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  1. #401
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    This was a level headed response and not to be short with you, but what about me that loves and primarily only solo’s. Would you have a problem if Turbine sold me the rights to use ED’s in heroics? If it makes Turbine money and it makes my fun more enjoyable, what would be the problem with it?

    It may seem like a jerk question, but it is an honest one. If Turbine will allow people to circumvent one thing that the Devs had envisioned, what does it matter if I get ED’s?
    I take this question a bit oddly, as it forces me to ask "Why would I be upset by this" I mean, as a player, it does not do anything to me, it neither hurts my ability to enjoy the game nor does it cost me any money. So I personally don't see any reason to get upset if Turbine put such a feature in the store.

    See Vint, Turbine did put in P2W in this game, real, honest, textbook style P2W stuff, but, this DSD change is not it, even this pay to use an ED ability you put up would not be it in fact, thanks to Chai chasing windmills all over the forums with his P2W mantra, on every little thing, I bet you don't even know what Turbine did that was in fact P2W.

  2. #402
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those things you just named are not the what I am talking about
    I am amused that you lack the ability to see that a Bell of Opening is to a Knock Wand, what a Secret Door Diving Rod is to a Scroll of Detect Secret Doors.

  3. #403
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I am amused that you lack the ability to see that a Bell of Opening is to a Knock Wand, what a Secret Door Diving Rod is to a Scroll of Detect Secret Doors.
    I have no problem seeing that whatsoever, but those aren't the issue. Scroll back up, read what I told you my stance is ~6-7 times now, then address it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #404
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I take this question a bit oddly, as it forces me to ask "Why would I be upset by this" I mean, as a player, it does not do anything to me, it neither hurts my ability to enjoy the game nor does it cost me any money. So I personally don't see any reason to get upset if Turbine put such a feature in the store.

    See Vint, Turbine did put in P2W in this game, real, honest, textbook style P2W stuff, but, this DSD change is not it, even this pay to use an ED ability you put up would not be it in fact, thanks to Chai chasing windmills all over the forums with his P2W mantra, on every little thing, I bet you don't even know what Turbine did that was in fact P2W.
    So you have been denying it even though you knew they did it the entire time. Got it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #405
    Community Member Annex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If DSD out of hand, that was the era it needed to be handled in, if we are to believe the "game balance" excuse.
    I used to develop and modify small information systems. My customers maintained a hodgepodge of custom software tools, and I worked to maintain and modify those tools over many years. While working on a given system and speaking with data entry people, I would make a list of problems and bugs. Every so often I would go over this list with the responsible manager, explain the bugs and the costs involved fixing them. With some systems, this back and forth went on for many years. The manager would evaluate the costs, decide what bugs really needed fixing, and cut me lose. Very often a bug would stay on the list for years and years because it was too expensive or too dangerous to fix. Occasionally, I would dig into a program to build or fix one thing, only discover an easy fix for one of those old bugs. I would call the responsible manager, explain the situation, and almost always get a go ahead to kill the bug.

    I suspect the Detect Secret Doors issue was handled inside Turbine a lot like one of those old bugs I used to track. It was probably considered too expensive or too dangerous to fix. Then, one day, a developer working on something else stumbled upon the relevant code, saw the quick fix, and was given permission to tackle the problem. Or, a developer hated the old bug so much he took it upon himself to kill it. (On rare occasions I did that, too.)

    I freely admit a Turbine manager may have decided to fix Detect Secret Doors to generate some revenue. From what I have read, it seems more likely the initiative was taken by a developer. If I were in his shoes, I would have done the same thing for the same reason stated--to make better dungeons. I would consider the store bypass item an annoyance available to people who want to ruin the dungeon crawl experience and go strait to the cheese. Whatever.

    While I agree with you in general regarding power creep, on this particular issue I think other forces were at play, and the result makes the game better, not worse.

  6. #406
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    My stance has always been that support for Turbine changing their core game in order to sell the un-nerfed version back to us opens the door to them ramping up the degree in which they do this.
    I have to say that the probable consensus of your opponents is that your stance, as worded here, is lunacy.

    [edit] Because I actually appreciate your posts and sometimes what you are trying to argue I'm going to try to help out a little. Here is what you have to work with at the moment.

    1. The devs made changes to the mechanics of how secret doors are detected. These changes nerfed in game items so that they could not automatically detect all secret doors.

    2. You can buy an item in the store that will detect all secret doors

    These are just two facts. You need to show a correlation between the two that backs up your theory. I'll grant that you might not think this is necessary and that you just saying a thing is true makes it so but I assure you that is not in reality the case.

    In order to back up your theory you would want to be able to point out something like the following.

    1. After the secret door changes the store bought item went up in price

    2. Secret doors have been added to content where they were not previously located

    3. The DCs of many secret doors have been raised since the introduction of the new mechanic even if they were already beyond what the newly nerfed DSD clickys could reach so that characters that actually spent points in their detection still have difficulty finding them.

    Using something like "I used to be able to solo the binder home and offering of blood with DSD clickys but because Turbine wants to get paid I have to buy an item from the store now", just won't cut it. We all know you spend a good deal of your time hunting for p2w in everything that Turbine does to the game so the chance that you will see a conspiracy where there isn't one is statistically higher than you may think.
    Last edited by Orratti; 01-26-2014 at 04:16 AM.

  7. #407
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I take this question a bit oddly, as it forces me to ask "Why would I be upset by this" I mean, as a player, it does not do anything to me, it neither hurts my ability to enjoy the game nor does it cost me any money. So I personally don't see any reason to get upset if Turbine put such a feature in the store.

    See Vint, Turbine did put in P2W in this game, real, honest, textbook style P2W stuff, but, this DSD change is not it, even this pay to use an ED ability you put up would not be it in fact, thanks to Chai chasing windmills all over the forums with his P2W mantra, on every little thing, I bet you don't even know what Turbine did that was in fact P2W.
    Please exscyse any typos as I am on the phone today, but I think Gremmyln covered many of the items that are store only a few pages back.

    I also would thank you for your opinion. Many people have avoided the question and I am happy to see that you are not hypocritical of what P2W is.

    With that I will say that the point of DSD is nearly irrelevant anymore. The same crowd that loves to bash Chai will continue as they claim that there is no P2w in the game and that the game needs to be completely balanced. These are the very same people that have Quartermaster on speed dial wanting to buy every advantage they can.

    I can live with this and I know Turbine is in the business of making money, but it is getting very old that some of the people around here still refuse to believe that P2W is relevant. This also means the more people buy into the schemes the more schemes Turbine will add.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  8. #408
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So you have been denying it even though you knew they did it the entire time. Got it.
    No Chai.. I have never claimed there is no P2W in DDO, I have simply been denying the lunacy you claim is P2W is "it"

    There is a difference you know.

  9. #409
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Please exscyse any typos as I am on the phone today, but I think Gremmyln covered many of the items that are store only a few pages back.

    I also would thank you for your opinion. Many people have avoided the question and I am happy to see that you are not hypocritical of what P2W is.

    With that I will say that the point of DSD is nearly irrelevant anymore. The same crowd that loves to bash Chai will continue as they claim that there is no P2w in the game and that the game needs to be completely balanced. These are the very same people that have Quartermaster on speed dial wanting to buy every advantage they can.

    I can live with this and I know Turbine is in the business of making money, but it is getting very old that some of the people around here still refuse to believe that P2W is relevant. This also means the more people buy into the schemes the more schemes Turbine will add.
    Vint, would you like an honest example of Pay to Win in DDO?

  10. #410
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Vint, would you like an honest example of Pay to Win in DDO?
    I'm all ears. I would love to hear it.
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  11. #411
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I'm all ears. I would love to hear it.
    Alright:

    Adventure Packs.

    The entire game was re-designed around selling them, and it was openly admitted as such, it was part of the whole plan to divide up the game and then have the players buy the game back in parts. Adventure Packs have the best gear/items/weapons, as well as the best EXP and stories.

    In fact, at first the only way to get a single epic token or item was via an Adventure pack. There was no bones about it, this was done to get the players to buy this. If you did not own adventure packs, you would have no raid gear, no end game content to run, no Epic items, and no means to TR.

    At least not until MotuD came out, but, that is it's own little monster, with it's own P2W.

    But, as irony would have it, Adventure packs have been a part of the game since the game went F2P, and I will add, P2W or not, people look forward to new packs coming out so they can buy and beat them, get the loot from them, and just keep playing the game.

    Rather amusing that the real P2W is what we all want to buy, but then again, that is the nature of P2W, you want to buy it, because it gives you the power you desperately want, and without it, you know you just won't be as good. That is the succulent attraction of what P2W is all about.

    Justification for Adventure packs exists tho as some people do not view them as P2W because you can farm the favor to buy them, but, using that logic anything in the store can be obtained with favor farmed TP's and thus nothing is P2W.

    But, if we go by the venture that we need to buy something from the store to continue our progression in the game, then Adventure Packs are Text Book examples of what P2W really is.

    There you have it. Your P2W laid out for you.

    So everyone can stop looking for the boogyman under the bed now.

  12. #412
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Alright:

    Adventure Packs.

    The entire game was re-designed around selling them, and it was openly admitted as such, it was part of the whole plan to divide up the game and then have the players buy the game back in parts. Adventure Packs have the best gear/items/weapons, as well as the best EXP and stories.

    In fact, at first the only way to get a single epic token or item was via an Adventure pack. There was no bones about it, this was done to get the players to buy this. If you did not own adventure packs, you would have no raid gear, no end game content to run, no Epic items, and no means to TR.

    At least not until MotuD came out, but, that is it's own little monster, with it's own P2W.

    But, as irony would have it, Adventure packs have been a part of the game since the game went F2P, and I will add, P2W or not, people look forward to new packs coming out so they can buy and beat them, get the loot from them, and just keep playing the game.

    Rather amusing that the real P2W is what we all want to buy, but then again, that is the nature of P2W, you want to buy it, because it gives you the power you desperately want, and without it, you know you just won't be as good. That is the succulent attraction of what P2W is all about.

    Justification for Adventure packs exists tho as some people do not view them as P2W because you can farm the favor to buy them, but, using that logic anything in the store can be obtained with favor farmed TP's and thus nothing is P2W.

    But, if we go by the venture that we need to buy something from the store to continue our progression in the game, then Adventure Packs are Text Book examples of what P2W really is.

    There you have it. Your P2W laid out for you.

    So everyone can stop looking for the boogyman under the bed now.


    I agree with this, but remember I am not fully against P2W. The part the troubles me the most is that people pretend it is not real. As long as people are spending and Turbine is making money I am happy, but I am still not going to spend until they cater to me and not just the people that buy into the schemes.
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  13. #413
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I agree with this, but remember I am not fully against P2W. The part the troubles me the most is that people pretend it is not real. As long as people are spending and Turbine is making money I am happy, but I am still not going to spend until they cater to me and not just the people that buy into the schemes.
    Same here.

    But as I said to Chai, I never said P2W does not exist in DDO, only that the conspiracy theories he was spouting are not it.

  14. #414
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Same here.

    But as I said to Chai, I never said P2W does not exist in DDO, only that the conspiracy theories he was spouting are not it.
    If you are justifying it as being p2w because it has the best gear/items/weapons in it, then anything else you can pay for to either acquire those same best gear/items/weapons, is also p2w according to this logic. This includes timer bypass, and A$AH. The vast majority of gear/items/weapons can be bought of the A$AH without even buying an adventure pack or playing in it. How can you deny the A$AH is p2w when you claim adventure packs are? You see after buying an adventure pack I have to play in it to earn that gear, or I could simply mosey on over to what amounts to a RL money AH and buy it there. Similar semantics exist with timer bypass. I could run this raid once per 3 days for 60 days, or I could run it 20 times in a 2 day marathon. I have my gear/item/weapon in 1/30th the time it took someone else to get it.

    Is the p2w version of DSD in the store not the best gear/item/weapon for the job now that they nerfed the free version? Even by your own definition, because the store version contains the best gear/item/weapon, then the DSD item in the store is p2w. The best scroll for healing is in the store. The best potions for healing are in the store. The best mana potions are in the store. Those fall under best gear/item/weapon.

    The only reason you continue to claim conspiracy theories, is due to having no answer for the questions asked, without being able to admit this game is far more p2w than it actually is. Good luck lawyering your way past that one btw, a good portion of the store items bought fall into your definition.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-26-2014 at 09:07 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #415
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If you are justifying it as being p2w because it has the best gear/items/weapons in it, then anything else you can pay for to either acquire those same best gear/items/weapons, is also p2w according to this logic. This includes timer bypass, and A$AH. The vast majority of gear/items/weapons can be bought of the A$AH without even buying an adventure pack or playing in it. How can you deny the A$AH is p2w when you claim adventure packs are? You see after buying an adventure pack I have to play in it to earn that gear, or I could simply mosey on over to what amounts to a RL money AH and buy it there. Similar semantics exist with timer bypass. I could run this raid once per 3 days for 60 days, or I could run it 20 times in a 2 day marathon. I have my gear/item/weapon in 1/30th the time it took someone else to get it.

    Is the p2w version of DSD in the store not the best gear/item/weapon for the job now that they nerfed the free version? Even by your own definition, because the store version contains the best gear/item/weapon, then the DSD item in the store is p2w. The best scroll for healing is in the store. The best potions for healing are in the store. The best mana potions are in the store. Those fall under best gear/item/weapon.

    The only reason you continue to claim conspiracy theories, is due to having no answer for the questions asked, without being able to admit this game is far more p2w than it actually is. Good luck lawyering your way past that one btw, a good portion of the store items bought fall into your definition.
    I have no trouble agreeing that the entire list is p2w. No problem agreeing that now after the change to secret doors that store bought item is also such. It's the suggestion that the entire reason they put the changes in place was just to sell a single item from the store that comes off as ludicrous. That they are spending their resources and time making this change while wringing their hands and cackling "We've really got them this time, they'll be buying those DSD items by the dozen" just seems way too pitiful to be a scheme from the Turbine I know.
    Last edited by Orratti; 01-26-2014 at 12:47 PM.

  16. #416
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    It's the suggestion that the entire reason they put the changes in place was just to sell a single item from the store that comes off as ludicrous. That they are spending their resources and time making this change while wringing their hands and cackling "We've really got them this time, they'll be buying those DSD items by the dozen" just seems way too pitiful to be a scheme from the Turbine I know.
    Yah that kinda sums it up nicely.

  17. #417
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I still cant believe people are buying a lot of DSD items from the store. most stuff behind those secret doors are no big deal to skip whether it be xp or loot. after the first few levels when I cant search those secret doors, I don't bother with them and the only thing I buy are rogue hires more for the trap xp than anything else. since the change, I consider secret door xp to be nothing more than gravy. it does suck after all these years to be able to use clickies in game to find them and than one day someone says he changed it because it had always bothered him.

    if I was going to argue P2W in the store, DSD items is at the bottom of the list. rogue hires are more P2W than these items and I consider it a minor thing not worth the argument since none of the doors ive come across are preventing quest completion.

  18. #418
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If you are justifying it as being p2w because it has the best gear/items/weapons in it, then anything else you can pay for to either acquire those same best gear/items/weapons, is also p2w according to this logic.
    Nope.

  19. #419
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Alright:

    Adventure Packs.

    The entire game was re-designed around selling them, and it was openly admitted as such, it was part of the whole plan to divide up the game and then have the players buy the game back in parts. Adventure Packs have the best gear/items/weapons, as well as the best EXP and stories.
    Oh, you most certainly did define p2w as paying to attain the best gear/items/weapons. And best XP. Now the store sells straight XP.

    And now part of the whole plan is to divide up each grind so they are not synergistic with the other grinds in order to monetize those that completed one but have not completed the other. Just like they redesigned their game in the past to sell adventure packs, now too do they redesign the game to add more time syncs, in hopes people will pay their way past them.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-26-2014 at 02:04 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #420
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I still cant believe people are buying a lot of DSD items from the store. most stuff behind those secret doors are no big deal to skip whether it be xp or loot. after the first few levels when I cant search those secret doors, I don't bother with them and the only thing I buy are rogue hires more for the trap xp than anything else. since the change, I consider secret door xp to be nothing more than gravy. it does suck after all these years to be able to use clickies in game to find them and than one day someone says he changed it because it had always bothered him.

    if I was going to argue P2W in the store, DSD items is at the bottom of the list. rogue hires are more P2W than these items and I consider it a minor thing not worth the argument since none of the doors ive come across are preventing quest completion.
    I agree, but the issue here is not DSD. The issue here is that Turbine has now gained support for altering their game at the core level to sell the un-nerfed version back to us. Selling character power didn't start off as hilarious as it is right now either. They put small amounts in and when people supported it they added more and more every fiscal quarter or two. The same will happen with this. Starts off small and seemingly trivial, but it doesn't end up that way.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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