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  1. #41
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Ironic that your post was the last on the page leading to the next page in the thread.

    Well done.
    Really?
    How can you browse forums without urge to hurt your self with that puny, pathetic 20 posts per page?

    That's more loading than reading!

  2. #42
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    In rift clerics can be also tanks and DPSers, not only hjeal me.
    And in WOW every healer class has 2 other specs. Druids can be DPS, tank or heal. Paladin can be DPS, tank or heal. Priests can be DPS, heal, or survivability.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #43
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Excessively clinging to a divine is something stupid but playing a divine and not healing your party members is ten thousand times more stupid than that.

    If you joined a party you should strive to be as helpful as possible, if you can heal it's only logical you should heal people and sometimes sacrifice some DPS for that.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And in WOW every healer class has 2 other specs. Druids can be DPS, tank or heal. Paladin can be DPS, tank or heal. Priests can be DPS, heal, or survivability.
    And in these other games, do healers throw a heal when needed?

  5. #45
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And in WOW every healer class has 2 other specs. Druids can be DPS, tank or heal. Paladin can be DPS, tank or heal. Priests can be DPS, heal, or survivability.
    And what are costs of respeccing?

    In rift it takes 1 second to turn from heal to DPS, and it costs nothing.

  6. #46
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And in these other games, do healers throw a heal when needed?
    Yes.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    And what are costs of respeccing?

    In rift it takes 1 second to turn from heal to DPS, and it costs nothing.
    The push of a button. You can have 2 specs in place, and play one at a time. Whats popular is to have a damage spec for leveling, and use one of the others when raiding with guild.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yes.
    And that's all I'm asking for. Newsflash divines, of the instakillers in the game, you are the weakest. Of the melee toons in the game, you are one of the weakest. Of the dps spell casters in the game, you are the weakest. Of the people able to heal others, you are the strongest. Feel free to use you weaksause all you want, but don't also forget that you do something really really well, and unless you utilize it, you're just weak. I would never try to join a group and play badly. I would just never think of doing it. I don't know why divines think it's okay for them to do so.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The reality is that a divine that doesn't heal is not bringing as much to the party as other toons.
    The reality is that that is one of those blanket statements about a large group that's pretty much automatically false, even if it were true for some specific individuals in some specific circumstances.

    Some individuals bring more to the party than anyone else. Some suck. It depends on not just the build, but also player skills, specific content, who the rest of the party is, etc.. Declaring others, of whatever play-style, to automatically be contributing less, without any actual data on their contribution...is just meaningless words.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    They are CHOOSING to play their toon badly. And they just expect everyone else to accept it. Nope. Sorry. Not going to happen.
    I don't expect to convince anyone with such ideas on whether or not it's playing badly. People hate to give up their prejudices. But that's a secondary point.

    The primary point is: you think you get to tell other people how they get to use their entertainment time and money. Nope. Sorry. Not going to happen.

    If someone is CHOOSING to play a play-style you don't like, you have neither the right nor the option to not accept it. You can go add every divine to your personal blacklist, if you like. But that's about it.

  10. #50
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan220 View Post
    I took Cleric at level one so my icon is cleric.
    Nope. Your icon iscleric because most of your levels are in cleric. At a draw you get the icon of the class which name comest 1st in the Alphabet, except for the latter added classes like Artif or Monk, which a tie with will be decided on time of imlementation.

    But never is the order important only number of levels.
    Erzskalde (Warchanter) / Erzmarschall (melee FvS) / Erzsoldat (waiting for TR-time) / Erzschmied (ranged Artificer)

    AOK - From Argonnessen

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    The reality is that that is one of those blanket statements about a large group that's pretty much automatically false, even if it were true for some specific individuals in some specific circumstances.

    Some individuals bring more to the party than anyone else. Some suck. It depends on not just the build, but also player skills, specific content, who the rest of the party is, etc.. Declaring others, of whatever play-style, to automatically be contributing less, without any actual data on their contribution...is just meaningless words.



    I don't expect to convince anyone with such ideas on whether or not it's playing badly. People hate to give up their prejudices. But that's a secondary point.

    The primary point is: you think you get to tell other people how they get to use their entertainment time and money. Nope. Sorry. Not going to happen.

    If someone is CHOOSING to play a play-style you don't like, you have neither the right nor the option to not accept it. You can go add every divine to your personal blacklist, if you like. But that's about it.
    It isn't an opinion. That's like saying 2+2=4 is an opinion. I do have a right to screen my LFMs. I don't care how divines play their toons. They are free to go solo those EEs and play however they like... except of course they are unable to. They need to join a group and pike. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it's because divines are not capable of soloing EEs.

    EDIT: And by the way, feel free to show me a melee dps breakdown where divines come anywhere close to non-divines. And when you're done, feel free to show be a DC breakdown where they can get them into any meaningful range. (Except for Druid of course. As they are currently overpowered) Math is a thing. DDO is based on math. We don't have to make assumptions about DPS and DCs silly. We have all the information right in front of us.
    Last edited by jalont; 01-16-2014 at 09:25 AM.

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And that's all I'm asking for. Newsflash divines, of the instakillers in the game, you are the weakest. Of the melee toons in the game, you are one of the weakest. Of the dps spell casters in the game, you are the weakest. Of the people able to heal others, you are the strongest. Feel free to use you weaksause all you want, but don't also forget that you do something really really well, and unless you utilize it, you're just weak. I would never try to join a group and play badly. I would just never think of doing it. I don't know why divines think it's okay for them to do so.
    Ive always said a divine that refuses to heal should have been a sorc. It does what they want to do better than the class they are playing, with no obligation to heal others.

    Also, once a divine gets this reputation of refusing to heal, its actually easier to find a sorc for the group, because while theres few divines PUGing, there are tons of sorcs PUGing. If I needed more DPS in the party I would just take another sorc, who I have to wait less time for, and will get more damage output out of anyhow.

    I see this mentality alot more on the forums than I do in game though. Its rare in game when a divine refuses to heal. I see threads on it weekly on the forums however.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
    Community Member Lallajulia's Avatar
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    right now im leveling one more clr life. i prefer ppl heal themselves, bc my sp is for evoker things and slay living, greater command etc. i carry big bunch or various scrolls and wands and only this is for heals, even myself i still chug csw pots instead sp healself.
    but, if happens my pug have newbie, who is bad at keep self alive, thats out of question that im gonna help him run tru quest.
    but the fact is, there is no reason demand heals not matter what class player play in heroic levels. maybe except barbs about gianthold time. but even then, there is not one and not two possiblities to keep self up.
    plus, i never played toon who is not self sufficient, not matter what class. i dont understand why anyone would want play such a mess and be weight on others.
    again, except newbies. i can nanny them, if they listen, np with that.
    quaerite primum regnum dei.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I would never try to join a group and play badly. I would just never think of doing it. I don't know why divines think it's okay for them to do so.
    This is a game people play for entertainment. Your questionable claims about the effectiveness of divines doesn't matter. People play for fun. If everyone followed your rules, the game would have long since died, because no brand-new player already has top gear, knowledge, play-skills, etc., and so, by your logic, should never join a group at all.

  15. #55
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    All of my toons have some sort of self healing. The worst healing one I have, is my pure monk thrower and I will throw a cocoon on someone if needed.

    I have absolutely no issue throwing out heals with any of my toons. Even in BYOH groups.

    Plenty of times, I have found myself in a healer / rezzer roll during raids and EE content with my UMD scrolling toons.

    It cracks me up when I run into a player playing a "healing" class toon that refuses to heal anyone. lol

    I recently ran across a pure, capped druid that didn't help with heals in any capacity. As a matter of fact, he popped one of the epic favored soul hireling to be his healer. At first I thought it was a new player, but on further review, the toon had at least 3 past lives.

    Just because I don't expect to receive heals from other players In a group, does not mean that I won't throw out heals to them if it's needed in order to get a the completion.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive always said a divine that refuses to heal should have been a sorc. It does what they want to do better than the class they are playing, with no obligation to heal others.
    Why does a Sorc have any less "obligation" to heal than a FvS? Sorc can burn up spell slots on Repair spells for all their Warforged and Bladeforged buddies just as easily as a FvS can on Cure spells.

    The fact is, NO CLASS has any such obligation. And good players help their teammates REGARDLESS OF CLASS.

  17. #57
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    These threads pop up so often it's funny. I mean that seriously and not sarcastically. I actually enjoy reading them. Here's me playing the devil's advocate.

    As an intro I try and build all of my toons to be self heal. I have 12 or 13 of them and I strive for SF pots, UMD for heal scrolls and even just built a barb with 4 lvls of FVS for Ameliorating Strike and pumped my heal. (Will also be slotting devotion). Also will twist in cocoon and have Empower Healing from the FVS levels. I do remember my first healer, playing as a party healer, and how nervous I was to keep players alive.

    Of course sometimes forcing self heal into a toon causes them to be less effective than their build was made for. Made for you say? Well this is a DnD based game which used to be set up so each player has a role they play. Fighters would tank, healers would heal, mages would cast fireballs, etc. Of course this doesn't translate well to a video game, but I think this is where the expectation comes from. Also in some other MMORPGs (older ones) a healer based character can only be a healer. In DDO you can do what you want which is nice.

    The issue I see though is all these nice healing spells and abilities seem to go to waste. Why roll up a cleric really at all? Flavor? I mean you say you're a cleric and you have a cleric icon (Maybe 18/2), but you don't do anything with your cleric spells and abilities apart from self heal. Why? Well you state that everyone should be BYOH and you are trying to max dps/kill mobs to get the quest done faster/easier. Any time you spend on them is time away from the mobs.

    OK. Fair enough. Then drop cleric levels. That is not a maxed toon you have built. You are not doing the most dps or killing the most mobs. I suggest you roll up a Necro focused Sun Elf PM, an Int based Assassin (UMD-ing Heal scrolls), A Shiradi Sorc, Monkcher or a Juggy. That's it. In fact on the character creation screen there should only be those 5 options. Maybe one or two more. Your claim is that the quest will go slower/not as well if you have to stop and heal others. I would argue the quest will also go slower if you are not a maxed out toon.

    We are essentially making the same argument. We are both trying for faster completions. However your path (with cleric or fvs levels) is even slower than mine (Maxed toon) and I can also self heal so you shouldn't do that either. Else you're a hypocrite. So why is anyone splashing cleric or fvs anyways. It's a waste of everyone's time.

    So devil's advocate off/

    I get it. Everyone likes to play the way they want to. No one wants to stand back and be a healbot. (Or few do). However if you're building a fvs or cleric based character you're not doing the max damage anyways so why not heal the party to the best of your ability while swinging away? Truthfully by healing those people (who maybe focused 80% on damage output and very little on BYOH) you are actually adding to dps. Two toons out dps a single toon. (For the most part excluding burst Fursyshot and the like). If that other guy dies then that is less dps then you could do all on your own self healing.

    Just food for thought. I'll duck now as people fire rounds down range at me for even suggesting such a theory and also take the time to brag about how awesome tehir dps is.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    This is a game people play for entertainment. Your questionable claims about the effectiveness of divines doesn't matter. People play for fun. If everyone followed your rules, the game would have long since died, because no brand-new player already has top gear, knowledge, play-skills, etc., and so, by your logic, should never join a group at all.
    This is completely wrong. Someone without gear, knowledge or play-skills can certainly still play to the best of their ability.

  19. #59
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    I see this mentality alot more on the forums than I do in game though. Its rare in game when a divine refuses to heal. I see threads on it weekly on the forums however.
    This I can surely agree with.
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  20. #60
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallajulia View Post
    ...i never played toon who is not self sufficient, not matter what class....
    This.

    Though I also get fidgety when I don't have evasion and trap skills...which is a stretch for some toons to have.

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