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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Tank - LOLz . . . you're joking right? If you're ever in a situation where you think a tank could be useful you're doing something wrong.
    He has to be... Tanks are utterly useless in this game, save may be for some raids... and even there, not convinced yet. This game is out of the typical 3-4 DPS, 1 Healer, 1 Tank type groups. Insta-obvious after a few days playing...

    There are so few things affecting agro in this game, it isn't even something that can be made workable in the current game format.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Healer: Well . .. of course you can hjeal meh . . . but it's not needed. I'd rather have another guys killing stuff than a life-support system for gimps.
    Debatable, but as a generality, I also prefer people who can self heal and deal heavy damage. I'm so used to self-healing by now, that I still self-heal even with a dedicated full time healer in the group ( when there is one ).

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bard - not needed for anything . . . and a good bard can still kill things, just not as well as other toons.
    NO ONE is needed for anything, but a fascinate bard can totally trivialize some EE's. and "just not as well as other toons" is what we're discussing. Only now instead of other people "parsing" you are parsing A Bard's DPS is at best comparable to a Paladin's and I think most people agree that = "weak" or how did you put it? "Meh" was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Tank - LOLz . . . you're joking right? If you're ever in a situation where you think a tank could be useful you're doing something wrong.
    Okay you don't do FoT or LoB that's perfectly okay. For the record a Tank in some EE's makes things go so much smoother that people should try it (Whats his face in that Demonweb quest that has the triple attack works much better with a tank, ofc most people just range him) but of course we're already in "forum reality" land versus actual in game reality, where there are plenty of people in DDO who build tanks despite not being WoW-like in necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Healer: Well . .. of course you can hjeal meh . . . but it's not needed. I'd rather have another guys killing stuff than a life-support system for gimps.
    So you don't raid at all? Okay nothing wrong with that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Enchant Wizard: Mine has a 63 DC . . . but also has 68 Necro and the Energy Burst/Dragon breath damage on a group of held mobs is very good. Again, no reason you can't still kill stuff on an enehcanter.
    Okay bad example, because everyone has a 68 necro DC right? Parsing again
    Last edited by IronClan; 01-15-2014 at 04:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    He has to be... Tanks are utterly useless in this game, save may be for some raids...
    Maybe? For the record, because this is something that people on forums love to do, words like "useless" are objective absolute statements that are disproved by ANY EXCEPTION. LoB and FoT are most often run with Tanks so the word "useless" can be dismissed out of hand.

    Furthermore some players very much have the ability to lock down a mobs aggro, where a less "tanky" build will have problems. I've seen lots of non maximal intim and Ki shout melee's fail to keep the truthful one on them when the real tank went down for whatever reason. But then I play the game on the servers and don't play the forum "popular narrative" version of DDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    NO ONE is needed for anything, but a fascinate bard can totally trivialize some EE's. and "just not as well as other toons" is what we're discussing. Only now instead of other people "parsing" you are parsing A Bard's DPS is at best comparable to a Paladin's and I think most people agree that = "weak" or how did you put it? "Meh" was it?
    There is no Strategy where a bard is optimal. There is no situation where bringing a bard adds any more value than something better at killing things.


    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Okay you don't do FoT or LoB that's perfectly okay. For the record a Tank in some EE's makes things go so much smoother that people should try it (Whats his face in that Demonweb quest that has the triple attack works much better with a tank, ofc most people just range him) but of course we're already in "forum reality" land versus actual in game reality, where there are plenty of people in DDO who build tanks despite not being WoW-like in necessity.
    I don't even have anyone flagged for LOB at this moment.

    Tanks aren't needed in FOT, nor is a healer. Look at Speed run video if you need further education.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So you don't raid at all? Okay nothing wrong with that...
    We BYOH all the raids at this point when we actually run them.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Okay bad example, because everyone has a 68 necro DC right? Parsing again
    Everyone SHOULD :P

  5. #105
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    Who talked about bragging doing EEs? I only stated that they are somewhat of a challenge at times, rather than EH which is good for quick grinding, but not for any type of alertness practice.
    You spoke of accomplishment being a goal. That era is dead in DDO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    Go PUG some more, open up your groups like I do and pay attention. Believe you me, there are a lot of people who still can't do EH, and aren't even dreaming about Epic Elites. Lets not even mention solo'ing those quests.
    Hardly. Ive alot more experience than someone who needs to "open up their pugs more" - been here since day one when this game was sold in a box, done that, bought the t-shirt, still wear the shirt when lounging around the house. If people "cant" do EE they are either new, or they avoid it by choice because it doesnt fit their agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    And in my books... when I ran a quest such as EE POP a few days ago , and 2 people ( PURE MONKS! ) were 80% of the time dead within 15 sec of each boss fight, even though we completed the quest.. I still don't consider them EE capable. They were simply lucky to have people who could complete without them.
    They were likely doing it wrong. Either undergeared, or used the leroy jenkins strategy, or didnt play to avoid damage. If its undergeared, its not tough to gear at all in this game anymore. Everything else is a playstyle disparity.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Maybe? For the record, because this is something that people on forums love to do, words like "useless" are objective absolute statements that are disproved by ANY EXCEPTION. LoB and FoT are most often run with Tanks so the word "useless" can be dismissed out of hand.

    Furthermore some players very much have the ability to lock down a mobs aggro, where a less "tanky" build will have problems. I've seen lots of non maximal intim and Ki shout melee's fail to keep the truthful one on them when the real tank went down for whatever reason. But then I play the game on the servers and don't play the forum "popular narrative" version of DDO.
    Ran EH FOT 3 times back to back last week without an actual tank. Monk did it just fine.

    And did I see you write " most often run with " not " always run with "? Hence once again, showing that tanks are OPTIONAL.

    I call characters that you can use effectively for a few hours a week, and that are optional in most cases as useless.

    Sorry, but I don't want a tank in my Epic Elite quests. I just don't.

    I want DAMAGE OUTPUT that can SELF-HEAL, because in the end, that will get it done for sure.

    Its all about overall effectiveness based on the game design. I don't hate tanks, I played a tank for years in other MMOs, and they had value. Here, they barely have any.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    Hardly. Ive alot more experience than someone who needs to "open up their pugs more" - been here since day one when this game was sold in a box, done that, bought the t-shirt, still wear the shirt when lounging around the house. If people "cant" do EE they are either new, or they avoid it by choice because it doesnt fit their agenda.
    New can be a reason. Inexperienced another one. Lack of knowledge, etc etc etc... there are plenty of reasons.

    As to your experience, I don't wanna deny it, however, the game has changed a lot in the last year (as you know), and if you don't open your groups, how will you get to know and feel other people's reality?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    New can be a reason. Inexperienced another one. Lack of knowledge, etc etc etc... there are plenty of reasons.

    As to your experience, I don't wanna deny it, however, the game has changed a lot in the last year (as you know), and if you don't open your groups, how will you get to know and feel other people's reality?
    I do open my groups, and I completely understand the reality of PUGing. Yes the game HAS changed, mostly to make it far easier than it used to be.

    There are still monetized time syncs, but I dont confuse that with challenge.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I do open my groups, and I completely understand the reality of PUGing. Yes the game HAS changed, mostly to make it far easier than it used to be.

    There are still monetized time syncs, but I dont confuse that with challenge.
    Alright, fair enough

    And yes, the game is pretty easy in general. I can't compare to " earlier " though, as I wasn't there.

    Even raid mechanics are extremely limited.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is no Strategy where a bard is optimal. There is no situation where bringing a bard adds any more value than something better at killing things.
    Well in the actual game, Bards join LFM's, perhaps you're extremely secluded in a static group or guild, or you're one of those "strongs only" people who needs a optimal group to assure success (Hey nothing wrong with that, though I wish those types would stop pretending it's because they are "Elite" at the game). In any case that would explain some of your misguided expectations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I don't even have anyone flagged for LOB at this moment.
    Well then the obvious question is why comment on something you admittedly don't have experience in? Oh nm, I forgot: troll, right... sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Tanks aren't needed in FOT, nor is a healer. Look at Speed run video if you need further education.
    Right because Youtube videos of speed runs accurately represent the actual state of playing the game... for 99% of the players. Exceptions are not the norm, by definition.

    As the saying goes: The exception tests teh_troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We BYOH all the raids at this point when we actually run them.
    Okay so you're not much a part of the raiding scene, but when you do them your group/guild all BYOH... What was I saying about exceptions?
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Okay so you're not much a part of the raiding scene, but when you do them your group/guild all BYOH... What was I saying about exceptions?
    Hmmm, other than like AT LEVEL raids, I don't recall seeing " save 2 spots for healers " or such note in LFMs. And AT LEVEL raids are .. well, they exist, don't see them much though.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    Ran EH FOT 3 times back to back last week without an actual tank. Monk did it just fine.

    And did I see you write " most often run with " not " always run with "? Hence once again, showing that tanks are OPTIONAL.
    Once again "useless" is an objective absolute, any exception even "optional" disproves it. If you had said "Tanks are optional and not that useful" I wouldn't have disagreed.

    The Monk did fine because of Ki Shout (an ability that in itself is probably far too good, why not give Barbarians intim that's based on STR or CON score lol), none the less my Monk can not keep Truthful ones Aggro locked in 100% with Ki Shout because I am more interested in DPS then maximal concentration score. I.e. I have "enough" concentration skill and more would lower my DPS and increase my con skills and survivability (via raising my Con more than is necessary)... To be an effective lock down Tank I would want to farm up a cleanser and a 45hp +6 CON skills Greensteel. My point is the tanks that actually keep aggro usually have twisted and geared and paid some sort of opportunity cost to do it. Then there's the Sorc tank (Intim Sorc/Pali's who have given up 2 to 4 sorc levels for Saves, and Intim/Charisma synergy. There's a opp cost there too even if it's totally worth paying).

    Lower my DPS to increase my aggro and survival?

    Sounds like the definition of "actual tank" to me. If you want to define "tank" as only a S&B Pali with intim, high CHA and Unyielding destiny then I guess you're right "no one needs a tanks" but I have a broader definition, and the game seems to mirror it.
    Last edited by IronClan; 01-15-2014 at 06:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    NO ONE is needed for anything, but a fascinate bard can totally trivialize some EE's. and "just not as well as other toons" is what we're discussing. Only now instead of other people "parsing" you are parsing A Bard's DPS is at best comparable to a Paladin's and I think most people agree that = "weak" or how did you put it? "Meh" was it?
    Anything you can do with fascinate, you can do with mass invisibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    Go PUG some more, open up your groups like I do and pay attention. Believe you me, there are a lot of people who still can't do EH, and aren't even dreaming about Epic Elites. Lets not even mention solo'ing those quests.
    Cant do EH's? Are EH's much harder than the old epics? I remember being new on my first life toons hitting 20 and going into Epics and contributing even playing certain roles well, I couldn't solo any right off the bat though, but couldn't do them? I consider myself on the lower part of the skill scale, and in the time sink power gaming style............those people who cannot full stop do current EH's...................damn.

  15. #115
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Once again "useless" is an objective absolute, any exception even "optional" disproves it. If you had said "Tanks are optional and not that useful" I wouldn't have disagreed.

    The Monk did fine because of Ki Shout (an ability that in itself is probably far too good, why not give Barbarians intim that's based on STR or CON score lol), none the less my Monk can not keep Truthful ones Aggro locked in 100% with Ki Shout because I am more interested in DPS then maximal concentration score. I.e. I have "enough" concentration skill and more would lower my DPS and increase my con skills and survivability (via raising my Con more than is necessary)... To be an effective lock down Tank I would want to farm up a cleanser and a 45hp +6 CON skills Greensteel. My point is the tanks that actually keep aggro usually have twisted and geared and paid some sort of opportunity cost to do it. Then there's the Sorc tank (Intim Sorc/Pali's who have given up 2 to 4 sorc levels for Saves, and Intim/Charisma synergy. There's a opp cost there too even if it's totally worth paying).

    Lower my DPS to increase my aggro and survival?

    Sounds like the definition of "actual tank" to me. If you want to define "tank" as only a S&B Pali with intim, high CHA and Unyielding destiny then I guess you're right "no one needs a tanks" but I have a broader definition, and the game seems to mirror it.
    Whenever I join fot, they always have some monk or ranger as reaver tank, holding aggro because he's the only one hitting.
    Meanwhile, T1 is hit by everyone with no regards to tanking.
    Whoever got aggro tanks, and its still succes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Cant do EH's? Are EH's much harder than the old epics? I remember being new on my first life toons hitting 20 and going into Epics and contributing even playing certain roles well, I couldn't solo any right off the bat though, but couldn't do them? I consider myself on the lower part of the skill scale, and in the time sink power gaming style............those people who cannot full stop do current EH's...................damn.
    No, but some people have inefficient builds or EDs, and they have a hard time from lvl 5 to 28

    Been there... learned a hell of a lot, moved on to be an okay player

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icywave View Post
    Hmmm, other than like AT LEVEL raids, I don't recall seeing " save 2 spots for healers " or such note in LFMs. And AT LEVEL raids are .. well, they exist, don't see them much though.
    Perhaps I have a different perspective on this having two healers that I play actively, but I notice raids with "healer, beaters and go" or divine/Druid/bard filter icons when they didn't get at least one early in the fill process all the time... constantly all night long.

    Your server must be full of Ubers or lots of seriously "gimped DPS to self heal in a raid beat down" characters because on mine a Healer for any raid is almost a given. There was a freaking EH Von5-6 last night that waited for a healer. That said a lot of them on Thelanis get their healer(s) early on in the fill process via channels. But it is a nightly occurance to see _the usual raid leader suspects_ waiting for a healer with 11 spots filled. Granted some of that is the fact that many Thelanis healers don't want to join the raids of _two people I wont name_ On the other hand many of the well liked raid leaders on Thelanis still expect a healer, they just tend to not have a problem getting them and never have to put the filter on.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Whenever I join fot, they always have some monk or ranger as reaver tank, holding aggro because he's the only one hitting.
    Meanwhile, T1 is hit by everyone with no regards to tanking.
    Whoever got aggro tanks, and its still succes.
    Idem

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Anything you can do with fascinate, you can do with mass invisibility.
    You see that red eye Vell? that's 99.9% of the mobs in EE not caring that you're invised. Unless you only invis run Red Fens, I don't think mass invis is doing a lot for you. LOL seriously I guess a lot of people haven't experienced a good EE bard, it's pretty impressive stuff, but admittedly there aren't a lot of them, due to the Bard's everything else being so weak, and the Druids having basically the same ability but without the wake up on damage, and having great spell DPS to make the class more fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Perhaps I have a different perspective on this having two healers that I play actively, but I notice raids with "healer, beaters and go" or divine/Druid/bard filter icons when they didn't get at least one early in the fill process all the time... constantly all night long.

    Your server must be full of Ubers or lots of seriously "gimped DPS to self heal in a raid beat down" characters because on mine a Healer for any raid is almost a given. There was a freaking EH Von5-6 last night that waited for a healer. That said a lot of them on Thelanis get their healer(s) early on in the fill process via channels. But it is a nightly occurance to see _the usual raid leader suspects_ waiting for a healer with 11 spots filled. Granted some of that is the fact that many Thelanis healers don't want to join the raids of _two people I wont name_ On the other hand many of the well liked raid leaders on Thelanis still expect a healer, they just tend to not have a problem getting them and never have to put the filter on.
    half the time we don't wait on a healer for a lot of raids it really depends on who has joined, sometimes I would be told to spot heal on a bard but when its obvious im not needed to do that I pull out the weapon and start swinging, Or we just take 1 healer, again depends on how it shapes out.

    Its possible to be good to top tier dps and still have decent self healing, just because a character has self healing doesn't mean his dps is gimped?
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 01-15-2014 at 06:34 PM.

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