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  1. #41
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    Hi,

    I think Turbine needs to look at the role of instakills in this game in general.

    As cheesy as I thought quivering palm had become, it seems like it's been hit very hard, and apparently with no attempt to balance it in the relation to caster classes.

    My view of this is that classes with instakills should be able to reach usable DCs even in upper level EE content by investing in a suitable build and gear.

    However, I'd also like to see cooldowns for instakills modified so that there is no instakilling mobs every few seconds by spamming the same low-cost ability or, for that matter, cycling a series of spells and/or SLAs.

    Thanks.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    I think Turbine needs to look at the role of instakills in this game in general.

    As cheesy as I thought quivering palm had become, it seems like it's been hit very hard, and apparently with no attempt to balance it in the relation to caster classes.

    My view of this is that classes with instakills should be able to reach usable DCs even in upper level EE content by investing in a suitable build and gear.

    However, I'd also like to see cooldowns for instakills modified so that there is no instakilling mobs every few seconds by spamming the same low-cost ability or, for that matter, cycling a series of spells and/or SLAs.

    Thanks.
    The entire concept of monks being instakillers is ******** and has no basis in PnP, was pulled completely out of the air by a dev who wanted to buff hie favorite class.

    Nerf them some more.

  3. #43
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    A very heavy handed nerf that wasn't needed to be so harsh.

    I agree some balancing was needed, but this is typical chainsaw when a scalpel would've done the job.

    And, to all those cherry picking pnp arguements this isn't pnp.
    Git off mah lawn!

    If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

  4. #44
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    Default Removal of the Sunder bonuses

    Decided to check on the impact on my monks and it's pretty devastating.
    My main monk build stands to lose 35DC from his QP which currently sits at 73 (3 Ftr PL, 3 WF Tactics, 3 Kensai, 10 Sundering, 6 Legendary Tactics, 2 Tactition, 3 GMoF, 5 Mastery). That's almost half his DC and this is not a theoretical build. This is real. This is a build that is a completionist with maxed out fate points to get there.

    My pure monk Henshin is sitting with a 73 as well and would lose 31DC (3 Ftr PL, 2 HElf Dilly, 10 Sundering, 6 Legendary Tactics, 2 Tactition, 3 GMoF, 5 Mastery). Also close to half of his DC.

    Will it make a real difference? Only in killing trash which is why I cannot understand why people thought it was OP. All that will happen is that QP will once more become unused.


    It would be very interesting to see any other type of toon have any of their DCs get nerfed by half to see the reaction. Sure it was high but you had to really build for it to get up there which takes a lot of effort.

    Now PM's definitely needed a boost for EE content. On EH or below the PM is a God but other than shelling out tonnes on abishai cookies, yugo pots and store pots it's pretty difficult to get DCs close to or above 70. My PM currently sits without pots with a 63 necro DC (10 less than the monk) and he's nowhere near as built up as the monk having only 3 wiz and 3 FvS past lives for the Spell Pen.

    If the devs really wanted to try to get them in line with caster DCs then the nerf should only have been by around 10 but I'm not sure if balance was what they had in mind.
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  5. #45

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    Let's apply it to casters too. 4 level 9 spells (+maybe 1-2 if you have a high BASE--not buffed-- int) should be enough for you every shrine amirite?
    That battle was lost long ago, during alpha and the implementation of rest shrines.

    Give QP a cooldown of 10 minutes. Then you can stack whatever bonuses you like on it.

    If casters had to play by the SRD like you want monks to, the amount of whining would probably form a black hole of suckitude.
    The game would be radically different. But it's not, so let's work with what we have now, ok?

    Speaking of SRD, those past lives you have buffing your DC? Gone. Items with enchantment bonuses to DC? Gone. I'd be ... just like you want monks to be -- and then DC casting would be dead in epic anything.
    If we were to put in real epic spells, casters would dominate all content to an extent that you can't even imagine. EE CitW? Solod by any wizard in less than 5 minutes. The only thing that would slow it down would be Ana's footspeed.

    As long as you're deciding to stick with the SRD, say goodbye to all of those choice bonus monk feats, and their innate dodge. While you are at it, every single enhancement tree goes bye-bye!

    All I can say is if they go ahead with the change, I really hope turbine applies it to casters too. Come on, +4dc stacking every time you cast should be good enough right?
    1) Your assumption that Monks should have some kind of mastery of insta-killing is basically and fundamentally flawed. Quivering Palm should NEVER have been put to the status it currently enjoys. Honestly, whichever dev who even conceived of the idea (to say nothing of implementing it) should be fired for gross incompetence. Just because you've been spoiled by something that never should have existed in the first place is not a good enough reason to continue with that thing.

    2) While running in Air or Earth stance (so no +ki from Fire), I can run off QP every time it comes off of cooldown without running out of Ki. I mean, not ever running out of Ki. It has a shorter cooldown than Finger of Death, it works far more often, it automatically bypasses spell resistance, it requires far less investment in order to get it work, and I will never, ever run out of uses of it, and never need to shrine. My main is currently on a monk life and went pure 20 monk. From 1-27 where I am right now, I can count on one hand the number of times I've used a rest shrine over the entire life of the character. Spellcasters run out of SP. Yes, they do.

    3) If Quivering Palm were to be removed from the game entirely, Monks would still be ridiculously strong.

    4) Say hello to Wail Of The Banshee for me, K? No nerfs there!
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  6. #46
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    Okay, let's not stick to the SRD. Let's get the QP DC back off of 10+half+wis that's in the SRD. Because saves here aren't what you'd find in the MM either.

    I'm okay either way. I'm not okay with "let's nerf this one class and buff others at the same time!" as casters pick up +2-3 or more DC (stacking gems of DC, plus the new raid gear (tentatively) having craft-your-choice +6(?) DC).

    Monks will still be strong, but it is stupid to nerf a level 15 ability and turn monk into "splash 2, 6 or 12 -- never pure" class, which is nearly what they're doing.
    Last edited by Rhysem; 01-26-2014 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamkriz View Post
    On EH or below the PM is a God
    This is the problem with DC casters. Most of the time they are massively overpowered... and it is only in upper EEs where the DCs get away from them. Yet DC casters do a lot of complaining (irrespective of whether justified or not) and when balancing to DC casters comes, DC casters are very hard to balance without completely overpowering them again and the cycle repeats.

    Having more mobs with use of DW/Epic Ward would go some way to limiting both monks and DC casters and make combat more engaging again without just bloating mob HPs.
    Fafhryd
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  8. #48
    Community Member inspiredunease's Avatar
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    The PnP/SRD discussions are irrelevant, they're balancing this game, not a completely un-related theatre studies group for socially ******** people. Casters will get buffed again for a while until the seesaw of wah swings the other way and they get renerfed. I very much doubt monks will ever get QP back. I will simply stop building for it and enjoy less diversity in my monk builds. Casters can build DPS or DC-based instakill characters, both of whom benefited from great crowd control. I can now only build my monk for DPS. Less choice is never a good thing.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    This is the problem with DC casters. Most of the time they are massively overpowered... and it is only in upper EEs where the DCs get away from them. Yet DC casters do a lot of complaining (irrespective of whether justified or not) and when balancing to DC casters comes, DC casters are very hard to balance without completely overpowering them again and the cycle repeats.

    Having more mobs with use of DW/Epic Ward would go some way to limiting both monks and DC casters and make combat more engaging again without just bloating mob HPs.
    Players can have extra resistance vs spells. I don't see mob can not have the same saves buff against player spells. So there is no need for spell casters DCs to effect tactics DCs.
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  10. #50
    Community Member -Zyxas-'s Avatar
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    It's (supposed to be) only no Sunder bonuses now. Llamaland release notes say that tactics bonuses were added back in except for Sunder. So only -10 or 11 or whatever DC.

    I don't know if they have it implemented correctly yet, but that's what the release notes say (2/1/2014, possibly earlier).
    DISCLAIMER: Forums are a place of help - and of opposition... I'm not attempting to spark hostility. I state my opinions because I think they are useful. It is the reader's choice whether to adopt my opinions. I want to show people different reasoning and options so they can enjoy the game more fully. Usually this leads to walls of text. Sorry.

  11. #51
    Community Member Daitengu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The entire concept of monks being instakillers is ******** ...
    It's not! Ever heard of Dim Mak?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    1) Your assumption that Monks should have some kind of mastery of insta-killing is basically and fundamentally flawed. Quivering Palm should NEVER have been put to the status it currently enjoys. Honestly, whichever dev who even conceived of the idea (to say nothing of implementing it) should be fired for gross incompetence. Just because you've been spoiled by something that never should have existed in the first place is not a good enough reason to continue with that thing.
    Nice, enjoy your ban!
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  13. #53
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    Looking at this from a more average monk's perspective

    +5 tomes are rare/expensive. many characters don't have the resources. Other item bonuses will take time to get
    +3 for one of two races
    +3 for past lives
    18 is a high score for many monks-- a lot of builds have a more balanced score of 16
    Picking 6 wisdom from any ed that parallels the class will gimp other aspects


    Now, for any monk to have one or two of these is intelligent. for the average monk to have all is unlikely. you would only see this on a monk built specifically for DC's with resources.

    The average monk might have 70 as a max in ocean. dropping it to 60 for a non optimized monk(monks get this: casters can pick what they want to fill slots with) leaves it relevant in en and eh, and a few failed attempts will get a ee-- but perhaps not the same mob you started with.

    Also, spell instant kills have damage or negative levels on a save, QP doesn't.

    The only word I have seen is removing shattering specifically(+10). Combat mastery, legendary tactics, etc should still work.

    I don't think this is an unreasonable nerf, though I think the monk trees could use a tactical feat enhancement, and QP might deal damage or a neg on a save.

  14. #54

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    Seems to me that all of the things that are being removed aren't inherently part of a Monk's style, anyway.

    But here's my take on it since it really seems that the thread hasn't noted it.

    Quivering Palm (which also exists in other games such as the Neverwinter Nights series) was never meant as a spamming, insta-kill attack as most people wanted to use it. To my interpretation and use, it's a simple assassinate-like attack, meant for a quiet, quick, isolated takedown.

    Based on the upgrade and renerfing, the devs have come to remember this and are back into balance control.

    I would rather that QP gets a longer cooldown, such as 1 minute. That doesn't reduce its effectiveness with the various things that could raise its success but does limit it's spamming ability.

    QP's changes seem reflective of what Update 19 did to the former "Void Strike IV," now just "Void Strike" and only available to a tier 5-trained Henshin Mystic. It had a chance of insta-kill as well but now no other Monks can access this (or its charm finisher). That one upset me more than this change, but I'd rather see QP slowed than its DC nerfed--although the 3-min perseverance bonus until it works seems like a mild compromise.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Based on the upgrade and renerfing, the devs have come to remember this and are back into balance control.
    One of the prime examples of the total lack of direction of this game.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    Nice, enjoy your ban!
    I'm not linked to Turbine, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't read the "terms of whatever's" closely...ever. So my opinion is just an opinion and doesn't count for much. But in my opinion, the quote you indicate as banworthy is not banworthy because it doesn't actually name a specific dev. Or at least that's been my experience, as I've frequently used some pretty harsh words when I talk about the "dev team" or "turbine", but have never been directly critically of any specific dev by name.
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    One of the prime examples of the total lack of direction of this game.
    Is it? How?

    You don't expect the developers to be perfect, I'm sure. So why raise that bar impossibly high to automatically disappoint yourself?

    DDO is a game to us but a very complex world with precarious checks and balances to environment, rules and characters for the developers. We can hardly expect and certainly never demand perfection, only that a reasonable balance comes to the forefront eventually.

    DDO must have some direction; you're still playing. None of us are going to play in chaos.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Is it? How?

    You don't expect the developers to be perfect, I'm sure. So why raise that bar impossibly high to automatically disappoint yourself?

    DDO is a game to us but a very complex world with precarious checks and balances to environment, rules and characters for the developers. We can hardly expect and certainly never demand perfection, only that a reasonable balance comes to the forefront eventually.

    DDO must have some direction; you're still playing. None of us are going to play in chaos.
    I think chaos is a part of the MMO industri. If they wanted balance, im pretty damn sure they would have done a better a job at it. Oddly enough any game with some competitive orientation has very few if any ground breaking balance shifts..
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    It's (supposed to be) only no Sunder bonuses now. Llamaland release notes say that tactics bonuses were added back in except for Sunder. So only -10 or 11 or whatever DC.
    Exceptional Combat Mastery isn't working either.
    On Thelanis: Hallelujah (Spellsinger) - Jerryrigged Juggernaut (caster FvS) - Sepulchral (Druid) - Chopchopchop (Warlock) - Alleyshadow (retired gimped monkcher). Formerly on Keeper : Misericordia (Thug) - Mumbo Jumbo (Battle Caster) - Infernal Can (WF Kinda Cleric) - Halleluyah (Melee Spellsinger).

  20. #60

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    Ok, so exactly what *IS* working with Quivering Palm now?..

    Combat Mastery Items?
    Epic Destiny Tactician feat?
    Legendary Dreadnought - Legendary Tactics?
    Grand Master of Flowers - Innates?
    Fighter Past Life Bonuses?
    Kensai Fighter Tactics?
    Half-Elf Fighter Tactics?
    Half-Orc Sunder Bonuses?
    Dwarf Tactics Bonuses?
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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