epics up. still ran von3 but not as much, dont know why hes talking shards, those come from von6.

    von-1 and 4 was my choice for solo farming scrolls.

  6. #126
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    Heroic XP hasn't been touched. Stop lying. Again.

    Oh, and this last TR, I skipped all of the VoNs entirely during my heroic life. I felt like getting the first time bonus on the epic completion. Even ignoring them completely, I still trivially streaked through the levels they can be braveried at, without repeating any other quests.



    Laughably wrong.

    1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

    2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

    3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

    4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

    5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

    The only time I ever saw anyone doing VoN3 pre-MotU was to say that they did, or to be able to see "EPIC" in purple on their quest completions.


    5 for 5 Matuse. Well done.

  7. #127
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    Laughably wrong.
    This is incorrect. 1/5 There are many things about that era you are either forgetting, or purposely leaving out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.
    Nope, they were easy to kill due to having low fort saves in the stun+autocrit era. Monks had handwraps that procced a no-save stun as well. Autocrit with picks was the best way to kill them. Did you not remember stunning 10% or was it left out on purpose. Monks, and pick and hammer (stun only on blunt in that era) builds disregard SR. It was all about rate of attack to get that 10% no save stun to proc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.
    I wish we were back in that era, because id challenge that. Youd be done with one due to crit fishing and firewalling, and be maybe a third of the way into 2 when we completed. Yeah Von 1 was cheeze-able big time. It wasnt about difficulty of killing mobs, it was about perching and crit fishing in every stage of the quest.

    Faster wasnt the issue back then as we didnt get XP. Loot chance was the issue, which was based on mumber of mobs and number of chests. Epics were also on a 1/day timer, so the same quest couldnt just be farmed over and over again after completion. There was a time when we could re-enter epics, but that was not the entire era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?
    Yeah so i put all components into my post rather than just the ones that could be farmed out of von 3...woops. Do you put yourself to the same scrutiny for your first line there? Because drow were far easier to kill back then. I realize casters moaned and groaned because their one trick pony spells werent getting through the SR, but they could just as easily be firewalled as you explain later, and stuns were far easier to land on drow than ogres and trolls - not to mention monks had wraps that procced a no save stun. Autocrit killed mobs very quickly back then, regardless what mob type they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.
    You mean that is somehow faster than ransacking the first couple cheasts in eVON 3? Nope. Not in the era when they allowed re-entry anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.
    Scrolls were easily had when farming seals. The people who farmed von 1 for scrolls usually did so if that was the last item needed or if they wanted to sell them for plat.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-24-2014 at 05:59 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #128

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    Youd be done with one due to crit fishing and firewalling
    No, I never played an arcane beyond level 3 prior to MotU.
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  9. #129
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    What's puzzling is that through a mirror darkly will now give more xp/min than Von 3 ever gave, but of course not solo. It requires at least a party of 4 to do it the super fast way - divide and conquer.
    Wiki has awesome guide ( and I think author even posted it here somewhere ).
    With DD it takes us maybe 20 mins on EE including beholder.
    Oh and you are much better with LESS people.

    Increase of XP for all those quests like WGU is good decision.
    Thrudh mode on : But people might try running what they LIKE and something for change of scenery instead daily EH vons, wizkings or demands.
    Last edited by Encair; 01-25-2014 at 02:36 AM.
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  10. #130
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Wiki has awesome guide ( and I think author even posted it here somewhere ).
    With DD it takes us maybe 20 mins on EE including beholder.
    Oh and you are much better with LESS people.

    Increase of XP for all those quests like WGU is good decision.
    Thrudh mode on : But people might try running what they LIKE and something for change of scenery instead daily EH vons, wizkings or demands.
    What I "like" is fast XP/min. This "adjustment" brings the max i can get down, no matter what quests I am running. Hence, I am unhappy. You all can whine about what you think is right or wrong. I am saying that it is stupid to nerf things people like if you want to keep customers.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    They could have made getting com$1 at a higher rate $2synergize with getting xp at a higher rate, but they purpo$3ely de$4igned tho$5e two $6situations to be polar oppo$7ite$8. Now why would they do $omething like that?
    To make you manically put eight dollar signs in the same sentence about a week after you put 5 "p2w"'s in the same sentence?

    But hey at least "p2w" has something to do with nerfing the most out of wack XP reward in the game, while buffing the XP of a bunch of other quests.... oh wait that's right it doesn't have anything to do with that.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Why is that puzzling? I think that's exactly what they were shooting for...

    And once they fix the shadowfell effect, Mirror Darkly is a fun quest.
    This is just my opinion of course...

    It will be like spies in the house. People will farm through a mirror darkly, but they won't up the group up to random people who are often new/casual players. Nobody cares about accepting people in Jungle of Khyber because

    1) it's easy to get to the quest
    2) it's linear so the party sticks together
    3) the end boss has been bugged since U14 and is incredibly easy to take down. That used to be a really tough fight on epic once upon a time.

    Nerfing Von3 by 50% is taking away casual players ability to farm efficiently and get their first player to cap with limited play time and usually with a character that can't contribute as much to a party. LFMs will dry up for Von3 if xp is cut in half. It will be a once and done quest.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    So wrong it defies belief. The XP is good. The XP/min isn't.

    It wasn't before. It's even less now. See quest list in my sig for details.
    Uh... unless my phone is formatting your spreadsheet wrong the link to your spreadsheet shows It very much was best XP/min before by well over 1k per minute over most other quests. at 9.8k per minute, and the nearest competition are not remotely popular runs (fathom the depths) at 8.5k. So.....

    Not that any of this nit picking matters for 95% of players it very much was great XP/min and still will be pretty darn good. Von 5 just became a little more popular. Truth is most players just do what's on the LFM panel that they are familiar with and that have big gaudy XP totals at the end filling LFM's much faster.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  14. #134
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Truth is most players just do what's on the LFM panel that they are familiar with and that have big gaudy XP totals at the end filling LFM's much faster.
    Everyone is fimiliar with Von 3 hence everyone runs it. I think you will see less lfm's now as it is easier to do shadow fail in smaller groups. And if what you say is true not as many people are fimiliar with SH or the prison, so that could really hinder the do grind of the casuals.
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Uh... unless my phone is formatting your spreadsheet wrong the link to your spreadsheet shows It very much was best XP/min before by well over 1k per minute over most other quests. at 9.8k per minute, and the nearest competition are not remotely popular runs (fathom the depths) at 8.5k. So.....
    You're absolutely right, completion time on the uploaded spreadsheet was 15 mins. Numbers I have on my local copy has 32 minutes although I can't think why it would have such a high number.

    I don't believe I'm going to do this but .... Thrudh, a sincere apology for the misplaced rant. Based on the numbers I had previously put together ... you ... are ... right ... I ... am ... wrong

    Wire brush and Dettol required ... need to go scrub myself clean now ....

    Waaaait a minute. He was saying that it's still the best XP after the change. Phew. Close one. Still have some epidermis left.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    They are cutting it by 50%. It will still be top or close to top in the game in regards to XP/min.

    I will still run in into the ground, because the XP will still be THAT good.
    OP makes a valid point and along comes ^ brown-nose...
    Post was asking you specifically. Troll On...

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You're absolutely right, completion time on the uploaded spreadsheet was 15 mins. Numbers I have on my local copy has 32 minutes although I can't think why it would have such a high number.

    I don't believe I'm going to do this but .... Thrudh, a sincere apology for the misplaced rant. Based on the numbers I had previously put together ... you ... are ... right ... I ... am ... wrong

    Wire brush and Dettol required ... need to go scrub myself clean now ....
    Really nothing at all wrong with acknowledging a correction of some sort or a different understanding based on reasonable discourse. It's refreshing. +1

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    The net is easy to calculate, its closer to 120k added and 20k subtracted for a net increase in quest XP of 100k. Of course, there are some other factors you'll want to calculate before declaring a net win. First, optional XP, at least in theory, is automatically calculated in game as a function of quest base XP. VoN3 has many objectives so it is most likely going to mean even more XP is being subtracted (though I have not confirmed if it was set to retain the old amounts). The second thing is we know that it takes about 10 minutes to run a VoN 3 in a typical TR zerg party. So, you are loosely losing 2k XP/min. This is not counting optionals or the interaction of XP boosts. You would want to look at the list of quests and figure out the time it takes to run each quest to see where 2K XP/min is being added, assuming its easily equal to get the same XP bonuses in quest and the number of available optionals. If you can't find it, then that means you have to factor in additional time spent running to a different quest, or the amount of time it takes you to run a quest twice or more to regain the lost amount of XP.

    XP is only one part of this equation, the other part is time. If rebalancing XP in quests means I can spend the same or less time in a greater variety of quests for the same net effect on my character, then I'm happy for that change. If rebalancing XP in quests mean I have to spend significantly more time to get the same net effect, then I'm a little less thrilled. Sure, I don't think people should cap characters over night (I also level hella slow). The change to VoN 3 may be a net positive, but I'm not convinced yet without in-game experience. And I worry that I see a game design philosophy that encourages making processes a slog at the same time you sell products to reduce that slog, so I'm prone to skepticism when I see a big change like this one.
    ah yes i forget that often, since i'm not afraid to spend half an hour in a quest, nor afraid to those ugly wildnerness areas that scare people so much.
    And yes i was exagerating with the million, just trying to keep the drama at minimum.

    You guys can see the empty half of the glass and say "OMG no xp per minute" or you can see the filled half and be happy

    IF my character needs to spend 20 minutes doing von3 and another quest instead of 10 minutes in von 3 to get any kind of achievement, i'm happy, means more DDO for more time before it gets too old.

    IF my character needs to spend 10 minutes in VON3 to get an achievement, and getting the next achievement means i need to do von3 again and give me no other option (because there is no other lfm at level, because instead of running 1 more quest it means to run 5 and i lack of the time, etc, etc) i get bored. But that's my own feeling about the game, not saying you should be like me, idc what people do (just answering cause of the cite btw)

    edit: did that sound rude ? not my intention, i just don't speak english. (there is such an amount of sensitive pple here i rather make that clear)
    Last edited by harry-pancreas; 01-27-2014 at 09:44 AM.
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