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  1. #101
    Community Member Razahe's Avatar
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    QP was a bit over the top, yes, but basically it was one of the very few things that made you feel like a monk (at least like i think monks should feel like, Kungfu-killstuffwithhandsfast-like). It needed some decent investment (to land it safely in highend EE content) and as mentioned before its not only DC that matters (compared to casters) but the ability and risk to land it. So, some slight downgrading, either dc (~5-10) or just increase the Ki cost and/or CD (50 ki at 15 secs) and its mostly fine. You give up some DPS so its reasonable that you can land the ability you build for when you want to, and not after you missed on enough random mobs you dont care about.

    In the end another reason to not play a monk as a monk but as Monkcher, Monxer, Sosnk, Stank or whatever Kensaisplash you want to grab ^^. Those builds are great and fun (and mostly OP with BF ^^), but, bring the class back to what it should be for, a different playing-experience.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I disagree with you about lowering the saves on EE. There are pms on Khyber now who are in GodMode already and they just added +2 to dcs from the augments now stacking. I would agree with the statement that assasinate should get a little buff and quivering palm should not be nerfed as much as it is going to be.
    I have the highest necro DC possible and I'm in khyber. You're wrong.

    Even my higher than possible necro DC QP monk isn't landing consistently in EE stormhorns. Thats with improved sunder, and debuffing sunder wraps on top of a wisdom that is only a few points off max.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IxidorGR View Post
    99% of monks DON'T start with 18 wisdom, 99% of monks DON'T put all the level up points into wisdom. In doing so your DPS gets crippled.
    Even more so, NO monk gets 6 wisdom from his ED, so the numbers you're assuming above are way off...
    wrong on most counts. one of the best monk on khyber server has +6 wis from gmof and spent the 16 bild pts to get max wis at creation. he also has overwelming crit, improved MA and vopral strikes. he also has 3 past monk lives so also 36 pt bild.
    So that one monk is 99% of monks? *facepalm*

    Max ED wis, water stance, and starting at 18 wisdom costs 16 STR. That is +8 to hit and damage right there. Maxing out enhancement wisdom is a further hit. You will easily be 20 STR lower than a DPS monk. On top of that you're giving up a lot of other ED and enhancement abilities to increased damage.

    You believe having vorpal strikes and overwhelming crit is all there is to damage. You're so very very wrong.

    99% of monks don't max out wisdom because it makes a spectacularly ****** monk compared to one that doesn't.

  4. #104
    2016 DDO Players Council PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Could change QP only to benefit from unnamed "Tactical" bonuses but not named "sundering" bonuses. So abilities like fighter past lives, Legendary Tactics, and Combat Mastery would apply. This would knock 10-12 off the DC, which would put it in the same boat as most other tactical abilities. This would be a lot simpler than a stacking buff, too.

    But it's not like QP adds damage against bosses. Most of the big QP builds I've seen do pathetic boss damage.

    But, of course, I've never begrudged people their ability to steamroll over trash mobs. They're TRASH MOBS. You're SUPPOSED to steamroll them.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifespawn View Post
    Agree with everything except point 1 Dance should work with all regular monk weapons.

    Wraps,bows,kamas,shortswords,staves,shuriken and longswords this would still give good damage to all the classic monk weapons while cutting out the insane ability for centered kensei but still letting them get centered and benefit from the crit multi from earth stance(which should be moved to fire stance)the best of all worlds.
    I agree with everything but Bow's -- dance working with bows is a major reason why anyone who rolls an archer, should be centered. The other big reason is the silly doubleshot debuff timer, making 10k stars significantly better than doubleshot. The other big benefits (improve evasion, better saves, monk stances) are just icing on the cake.

  6. #106
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    I agree with everything but Bow's -- dance working with bows is a major reason why anyone who rolls an archer, should be centered. The other big reason is the silly doubleshot debuff timer, making 10k stars significantly better than doubleshot. The other big benefits (improve evasion, better saves, monk stances) are just icing on the cake.
    Even if 10k stars and Dance of flowers was nerfed . . . monkcher would STILL be the best archer.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    I have the highest necro DC possible and I'm in khyber. You're wrong.

    Even my higher than possible necro DC QP monk isn't landing consistently in EE stormhorns. Thats with improved sunder, and debuffing sunder wraps on top of a wisdom that is only a few points off max.
    Have you run with Scepter? He is owning stuff in the stormhorns or wherever. Here is what a pm should do in my opinion currently. They should instakill whenever possible and not on cool down of course, but they should be every high enchantment specced with decent evocation dps as well. When not instakilling you do mass holds with energy burst and similar dps. Constantly rotate between insta kills and masshold/burst dps. If I were playing a PM I would copy Scepter to a T. I like Sun Elves and with this news of +2 more to DC on the augments that should help as well.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Even if 10k stars and Dance of flowers was nerfed . . . monkcher would STILL be the best archer.
    True... thats why my original suggestion for fixing monkcher's had one last point to it:

    Monkchers could be fixed with 3 changes --
    1. Make Dance of Flowers only work with handwraps (added: and other traditional monk weapons), this would also tone down the damage from the Centered Kensei.
    2. Have Fury Eternal work as it is written (only regain adrenaline on melee vorpals),
    3. Reduce the Doubleshoot debuff timer on Manyshot to 20 sec (so you get doubleshot again right after manyshot is done); but leave the debuff on its existing duration for 10k Stars. This will allow Rangers and Monks to have a similar number of arrows per 2 min cycle (one from doubleshot and one from 10k stars)
    Having Fury Eternal work as it is written would force archers to enter melee to recharge their adrenaline's. Monkchers and AA's will still be (very) powerful, but forcing them to melee from time to time will go a long way to bringing them in line.

    Monks will still be top tier for archery due to other benefits, however; rangers and other classes can now at least compete.
    Last edited by Andoris; 01-24-2014 at 03:37 PM.

  9. #109
    Community Member Razahe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    True... thats why my original suggestion for fixing monkcher's had one last point to it:



    Having Fury Eternal work as it is written would force archers to enter melee to recharge their adrenaline's. Monkchers and AA's will still be (very) powerful, but forcing them to melee from time to time will go a long way to bringing them in line.

    Monks will still be top tier for archery due to other benefits, however; rangers and other classes can now at least compete.

    Problem: If i wanna play a ranged toon i wanna play a ranged toon and not a toon that can be effective from time to time with ranged attacks and has to melee most of the time. Limit Adrenaline to the first arrow and all is fine. (Does adrenaline proc on doublestrikes? if yes, make it proc on doubleshot aswell, might even be a reason to not go 10k stars but doubleshot to have a chance at another adrenaline hit)

  10. #110
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razahe View Post
    Problem: If i wanna play a ranged toon i wanna play a ranged toon and not a toon that can be effective from time to time with ranged attacks and has to melee most of the time. Limit Adrenaline to the first arrow and all is fine. (Does adrenaline proc on doublestrikes? if yes, make it proc on doubleshot aswell, might even be a reason to not go 10k stars but doubleshot to have a chance at another adrenaline hit)
    The issue is we're not sure if Fury Eternal working on ranged is WAI or not. Turbine will not answer that question.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    whos idea was it to put a 6 second cooldown on an ability that can only be used once a WEEK in PnP in the first place?

    Leave the DC alone. Raise thh cooldown to something more reasonable.
    Honestly this is the answer. Monks that put in the effort to hit those DC's should be able to instakill. But 6 seconds on an instakill that requires nothing other than ki is too fast on the cooldown.

    Now you can certainly have discussions about the DC's once that part is balanced but you're right that the CD was a much bigger issue than the DC.
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  12. #112
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    A really heavy handed nerf all around.

    A balanced pass would have been to remove Shatter items from the DC AND increase the CD timer. That's all that needed to be done. Even a CD increase to 15 secs would more then cut in half the kills currently seen on live.
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  13. #113
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    I sincerely hope they trash the change, and instead look at cooldowns/ki cost. I also hope they never consider fail stacking as a viable solution to impossibly low DCs again as well... I want to be able to EARN my way to effect builds that can do what I built them for, not have no choice but flail around until it's finally failed enough to stick.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    whos idea was it to put a 6 second cooldown on an ability that can only be used once a WEEK in PnP in the first place?

    Leave the DC alone. Raise thh cooldown to something more reasonable.
    Once per shrine works, and fits PnP quite accurately.

    Maybe 5 or 10 minute cooldown?

    This ability is supposed to be used RARELY. I have no idea how once a week turned into 6 second cooldown.
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  15. #115
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The only nerf an ESOS needs is Dance of Flowers nerfed back to only work on handwraps.
    Probably should also work with other weapons that are already monkish, like kamas and staves. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

    Edit: for those saying just remove the shatter bonus, my guess is that the other stuff increases the QP DC because it buffs shatter. if you take shatter out, then those things that buff shatter go as well.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    only handwraps, not. Quarsterstaff and kamas need love too, and are not awesome weapons. Dance of Flowers should work only with the original monk weapons.

    If you can stay centered in a not-monk weapon, fine, but these are not monk weapons. At best, shortswords. These are not amazing weapons and are ninja weapons in ddo. But that's it.
    If someone has to burn a feat to make a weapon "centered" (Zen Archery, or 3(!) feats to get Whirling Steel Strike for longsword, which is a lousy weapon too), it makes no sense to exempt those from Dance of Flowers. Bows are overpowered in epic because of wonky Shiradi and FOTW mechanics, not Dance of Flowers. Longswords and shortswords aren't OP in any situation.

    The concern that eSOS is overpowered because you can use it centered from Kensei and get the DoF buff is more a problem with eSOS itself. (On the other hand, I find the kensei tree pretty lacklustre otherwise, so I guess they had to throw them a bone, even if it only pays off in epics)

    And to the main point of the thread, they mainly need to figure out how to make QP a tactical feat by itself, so only the sundering bonus is lost--surely that can't be that hard to code. But I'm all for significantly extending the cooldown too.

  17. #117
    Community Member Henky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
    And to the main point of the thread, they mainly need to figure out how to make QP a tactical feat by itself, so only the sundering bonus is lost--surely that can't be that hard to code. But I'm all for significantly extending the cooldown too.
    Or just change the formula: 10 + monk level + wis mod. Not OP, not useless. And/Or make GMoF increase monk levels for another +5. A wisdom monk with 66 (18 base + 7 levels + 5 tome + 11 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 4 enhancement + 2 capstone + 6 destiny + 4 water stance + 2 ship + 2 yugo + 1 human) will have 10+20/25+28 = 58/63 DC. You can add completionist, litany, store pots and some twists to get more wisdom. IMHO, not op and not useless.

    Or just change the feat completely, just an idea:

    The monk delivers a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through the target with an open hand strike. The attack costs ALL THE KI GATHERED, and if it hits the victim add your KI to te base damage of your fist, ONLY UNARMED.

    Cooldown: 1 minute or 2

    If the damage is too much, reduce it to half of the ki used.

    Maybe its too hard to code, but just an idea.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    Once per shrine works, and fits PnP quite accurately.

    Maybe 5 or 10 minute cooldown?

    This ability is supposed to be used RARELY. I have no idea how once a week turned into 6 second cooldown.
    You mean like a sorc that can spam 9th level spells until carpal tunnel ensues? Once a day abilities do not work in mmos
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  19. #119
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    And I love how the NERF-THAT-NOW-CAUSE-I-DONT-LIKE-IT crowd resorts to using the stars aligned full ****** DC of a toon that can only do one thing well. If you want to sacrifice overall dps (among other things) to kill trash, well, so be it. Those same toons are tickling rednamed mobs (you know, the ones that count?). Trash is trash, if it makes someone feel better to lead kill counts by slaughtering cannon fodder, so be it.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Have you run with Scepter? He is owning stuff in the stormhorns or wherever. Here is what a pm should do in my opinion currently. They should instakill whenever possible and not on cool down of course, but they should be every high enchantment specced with decent evocation dps as well. When not instakilling you do mass holds with energy burst and similar dps. Constantly rotate between insta kills and masshold/burst dps. If I were playing a PM I would copy Scepter to a T. I like Sun Elves and with this news of +2 more to DC on the augments that should help as well.
    You're significantly overestimating his necro kills. Max necro DC is 70 which is lower than my quivering palm, and my quivering palm is bloody useless in a lot of EE Stormhorns. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/405017 My stunning fist at 80 which also benefits from double strike still isn't terribly reliable on a lot of mobs... I'd estimate those bloody orcs in breaking the ranks to be running around with a high 60 fort save, maybe even low 70s based on my stunning fist land rate. A 70 necro DC isn't doing ****. With this nerf my QP DC will be something like 50 and won't even land well n EN.

    BTW, if he is somehow magically landing instakills with his 70 (or less) necro DC, then he would be better off in Shadow Dancer than Draconic. His 78 int would give him a 72 DC with Consume.

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