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  1. #1

    Default Removal of Sundering Bonuses to QP

    The Update 21 patch notes include:

    Miscellaneous Changes:
    The Monk's Quivering Palm ability is getting some revisions related to its DC, as part of investigation into balancing Death effects. Quivering Palm no longer benefits from Sundering bonuses. However, whenever an enemy saves vs. Quivering Palm, you get a stacking +4 bonus to your Quivering Palm DC. This stack is dispelled when you successfully kill someone with Quivering Palm. We are keeping an eye on these numbers and they may be changed in the future.
    This is the full text of Quivering Palm:
    Melee Attack: Deliver a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through your target. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + 1/2 Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier). When an enemy saves vs. Quivering Palm, you gain a stacking +4 Perseverance bonus to your Quivering Palm DC until you kill an enemy with Quivering Palm (or 3 minutes pass)."

    This clearly is a substantial change to the performance of monks.
    Fafhryd
    Heroic and Epic Completionist Monk: 27 Heroic PL / 8 Iconic PL / 23 Epic PL

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    Community Member Arianka's Avatar
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    Teh_Troll will b exstatic!

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    So ultimately what does this mean?

    What is Lives current QP DC that can be reached?
    What is LAMA's proposed change reducing it too? Loosing Sundering Items bonus (+10/+11), maybe Combat Mastery (+5/6)

    So are we talking 75 DC (old) to 60 DC (new), with it still benefiting from Improved Sunder -3 Fort Save and also getting a +4 stacking DC bonus until something is killed with QP using Ki which is renewable by "hitting stuff"

    You have to understand that I don't actually believe that an ability that has such a low cost to achieve should be greater than an ability that requires the dedication of feats and enhancements to achieve such as Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Favored Soul Instant Death spells.

    What I see from this change is not an ability that has become useless, but one that now is tactical in nature but can still be good in a pinch. Of course it appears to be more effective with more Monk levels.

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    Community Member stoopid_cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post

    What I see from this change is not an ability that has become useless, but one that now is tactical in nature but can still be good in a pinch. Of course it appears to be more effective with more Monk levels.
    Most intelligent reply I have seen to the QP change so far!
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    I guess pants can be optional

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    So ultimately what does this mean?

    What is Lives current QP DC that can be reached?
    What is LAMA's proposed change reducing it too? Loosing Sundering Items bonus (+10/+11), maybe Combat Mastery (+5/6)

    So are we talking 75 DC (old) to 60 DC (new), with it still benefiting from Improved Sunder -3 Fort Save and also getting a +4 stacking DC bonus until something is killed with QP using Ki which is renewable by "hitting stuff"

    You have to understand that I don't actually believe that an ability that has such a low cost to achieve should be greater than an ability that requires the dedication of feats and enhancements to achieve such as Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Favored Soul Instant Death spells.

    What I see from this change is not an ability that has become useless, but one that now is tactical in nature but can still be good in a pinch. Of course it appears to be more effective with more Monk levels.
    The distinction with caster instant kills is just that - they are casts, have long ranges, are available all the time without resource constraints. How many times playing a monk with casters in the group do you go running off to a mob and have it dead before you get there. The highest level EEs were the only place that this didn't happen reliably.

    I can say that with this change, QP or building around QP is a fairly useless exercise. Sunder sunder sunder, qp qp boom. You will be an old man by the time that goes off. You are far, far better off changing to an actual DPS toon and just killing the mob.
    Fafhryd
    Heroic and Epic Completionist Monk: 27 Heroic PL / 8 Iconic PL / 23 Epic PL

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    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    changing to an actual DPS toon and just killing the mob.
    Like the rest of us mere mortals that don't play monks. lol
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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    The distinction with caster instant kills is just that - they are casts, have long ranges, are available all the time without resource constraints. How many times playing a monk with casters in the group do you go running off to a mob and have it dead before you get there. The highest level EEs were the only place that this didn't happen reliably.

    I can say that with this change, QP or building around QP is a fairly useless exercise. Sunder sunder sunder, qp qp boom. You will be an old man by the time that goes off. You are far, far better off changing to an actual DPS toon and just killing the mob.
    Outside of drinking potions for SP, caster spells do have a Limited number of casts - Lets leave the DDO store out of the discussion for just a bit and get to the root. What will the new DC be? Will it be higher than say a Wizard that has dedicated 2 feats for DCs, and feats for Spell penetration (because QP does not have an SR check) as well as points in enhancements for the purpose of DCs?

    Will it be slightly less? Or will it be significantly less?

    If is also not true that a caster is out of harms way when they cast, the terrain has a lot to do with how relatively safe they are, as does the Dodge/Other miss bonuses dictate how save a Monk is while in combat.

    Ki is renewable without the DDO store or buying Potions off the AH or using a stack of potions collected over 6 years of playing.

    So again, lets not focus on how big the drop in DC is, but in what the END DC is with the proposed new calculation... Is it still greater than a Caster or is it significantly less?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Outside of drinking potions for SP, caster spells do have a Limited number of casts - Lets leave the DDO store out of the discussion for just a bit and get to the root. What will the new DC be? Will it be higher than say a Wizard that has dedicated 2 feats for DCs, and feats for Spell penetration (because QP does not have an SR check) as well as points in enhancements for the purpose of DCs?

    Will it be slightly less? Or will it be significantly less?

    If is also not true that a caster is out of harms way when they cast, the terrain has a lot to do with how relatively safe they are, as does the Dodge/Other miss bonuses dictate how save a Monk is while in combat.

    Ki is renewable without the DDO store or buying Potions off the AH or using a stack of potions collected over 6 years of playing.

    So again, lets not focus on how big the drop in DC is, but in what the END DC is with the proposed new calculation... Is it still greater than a Caster or is it significantly less?
    Yes, I'm sure a few thousand SP makes you really worried about not having SP to insta kill at max range.
    Fafhryd
    Heroic and Epic Completionist Monk: 27 Heroic PL / 8 Iconic PL / 23 Epic PL

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    Yes, I'm sure a few thousand SP makes you really worried about not having SP to insta kill at max range.
    Fine, I concede that point that the limit is high...

    Now what is the DC of QP with the proposed change? Will it be in the 40s? 50s? 60s? still...

    Keep in mind a DEV has confirmed that the +4 for a failed QP stacks with itself...

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Fine, I concede that point that the limit is high...

    Now what is the DC of QP with the proposed change? Will it be in the 40s? 50s? 60s? still...

    Keep in mind a DEV has confirmed that the +4 for a failed QP stacks with itself...
    The new QP will be brilliant on a mob with a bajillion HPs but can still be QPed... fail again and again.. again and again... until you get it. Fairly unlikely scenario, of course.

    They should just bring back Epic Ward imo. Have no one insta kill. I preferred combat in that era of the game anyway.
    Fafhryd
    Heroic and Epic Completionist Monk: 27 Heroic PL / 8 Iconic PL / 23 Epic PL

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    The new QP will be brilliant on a mob with a bajillion HPs but can still be QPed... fail again and again.. again and again... until you get it. Fairly unlikely scenario, of course.

    They should just bring back Epic Ward imo. Have no one insta kill. I preferred combat in that era of the game anyway.
    But what will your new DC be? The starting point, not the +4 stacking after several tries.

    See it is hard to argue that you are getting the short end of the stick if your DC is now in line with a MAX DC Caster build. Show that it will be like a level 15 character running a Epic Quest then maybe I will understand why you feel this is bad. What I see is that this change will bring you into the mid to high 50s, which without level 28 gear is where a large population of DC caster types currently sit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    But what will your new DC be? The starting point, not the +4 stacking after several tries.

    See it is hard to argue that you are getting the short end of the stick if your DC is now in line with a MAX DC Caster build. Show that it will be like a level 15 character running a Epic Quest then maybe I will understand why you feel this is bad. What I see is that this change will bring you into the mid to high 50s, which without level 28 gear is where a large population of DC caster types currently sit.


    I believe someone said live is ~80 max.
    Monk Quivering Palm:
    18 base (does anyone start with this?)
    7 levels (does anyone put all 7 here?)
    4 class enh
    1 racial enh
    11 item
    3 insight
    1 exceptional
    5 tome
    4 Ocean IV
    6 epic destiny
    2 ship
    2 Yugo (more of a problem with -4 Reflex than the -50% Fortification on the Int pots)
    ____
    64 (+27 modifier)

    10 base
    10 half monk levels
    27 Wis
    ???
    ____
    47

    What's still added to this?
    The old value also gained
    10 Shatter (could be higher, but I'm not sure how high these go, and what's reasonable to expect)
    6 Combat Mastery
    6 Legendary Tactics
    2 Tactician
    3 Grand Master of Flowers inates
    3 fighter PL
    ____
    77 (racial choice could bump this up a little, as could splashing 2 fighter)

    mind you, Shattering can go up to 15 (although I've only seen a +11) So currently it could've went to 82 with that loadout. even higher if splashed fighter due to Tactics (lose +1dc from the missing 2 monk levels, and tactics can net you +3. for a netgain of +2) so 84 or so max. This 'nerf' is merely removing the sundering, so going from 84(82 for monk) to 69(67) Which is still in range of spell DC maxes, higher then assassinate max. And ontop of that, they got a BUFF that is a STACKING +4 whenever it fails to kill something, dev didnt say how much it stacked, but did say it could stack with itself, so multiple times. So a fully decked out QP monk can still QP any and everything they currently can, it just might take 1-2 more tries.

  13. #13
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    Really comes down to what still boosts it after the change. Before the change on my wis 18m/2f I could get the dc into the low-mid 70's depending on destiny but a lot of that is coming from sunder/tactics increases +10 sunder item, +5 exceptional combat mastery, +6 legendary tactics, +2 tactician, +3 fighter tactics, 2 fighter past lives, +3 gmof bonus. If it no longer benefits from sunder increases I potentially lose 31 dc on QP.

    Before:
    10 base
    9 1/2 monk level
    20-24 wis mod depending on buffs/stance.
    10 sunder item
    5 exceptional combat mastery
    6 legendary tactics
    2 tactician
    3 fighter tactics
    2 fighter past lives
    3 gmof
    =
    70-74 depending on buffs/stance

    After
    10 base
    9 1/2 monk level
    20-24 wis mod
    =
    39-43

    Both get the potential -3 to -15 to fort saves from imp sunder to help (99% of the time it's only -3)

    Unless I'm just going overboard on the doooooom factor, dc that low will not work on much in epic level content.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Ok so for currently on live there is potential of having a 77 to low 80s.

    If everything on the bottom section the +30 to DC is removed this will bring QP down to 47 to low 50s DC, so less than a DC caster. It has a 6 second cooldown and costs 30 Ki - Still works on all Monk weapons (at least they have not mentioned they are taking this back away)

    So this would put QP DC less than a dedicated casters Instant Death Spell DC but still higher than a non-dedicated DC caster's

    A person still has the Improved Sunder (-3 Debuff to Fortification) and Negative level weapons to help, As well at the stacking +4, so in 8 seconds they could have +11 to their DC (Two Stacks of QP failed and +3 if they apply Improved Sunder first.

    I still think this is a good change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorlandu View Post
    Really comes down to what still boosts it after the change. Before the change on my wis 18m/2f I could get the dc into the low-mid 70's depending on destiny but a lot of that is coming from sunder/tactics increases +10 sunder item, +5 exceptional combat mastery, +6 legendary tactics, +2 tactician, +3 fighter tactics, 2 fighter past lives, +3 gmof bonus. If it no longer benefits from sunder increases I potentially lose 31 dc on QP.

    Before:
    10 base
    9 1/2 monk level
    20-24 wis mod depending on buffs/stance.
    10 sunder item
    5 exceptional combat mastery
    6 legendary tactics
    2 tactician
    3 fighter tactics
    2 fighter past lives
    3 gmof
    =
    70-74 depending on buffs/stance

    After
    10 base
    9 1/2 monk level
    20-24 wis mod
    =
    39-43

    Both get the potential -3 to -15 to fort saves from imp sunder to help (99% of the time it's only -3)

    Unless I'm just going overboard on the doooooom factor, dc that low will not work on much in epic level content.

    Tactic bonuses are not there due to receiving sundering bonuses. QP is still a tactical feat, so it should sitll recieve all bonuses from items/enhancements that increase those. Granted, I dont know for sure, but all they mention was removing sundering. And the QP got the bonuses from other stuff before they were able to benefit from sundering, so I doubt they'd ninja remove those while they were at it. so, max of -15. not 30. Currently downloading the updated Llama, not sure how long it'd take so I can check out this as well as other things. But all the doom seems unwarrented when they only mentioned removing sundering.

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorlandu View Post
    Both get the potential -3 to -15 to fort saves from imp sunder to help (99% of the time it's only -3)

    Unless I'm just going overboard on the doooooom factor, dc that low will not work on much in epic level content.
    As one that runs a DC caster I can tell you that 39 to 43 DC is workable (not optimal, but workable) in the Epic Hard and lower content if you choose your targets wisely. Many first life casters prior to gear and EDs are looking at that range for "off" schools. With coming into the 50s when they get to the Higher Epic Levels 27+

    If this change goes as is to live, monks will need to look towards debuffs to help improve their chances, this may mean making gear and feat decisions as having Improved Sunder is still a bonus for a monk.

    This change will make this less useful then say when it was 80DC, but that is nearly 10+ DC higher than what most casters will ever achieve with a single school (and a lot of dedicated feats and enhancements)

    I still think this will be good to have it moved to being Tactical vs. Bread-n-Butter

  17. #17
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    Tactic bonuses are not there due to receiving sundering bonuses. QP is still a tactical feat, so it should sitll recieve all bonuses from items/enhancements that increase those. Granted, I dont know for sure, but all they mention was removing sundering. And the QP got the bonuses from other stuff before they were able to benefit from sundering, so I doubt they'd ninja remove those while they were at it. so, max of -15. not 30. Currently downloading the updated Llama, not sure how long it'd take so I can check out this as well as other things. But all the doom seems unwarrented when they only mentioned removing sundering.
    I look forward to hearing the actual numbers. Thank you.

  18. #18
    Community Member Rhysem's Avatar
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    Well on the plus side I only need a +10 stunning dun'robar ring then, rather than that and a shattering one. And it means in new life builds I don't really have to stive for 15 monk -- 12 is good enough for abundant step and then I can splash the rest and join the multiclassing is broken bandwagon instead.

    I don't think it is a good change, because its yet another reason to skip pure -- especially if it still picks up tactics dc boosters. Let's see monk 20 or monk 18/ftr 2, with ftr, lose 1 dc for monk levels, possibly 1 from a capstone (if you took one), gain 3 from tactics. Net +1 or +2.

  19. #19
    Community Member Rhysem's Avatar
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    From the thread on lammammammmaland:

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    QP is not a tactical feat,
    not on lama, so nothing is added to it. No idea what it is on live. my monk is on a fighter life so.....
    made a test on lama 18 monk 2 fighter.

    fighter enhancement tactics- no
    LD tactics - no
    GMOF tactics - no (really)
    Epic feat tactics- no
    I did not check racial or fighter past lives, but doesn't look promising.
    So it more than a -10 - 12 or so, its way more.
    So yep, its now useless. That GMOF doesn't add to it is just embarrassing on Turbine's part.

    On the plus side I don't need a sunder +10 ring. Nor sunder wraps. Two inventory spaces freed up!
    Last edited by Rhysem; 01-23-2014 at 09:55 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Daitengu's Avatar
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    Wow, nerfing EiN into oblivion wasnt enough. Its quite a bad change.

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