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Thread: DPS Paladin

  1. #1
    Community Member camshaft355's Avatar
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    Default DPS Paladin

    I have a build that I got from a friend and so I used this build and I was hitting 100s-120s as a paladin. Critting around 500-600. It is 15paly/3monk/2fighter its a very good build and I prefer it to people who want to dps.
    Can solo most EE in dread ED with Blitz

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as a DPS pally.

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    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is no such thing as a DPS pally.
    Nonsense.
    Just splash 12 fighter and 6 monk.

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    Community Member Glad's Avatar
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    DDO Paladin died before 2 years, i hope you know good necromancer
    Thelanis: Gladnadjeva Limeny Bimbamboom Cutyslice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is no such thing as a DPS pally.
    Oh, Paladins aren't *that* bad.

    A character that's primarily Paladin can do perfectly acceptable dps. Not the best dps or anything, but they wouldn't be a liability. The problem is that many of the better Paladin abilities are accessible at low level. So if you're min/maxing you're going to find that splashing 2 or 4 levels of Paladin while primarily going another class will give better results than primarily going Paladin and then splashing other classes.

    In part it depends on what you mean by "dps". Burst? Sustained? Over what time period? In a nutshell, Paladins can do very good burst dps with Empowered Smite, especially against Evil targets and whichever of Undead or Evil Outsiders you're focusing on. But for sustained blow after blow against, say, a neutral enemy, the Paladin is going to lag behind a good Fighter/Monk build.

    Edit - Also, being survivable and self-sustaining has a lot of value in DDO, and Paladins are generally pretty good at that. I haven't done the math, but I suspect a well-built pure Barb could be pretty formidable in terms of pure dps. But... Ugh. You'd really have to like potions.
    Last edited by Wrathharvest; 01-13-2014 at 10:06 AM.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathharvest View Post
    Oh, Paladins aren't *that* bad.
    Yes they are. If you can say that then you don't know what "good" is.

    I'm not saying this to troll (okay, maybe a little) I'm saying this because the class needs love.

    A class needs to add value, more than being a 2-splash.

  7. #7
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    I agree with troll.

    DDO's Paladin was given two pathetic class trees (okay maybe a little pathetic, but still pathetic) plus their Divine Might was badly changed and was typed to be unstackable with insightful STR items. The only reason why people use Paladin anymore is for the saves, nothing more.

    Paladin needs love, am talking real love, as in class trees that give total badass abilities in a way that gives you a reason not to splash Paladin with something else.

    If Turbine just listened to their fans regarding the Paladin class trees, they wouldn't have so many angry costumers complaining about what they have done.
    Last edited by bennyson; 01-13-2014 at 11:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yes they are. If you can say that then you don't know what "good" is.

    I'm not saying this to troll (okay, maybe a little) I'm saying this because the class needs love.

    A class needs to add value, more than being a 2-splash.
    Pff. Of course you're trolling, but that's fine.

    I'm procrasting on a project anyway, so lets break this down a bit: What exactly does a Paladin bring to the table compared with other folks? Lets assume ~12 levels in the class and that everyone's going to Furyshotting and whatnot.

    The Paladin would have Slayer of Evil II (spec'ed for whatever the expected foe would be) and Improved Courage of Heaven, giving 2d6 vs evil foes and 4d6 vs undead/outsiders. Then you pick up your extra Smites and Exalted Smite, so you've got 6 shots of +2 Crit Range and Multiplier. Div Might and Div Sac you'd certainly have, but other classes might or might not have as well, depending on the build. You might max Sac out on the Paladin, though, giving you another 4d6 on each Sac.

    Now, another rule. I said "good", not best or optimal or whatever. So while a Fighter/Monk is presumably going to top the tables, you can't just bust him out and show how strong he is, because then the Paladin is merely "not optimal". To actually be bad, you need to be beating that substantially with a couple additional options. I'm willing to concede to being wrong, but you have to lay it out.
    Last edited by Wrathharvest; 01-13-2014 at 11:14 AM.

  9. #9

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    Whomhead's Divine Phoenix build is very versatile. It can dish out decent DPS, has excellent saves and fulfill several roles depending on gear and destiny. Running it effectively involves some intense button mashing, but well worth the effort.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    While I enjoy playing my Pure Paladin, I have to agree that I do not have the DPS of some of the monster DPS builds or other classes. At one point Paladins did have the whole self healing tank role locked up, but now so many classes have just enough self healing even that is no longer a reason.

    Paladins get all of their granted aspects at level 6. Every level after that just adds more usage of the Paladin specific abilities. At 3 levels a person can access most of what they need to enhance a character as level 4 to 6 only gets Turn Undead (which most players don't need as Divine Might is now SP driven and not Turn driven), an Extra Smite Evil and Remove Disease.

    While not a complete fix, a couple of spells added to the paladin list might make a big difference.

    Level 1
    Bless Weapon -
    This transmutation makes a weapon strike true against evil foes. The weapon is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of bypassing the damage reduction of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures (though the spell doesn’t grant an actual enhancement bonus). The weapon also becomes good, which means it can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. (This effect overrides and suppresses any other alignment the weapon might have.) Individual arrows or bolts can be transmuted, but affected projectile weapons (such as bows) don’t confer the benefit to the projectiles they shoot.

    In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword.

    Magic Weapon -
    Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)

    You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.
    potentially change this to a +1 stacking bonus on the weapons enhancement and ignore the masterwork,

    Protection from Chaos - Paladins don't just fight Evil, they also fight Chaos in all its forms
    This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from chaotic creatures, and chaotic summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

    Level 2
    Shield Other -
    This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including that dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.

    Undetectable Alignment -
    An undetectable alignment spell conceals the alignment of an object or a creature from all forms of divination.
    potentially changing this so that for alignment bypass purposes, it treats the Paladin as True Neutral thus still needing the UMD to bypass use, but not conveying the negatives for using an item because of wrong alignment

    Level 3
    Magic Circle against Chaos -
    See Protection from Chaos above.

    Magic Weapon, Greater -
    This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).

    Alternatively, you can affect as many as fifty arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same kind, and they have to be together (in the same quiver or other container). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their transmutation when used. (Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.)
    see notes about magic weapon above, again this would be a stacking bonus

    Level 4
    Dispel Evil -
    Dispel Chaos -
    Shimmering, white, holy energy surrounds you. This power has three effects.

    First, you gain a +4 deflection bonus to AC against attacks by evil/chaotic creatures.

    Second, on making a successful melee touch attack against an evil/chaotic creature from another plane, you can choose to drive that creature back to its home plane. The creature can negate the effects with a successful Will save (spell resistance applies). This use discharges and ends the spell.

    Third, with a touch you can automatically dispel any one enchantment spell cast by an evil creature or any one evil spell. Exception: Spells that can’t be dispelled by dispel magic also can’t be dispelled by dispel evil/Chaos. Saving throws and spell resistance do not apply to this effect. This use discharges and ends the spell.

    Mark of Justice -
    You draw an indelible mark on the subject and state some behavior on the part of the subject that will activate the mark. When activated, the mark curses the subject. Typically, you designate some sort of criminal behavior that activates the mark, but you can pick any act you please. The effect of the mark is identical with the effect of bestow curse.

    Since this spell takes 10 minutes to cast and involves writing on the target, you can cast it only on a creature that is willing or restrained.

    Like the effect of bestow curse, a mark of justice cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell. Remove curse works only if its caster level is equal to or higher than your mark of justice caster level. These restrictions apply regardless of whether the mark has activated.

    Also a change to the Holy Sword spell to allow All Melee Weapons (expand the current list)

    I would welcome a review/revamp of the Paladin Trees, to make them more comparable with options available to other melee counterparts.

  11. #11
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    It occurs to me while looking over the other enhancement trees is that the issue isn't really so much a problem with the Paladin tree. The real issue is two-fold:

    - First, Cocoon is way too good and easily accessed. Virtually everyone over level 20 can have access to it and its tremendous for survivability. This makes Paladin self-healing, which used to be its calling card, kind of an afterthought because now its really only useful as a supplement to Cocoon. Obviously this doesn't impact dps per se, but if everyone gets enough survivability to get over the hump through Cocoon, classes with more capacity to trade survivability for dps end up better off. This is the problem, of course, with Barbs as well since Rage = No Cocoon.

    - Second, Monks are probably OP, and on top of that, they play really well with the Kensai tree (seriously, how many other trees give bonuses only useful to a class other than the one the tree is in?) making the Fighter/Monk combo really, really strong.

    If you broke those two things, Paladins would suddenly look a lot better. Though admittedly, the late paladin levels are still fairly lackluster.

  12. #12
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathharvest View Post
    If you broke those two things, Paladins would suddenly look a lot better. Though admittedly, the late paladin levels are still fairly lackluster.
    Looking just at DPS though its still behind every other class in the game. It doesn't have nearly as much static damage as a Rogue, can't compete with the Barbadians Crit multiplier, doesn't attack as fast as a Tempest Ranger and has no where near as many feat, you already looked at monk and fighter. Whats that leave bards and casters ok it will beat a bard, and casters are different enough that its not fair to compare them.

    That leaves Paladins in really bad company.

  13. #13
    Community Member camshaft355's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is no such thing as a DPS pally.
    Yes there is and i just proved it have you seen a paly hit over 100 with no adren or buffs i don't think so....... and it may be splashed but its mainly Paladin build a little add-on with the monk and fighter just for a bit of damage other than that its a paladin build. I can consider it a DPS paly if i want to all i did was prefer it to people if you want to make paladin look good.
    Last edited by camshaft355; 01-13-2014 at 06:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camshaft355 View Post
    Yes there is and i just proved it have you seen a paly hit over 100 with no adren or buffs i don't think so.......
    You haven't actually proved anything yet.

    You've made a claim without giving us any details about stats,feats,gear,enhancements, etc. that allowed you to accomplish this. Let a lone a screenshot of a regular hit doing as much damage as you claim.

  15. #15
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camshaft355 View Post
    Yes there is and i just proved it have you seen a paly hit over 100 with no adren or buffs i don't think so....... and it may be splashed but its mainly Paladin build a little add-on with the monk and fighter just for a bit of damage other than that its a paladin build. I can consider it a DPS paly if i want to all i did was prefer it to people if you want to make paladin look good.
    those damage numbers are suppose to be amazing? Im getting higher on my gimp bard..............

  16. #16
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camshaft355 View Post
    Yes there is and i just proved it have you seen a paly hit over 100 with no adren or buffs i don't think so....... and it may be splashed but its mainly Paladin build a little add-on with the monk and fighter just for a bit of damage other than that its a paladin build. I can consider it a DPS paly if i want to all i did was prefer it to people if you want to make paladin look good.
    You cant just say something is when there's no evidence.

    You never said anything about what type of gear that character had on, gear is important as well as the overall build, you can have an amazing build but it isn't affective because you didn't give that toon decent gear.

    You also never said anything about what enhancements were chosen on that toon as well, was it an archer? A melee? What?

    Not only that, you never said anything about what stats it had, we don't know if it had 40 STR, used Int as a dump stat, or if it had 30 dex or something.

    Nor is there any graphic evidence (screenshot!) of those damage numbers in action.

    For all we know you could have just made it all up.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    I agree with troll.

    DDO's Paladin was given two pathetic class trees (okay maybe a little pathetic, but still pathetic) plus their Divine Might was badly changed and was typed to be unstackable with insightful STR items. The only reason why people use Paladin anymore is for the saves, nothing more.

    Paladin needs love, am talking real love, as in class trees that give total badass abilities in a way that gives you a reason not to splash Paladin with something else.

    If Turbine just listened to their fans regarding the Paladin class trees, they wouldn't have so many angry costumers complaining about what they have done.
    The merging of KOTC and HOTD without merging the Slayer of Evil together was just a bad idea. Paladins would currently be in a better place if KOTC and HOTD were never merged so that Paladins would be more useful than just a niche evil mob attacker. It's not like allowing Paladins to do damage to Evil Outsiders and Undead would make them the dominate melee in the game. As stated above, because paladins are niche mob attackers, there's little reason to splash more than 2 or 3 levels and almost no reason to splash more than 6 levels.

    The change to Divine Might was outright stupid. Divine Might should have been untouched since it did damage to all mobs and the only way to gain the previous max damage is to get CHA 46, which is unachievable by level 20. This change also means that one of two obvious Epic paladin feats will never see the light of day in DDO: Epic Divine Might - double the damage of CHA modifier. (The other Epic feat that should have been added to the game a year ago is Great Smiting - which doubles the damage of Paladin's Smites.)

    Besides, if the Devs really wanted to give Paladins a STR mod boost, they could have added a new ability in one of the trees. It's not like the Devs added a bunch of new stuff for Paladins anyway in the trees.

    Does anyone remember what Zeal originally did? Zeal originally increased the attack speed for paladins, and I believe it also stacked with Haste. It was changed to the current Double Strike increase. Why was it changed? It was to cut down on lag a long, long time ago. Now we have Speed items that do exactly the same thing (and it doesn't affect lag, it seems). Now we have other melees (including Clerics and FvS) that get speed attack boosts and Haste. Yet Paladins don't have any such thing.

    Speaking of Double Strike, Paladins in Heroics only get it via Zeal or equipment. But other classes get a no cost Double Strike via enhancements. Even Sorcs and Wizards can gain it via Enhancements.

    Paladins have no general damage boosters anymore because of the change to Divine Might. On top of that, Paladins are the only class that doesn't gain a no cost general melee damage boost. Even Clerics, FvS, Sorcs, Wizards and Bards get a no cost general damage boost. Everything used to increase damage for Paladins (except for a evil mobs and specific type of subset of evil mobs) costs Paladins something. And the Special attacks on those Evil also cost something.

    Smite is limited and doesn't build back up quick enough. So Smite is put into reserves except for major boss fights. Lay on Hands can only build back up when you rest or use an ED/Twist, so a self-healing Paladin is forced into giving up a twist slot or ED to do something that should be a granted ability by level 20 for the class.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camshaft355 View Post
    Yes there is and i just proved it have you seen a paly hit over 100 with no adren or buffs i don't think so.......
    LOL.

    My bard laughs at you, and my bard is terrible.

  19. #19
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathharvest View Post
    It occurs to me while looking over the other enhancement trees is that the issue isn't really so much a problem with the Paladin tree. The real issue is two-fold:

    - First, Cocoon is way too good and easily accessed. Virtually everyone over level 20 can have access to it and its tremendous for survivability. This makes Paladin self-healing, which used to be its calling card, kind of an afterthought because now its really only useful as a supplement to Cocoon. Obviously this doesn't impact dps per se, but if everyone gets enough survivability to get over the hump through Cocoon, classes with more capacity to trade survivability for dps end up better off. This is the problem, of course, with Barbs as well since Rage = No Cocoon.
    I have been leveling up a ranger/paladin/monk build in unyielding sentinel multiple times. One of the strengths of the build is light in the dark the unyielding ability. I can heal the rest of the party who are not always diligent or good at healing themselves seven times which regenerates (lay on hands ability regenerates). The need for a primary healer is lessened even further. I can not help, but think I wish that the paladin base class had a similar ability.

    - Second, Monks are probably OP, and on top of that, they play really well with the Kensai tree (seriously, how many other trees give bonuses only useful to a class other than the one the tree is in?) making the Fighter/Monk combo really, really strong.

    If you broke those two things, Paladins would suddenly look a lot better. Though admittedly, the late paladin levels are still fairly lackluster.
    Fighter/Monk is a nice combo for sure, but there are other combos which are nice as well. I am not sure that Ranger/monk or rogue/monk are really far off fighter/monk, but hey what have you.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 01-13-2014 at 10:46 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There is no such thing as a DPS pally.
    This is a true statement....

    or Bard for that matter. Or pretty much anything that does not have Dance of Flowers and Master of Earth stance.

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