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  1. #1
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default The "Get crafting" rant

    Get crafting - now from Jan. 10-16.

    May I ask: "What for?"

    Or even more rant, especially regarding Cannith Crafting - this is a complete rip-off!!!

    Crafting is dead. With perhaps the exception of rogue items for opening locks or disabling traps crafting is stone dead. No new craftable suffixes and prefixes. No masterwork crafting. No incentive to craft beyond the first after-TR equipement. Crafting even is in a worse shape than the horrendous Shadowfell expansion.

    Things that would make crafting interesting again:
    + Implementing ALL the prefixes and suffixes to craft on items.
    + Doing away with the bug that effectively hinders to craft beyond +5 items.
    + Doing away with the +10 limit.
    + Including masterwork, paragon and epic base item crafting.
    + Making different crafting systems work together, e.g. alchemical, greensteel, masterwork/paragon/epic. If I have the right crystalls, I should be able to craft in House C onto any weapon havng enough +x to hold the crystall.

    And please stop to rip off newbie players that do not know better!

  2. #2
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    + Doing away with the +10 limit.

    Is the +10 limit a recent bug?
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 01-10-2014 at 02:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Is the +10 limit a recent bug?
    It´s a practival bug. You get +5 spirits and if you combine the +5 chrystall with the best prefixes and with the best suffixes, you rarely get something better than +9 or +10 total. Because there simply are no better prefixes and suffixes.

    Edit: It´s more of a limit than a bug actually. Crafting had been designed for lv. 20 max and never got an upgrade into epics, so most suffixes and prefixes stop with a certain crystal +x level. And if best prefix and suffix combined, the result more often than not is a +9 or +10 item. again, this results from the times when Crafting was supposed to produce ML18 items at best.
    Last edited by Nestroy; 01-10-2014 at 04:16 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Is the +10 limit a recent bug?
    No, it was ever thus, except I think the top level is plus 15 -potential- I assume that's what you are talking about.

    I think its such a wasted opportunity in a game littered with wasted opportunities, cannith crafting could be a truly great system, and the bulk of the work and systems are already in place, but no-one at turbine can be bothered with it.

    My guess why is that it is not shiny enough both for players and some internal dev kudos/ reasons turbine brownie point reasons.

    Being able to slap mastercraftsmanship on challenge items is good but the list of what is good about Cannith crafting is not very long
    I like being able to craft my own ML 9 +6 items and lowbie armour but then I still have a bucket load of large and medium guild slot items. If you don't have those then its all pretty much below average at best.

    Because destroyer of loot didn't like guild slot items because he hadn't thought of them, and that they, and the gems were not on sale in the store they were sidelined, and with them went one of the major attractions of Cannith crafting.

    In some ways Cannith crafting, its hurried, incomplete implementation, development, bug history, path and eventual forced redundancy and the reasons for all the aforementioned are a perfect encapsulation of a very large proportion of Turbines many failures.
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  5. #5
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    I think the crafting system didn't pay off for them monetarily and that's why they just abandoned it.

    It seems like a total waste in the weekly sale rotation because people that invested in crafting when the level cap was 20 are essentially done by now. For people that didn't, there is no real incentive to spend real $ on something that is already obsolete.

    Crafting still has its uses, but it's much weaker relative to what it used to be when the level cap was 20.
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  6. #6
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    Taking the current crafting system as the early adopted version, it was definitely worthwhile to prove the concept.

    There is scope for crafting to be a viable and entertaining part of the overall gear experience.

    Now all we need to do it to revamp it, extend it, and tie it in with the other crafting/augment systems.

    I want to be able to change the colour of augment slots on items - let me craft a dye that I use
    I want to be able to craft every type of prefix or suffix available on any piece of random loot in addition to what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft higher level augments with sensible ML, not what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft double prefix and suffix shards
    I want to be able to use existing items as ingredients to high level crafting recipes to distill special shards from them, creating a new source of demand for certain high level items - not just arrows
    I want to be able to overwrite effects to increase or decrease the level of the crafted gear I have so I don't need to disjunct it ever time or create a space problem for all these different items
    I want to be able to take an item and distill it down to a blueprint that stacks in a folder to save on inventory space and allow me to retain the option to recreate that item if I should decide to Heroic TR and go back to lower level content - and make the blueprints tradeable.
    I want to be able to craft more effects onto named items than what the current Stone of Change currently allows
    I want to be able to craft rare Risia or Mabar shards using ingredients only found from those festival events (and I want more festivals than we currently have - 13 planes of Eberron, only 2 events?)
    I want a unified view of crafting/trading that allows me to take a few million Prayer Beads or a few bajillion platinum and exchange/craft them all the way up to Commendations of Valor or Astral Shards - link the whole thing together and give us a unified system where everything has potential value

    I don't want for much

    If you want a hand working out specific details, be happy to discuss. The principle is simple - keep crafting relevant, allow it to grow and expand. At-level named gear should always be at least as powerful as at-level random/crafted gear, if not more powerful (stick another not-useless effect on it if in doubt).

  7. #7
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Taking the current crafting system as the early adopted version, it was definitely worthwhile to prove the concept.

    There is scope for crafting to be a viable and entertaining part of the overall gear experience.

    Now all we need to do it to revamp it, extend it, and tie it in with the other crafting/augment systems.

    I want to be able to change the colour of augment slots on items - let me craft a dye that I use
    I want to be able to craft every type of prefix or suffix available on any piece of random loot in addition to what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft higher level augments with sensible ML, not what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft double prefix and suffix shards
    I want to be able to use existing items as ingredients to high level crafting recipes to distill special shards from them, creating a new source of demand for certain high level items - not just arrows
    I want to be able to overwrite effects to increase or decrease the level of the crafted gear I have so I don't need to disjunct it ever time or create a space problem for all these different items
    I want to be able to take an item and distill it down to a blueprint that stacks in a folder to save on inventory space and allow me to retain the option to recreate that item if I should decide to Heroic TR and go back to lower level content - and make the blueprints tradeable.
    I want to be able to craft more effects onto named items than what the current Stone of Change currently allows
    I want to be able to craft rare Risia or Mabar shards using ingredients only found from those festival events (and I want more festivals than we currently have - 13 planes of Eberron, only 2 events?)
    I want a unified view of crafting/trading that allows me to take a few million Prayer Beads or a few bajillion platinum and exchange/craft them all the way up to Commendations of Valor or Astral Shards - link the whole thing together and give us a unified system where everything has potential value

    I don't want for much

    If you want a hand working out specific details, be happy to discuss. The principle is simple - keep crafting relevant, allow it to grow and expand. At-level named gear should always be at least as powerful as at-level random/crafted gear, if not more powerful (stick another not-useless effect on it if in doubt).
    Good stuff, especially that unified view.

    A short-term gap thing I'd like to fill in that unified view is a better way to contain ingredients. Stack sizes in bags vs inventory vs shared bank vs barter interfaces.

    I would pay serious cash to have a shared-bank-like ingredient repository that stacked to the bajillions on each type or converted to currency.
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  8. #8
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    I think the DDO crafting systems need to all be flattened. Make a new overall system that uses FEATS to unlock crafting (like in real D&D), combined with ingredients of varied rarity that are used in much the same way as we use them now (i.e. you need to have N of X ingredient, N of Y, a weapon blank, and the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). Hell, I think keeping the XP deficit system from PnP would be perfect for DDO as well, have the items cost XP based on how many +N the enchantment(s) is, scale it up fast (like double the previous +'s cost, starting at 2000xp). So a level 28 toon with the necessary crafting feats (mind you, craft epic arms and armor would need to be a feat as well) can craft a very powerful item but it'll cost em a motherload of XP that they'll have to re-earn in order to craft again.

    Under a system like this you still have grind (ingredient collection) but it's MUCH more accessible than the tedium of the Cannith system. The Greensteel system could be adapted as the entry to the enhanced crafting system as it's essentially what I'm talking about above. You could even include some flavor bonuses for different races in crafting feats (like Dwarves use less ingredients to make a magical arm or armor, humans use less for magic items, elves for potions, etc), these would be purchased as just a point entry in the Racial Enhancement tree.

    The problem DDO has is that none of it's crafting systems mesh with the mechanics of the rest of the game so they come across somewhat false and unwieldy. By going to the feat/ingredient system you take crafting back to the same structure as the rest of the game's mechanics and then can start further developing it without having to overlay too many new systems. Wanna make a racial Prestige for Dwarves called "Dwarven Armorer"? Now you have a structure and basis to build such a thing off of.

  9. #9
    Community Member Saekee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Taking the current crafting system as the early adopted version, it was definitely worthwhile to prove the concept.

    There is scope for crafting to be a viable and entertaining part of the overall gear experience.

    Now all we need to do it to revamp it, extend it, and tie it in with the other crafting/augment systems.

    I want to be able to change the colour of augment slots on items - let me craft a dye that I use
    I want to be able to craft every type of prefix or suffix available on any piece of random loot in addition to what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft higher level augments with sensible ML, not what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft double prefix and suffix shards
    I want to be able to use existing items as ingredients to high level crafting recipes to distill special shards from them, creating a new source of demand for certain high level items - not just arrows
    I want to be able to overwrite effects to increase or decrease the level of the crafted gear I have so I don't need to disjunct it ever time or create a space problem for all these different items
    I want to be able to take an item and distill it down to a blueprint that stacks in a folder to save on inventory space and allow me to retain the option to recreate that item if I should decide to Heroic TR and go back to lower level content - and make the blueprints tradeable.
    I want to be able to craft more effects onto named items than what the current Stone of Change currently allows
    I want to be able to craft rare Risia or Mabar shards using ingredients only found from those festival events (and I want more festivals than we currently have - 13 planes of Eberron, only 2 events?)
    I want a unified view of crafting/trading that allows me to take a few million Prayer Beads or a few bajillion platinum and exchange/craft them all the way up to Commendations of Valor or Astral Shards - link the whole thing together and give us a unified system where everything has potential value

    I don't want for much

    If you want a hand working out specific details, be happy to discuss. The principle is simple - keep crafting relevant, allow it to grow and expand. At-level named gear should always be at least as powerful as at-level random/crafted gear, if not more powerful (stick another not-useless effect on it if in doubt).
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Get crafting - now from Jan. 10-16.

    May I ask: "What for?"

    Or even more rant, especially regarding Cannith Crafting - this is a complete rip-off!!!

    Crafting is dead. With perhaps the exception of rogue items for opening locks or disabling traps crafting is stone dead. No new craftable suffixes and prefixes. No masterwork crafting. No incentive to craft beyond the first after-TR equipement. Crafting even is in a worse shape than the horrendous Shadowfell expansion.

    Things that would make crafting interesting again:
    + Implementing ALL the prefixes and suffixes to craft on items.
    + Doing away with the bug that effectively hinders to craft beyond +5 items.
    + Doing away with the +10 limit.
    + Including masterwork, paragon and epic base item crafting.
    + Making different crafting systems work together, e.g. alchemical, greensteel, masterwork/paragon/epic. If I have the right crystalls, I should be able to craft in House C onto any weapon havng enough +x to hold the crystall.

    And please stop to rip off newbie players that do not know better!
    Yep. Completely Agree. How hard would it be to at least let us craft augments? I could see people being very happy if they were able to craft their own useful augments. Use this as an opportunity to add new things to Cannith Crafting, such as augments of vampirism, augments of paralyzing, augments of bane, etc. Really sad to see that there's no effort to unify these two systems. Some of us put in a lot of effort into Cannith Crafting only to see it pretty much completely eclipsed.

  11. #11
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    I think the DDO crafting systems need to all be flattened. Make a new overall system that uses FEATS to unlock crafting (like in real D&D), combined with ingredients of varied rarity that are used in much the same way as we use them now (i.e. you need to have N of X ingredient, N of Y, a weapon blank, and the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). Hell, I think keeping the XP deficit system from PnP would be perfect for DDO as well, have the items cost XP based on how many +N the enchantment(s) is, scale it up fast (like double the previous +'s cost, starting at 2000xp). So a level 28 toon with the necessary crafting feats (mind you, craft epic arms and armor would need to be a feat as well) can craft a very powerful item but it'll cost em a motherload of XP that they'll have to re-earn in order to craft again.

    Under a system like this you still have grind (ingredient collection) but it's MUCH more accessible than the tedium of the Cannith system. The Greensteel system could be adapted as the entry to the enhanced crafting system as it's essentially what I'm talking about above. You could even include some flavor bonuses for different races in crafting feats (like Dwarves use less ingredients to make a magical arm or armor, humans use less for magic items, elves for potions, etc), these would be purchased as just a point entry in the Racial Enhancement tree.

    The problem DDO has is that none of it's crafting systems mesh with the mechanics of the rest of the game so they come across somewhat false and unwieldy. By going to the feat/ingredient system you take crafting back to the same structure as the rest of the game's mechanics and then can start further developing it without having to overlay too many new systems. Wanna make a racial Prestige for Dwarves called "Dwarven Armorer"? Now you have a structure and basis to build such a thing off of.
    I think this idea should be given special considerations by the devs. Avtually, this would make crafting as well as the now ongoing special sales week a success for both players and sales from Turbine shop!

  12. #12
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Taking the current crafting system as the early adopted version, it was definitely worthwhile to prove the concept.

    There is scope for crafting to be a viable and entertaining part of the overall gear experience.

    Now all we need to do it to revamp it, extend it, and tie it in with the other crafting/augment systems.

    I want to be able to change the colour of augment slots on items - let me craft a dye that I use
    I want to be able to craft every type of prefix or suffix available on any piece of random loot in addition to what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft higher level augments with sensible ML, not what we currently have
    I want to be able to craft double prefix and suffix shards
    I want to be able to use existing items as ingredients to high level crafting recipes to distill special shards from them, creating a new source of demand for certain high level items - not just arrows
    I want to be able to overwrite effects to increase or decrease the level of the crafted gear I have so I don't need to disjunct it ever time or create a space problem for all these different items
    I want to be able to take an item and distill it down to a blueprint that stacks in a folder to save on inventory space and allow me to retain the option to recreate that item if I should decide to Heroic TR and go back to lower level content - and make the blueprints tradeable.
    I want to be able to craft more effects onto named items than what the current Stone of Change currently allows
    I want to be able to craft rare Risia or Mabar shards using ingredients only found from those festival events (and I want more festivals than we currently have - 13 planes of Eberron, only 2 events?)
    I want a unified view of crafting/trading that allows me to take a few million Prayer Beads or a few bajillion platinum and exchange/craft them all the way up to Commendations of Valor or Astral Shards - link the whole thing together and give us a unified system where everything has potential value

    I don't want for much

    If you want a hand working out specific details, be happy to discuss. The principle is simple - keep crafting relevant, allow it to grow and expand. At-level named gear should always be at least as powerful as at-level random/crafted gear, if not more powerful (stick another not-useless effect on it if in doubt).
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    I think this idea should be given special considerations by the devs. Avtually, this would make crafting as well as the now ongoing special sales week a success for both players and sales from Turbine shop!
    It could be done and still incorporate all of the existing ingredient schemes (GS, Cannith crystals, etc). Would make the Dev's lives so much easier.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    No, it was ever thus, except I think the top level is plus 15 -potential- I assume that's what you are talking about.

    I think its such a wasted opportunity in a game littered with wasted opportunities, cannith crafting could be a truly great system, and the bulk of the work and systems are already in place, but no-one at turbine can be bothered with it.

    My guess why is that it is not shiny enough both for players and some internal dev kudos/ reasons turbine brownie point reasons.

    Being able to slap mastercraftsmanship on challenge items is good but the list of what is good about Cannith crafting is not very long
    I like being able to craft my own ML 9 +6 items and lowbie armour but then I still have a bucket load of large and medium guild slot items. If you don't have those then its all pretty much below average at best.

    Because destroyer of loot didn't like guild slot items because he hadn't thought of them, and that they, and the gems were not on sale in the store they were sidelined, and with them went one of the major attractions of Cannith crafting.

    In some ways Cannith crafting, its hurried, incomplete implementation, development, bug history, path and eventual forced redundancy and the reasons for all the aforementioned are a perfect encapsulation of a very large proportion of Turbines many failures.

    I really wish they would do more with crafting also. It is time.


    But despite the neglect over the last year or so, I don't think crafting is completely useless at all. With the new augment slots, crafting actually became more worthwhile for me at levels 12-20ish. Being able to slot two augments on a crafted item is pretty sweet.

    I rarely use the guild slotted items after level 12 now.

  15. #15
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    Oh yeah, and adding an augment slot to an item should not increase it's ML. Any increase in the ML should depend on what augment you put in it.

    And bring back guild slots, make them craftable, add additional guild augment options, and make them stack with all other effects. You'll be doing a service to crafting and guilds at the same time.

    And I want to be able to craft or purchase Jewellers Kits ingame. Make them expensive to craft or purchase by all means.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    I think the DDO crafting systems need to all be flattened. Make a new overall system that uses FEATS to unlock crafting (like in real D&D), combined with ingredients of varied rarity that are used in much the same way as we use them now (i.e. you need to have N of X ingredient, N of Y, a weapon blank, and the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). Hell, I think keeping the XP deficit system from PnP would be perfect for DDO as well, have the items cost XP based on how many +N the enchantment(s) is, scale it up fast (like double the previous +'s cost, starting at 2000xp). So a level 28 toon with the necessary crafting feats (mind you, craft epic arms and armor would need to be a feat as well) can craft a very powerful item but it'll cost em a motherload of XP that they'll have to re-earn in order to craft again.
    So basically make it a system that uses up a character slot for a crafter bot and then make players waste a bunch of time piking on it in order to get the "motherload of XP" needed? While that sort of system might work in a PnP static group where they could be expected to share the crafting love. Who would ever want a character that used a bunch of their feats for crafting in a PUG?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So basically make it a system that uses up a character slot for a crafter bot and then make players waste a bunch of time piking on it in order to get the "motherload of XP" needed? While that sort of system might work in a PnP static group where they could be expected to share the crafting love. Who would ever want a character that used a bunch of their feats for crafting in a PUG?
    Nobody would, it's up to the player if they wanna create a maxxed out Gimp crafter or just splash some crafting feats in on certain toons. If the leader of the PUG doesn't want the gimped crafter in their group, then they just don't let them in. I don't understand why you present that as some sort of "challenge" to overcome. Yes, maxxed crafting toons will be gimps, yes you will have to use one to get the best crafted loot, yes, it will not be easy for you to earn back those lost XP, that is why it is called a price.

    I wrote up an expanded version of my idea:

    New Feats:

    Brew Potion
    Craft Magic Arms and Armor
    Craft Scepter
    Craft Staff
    Craft Wand
    Craft Wondrous Item
    Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor
    Craft Epic Scepter
    Craft Epic Staff
    Craft Epic Wondrous Item
    Scribe Scroll (will need to create scroll blanks for levels 1-9)

    Mechanism:

    Cannith Ingredients used for all but Potions.
    Potions would need an ingredient table of their own, existing collectibles could be converted to potion ingredients.

    The Crafter needs to have a spell or spell-like ability that equates to the enchantment(s) being infused. For example: Anyone can add a weapon "plus" using the proper crystal and a crafting bench/altar/whatever. To add, say, Flaming, you need to be able to cast a spell/spell-like ability that satisfies the Flaming requirement (any low level fire spell would suffice) AND they need the combined crystal from the ingredients.

    Then the enchantment is only capable of setting a max enchantment ranking based on character level (like for Speed XV, you'd need to be level 30, for Flaming V you would also need to be level 30 as Flaming would hash out at 1/6th player level rounded up and Speed would hash out at 1/2 player level rounded up. Other effects/enchantments would need to have their max values determined in relation to character level). HOWEVER, a scroll can be used by the Crafter for the magic spell portion but can only max out at the scroll's level or the Crafter's max caster level in relation to that scroll (to account for Wand/Scroll mastery boosts - allows a toon with a high UMD to be a competent Enchanter but not able to reach max potential like a dedicated caster could).

    Current mechanisms for grinding out an extra "plus" to the item, lowering it's min level or whatever, would remain unchanged. Additionally, certain races/classes, could spend Enhancement points to improve their crafting abilities within certain crafting disciplines. These would obviously need to be considered but would blend well with existing enhancement system.

    Remove any sort of "power levels" to ingredients and make the potential based on crafter's character level.

    Make it impossible to craft an augment slot, enforcing that blanks with augment slots are rare and valuable in the right hands.

    Make it possible to craft augments. No reason the existing Cannith ingredients/crystals method couldn't be used. Would need to introduce a new item blank - the unfinished augment.

    Crafting costs XP, here's the table:

    Item Level XP Cost
    -----------------------------
    1 2000
    2 4000
    3 8000
    4 16000
    5 32000
    6 64000
    7 128000
    8 256000
    9 512000
    10 1024000
    11 2048000
    12 4096000
    13 8192000
    14 16384000
    15 32768000

    That's right, crafting a maxxed out item level 15 weapon will cost you 33 million XP, that you lose, and have to re-earn. On the plus side, you have a reason to grind out more Epic Destiny XP now. Racial/Class/Item/PrE bonuses to crafted level do NOT affect XP cost (and enable crafted potentials beyond +15).

    Certain classes won't really be able to craft or will be far from ideal at it, the ones that can craft will need to choose between the crafting feats and combat/use feats. It will be very difficult to have a universal crafting character due to the cost in feats to craft everything as well as certain effects (like Holy for example) being only enchantable by an appropriate class (anyone that can cast Holy Smite). A pure crafting character would effectively be a huge gimp in play, but that's to be expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    And I want to be able to craft or purchase Jewellers Kits ingame. Make them expensive to craft or purchase by all means.
    60 lightning split soarwood, 100 luminescent dust and 1000 necromantic gems is about what you can expect the cost of something like this to be. Having them available in game on demand would basically counter the whole reason they were developed.

  19. #19
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    I do think the crafting system needs an update to be more current and applicable. I see many crafted items to offer slots, but that is pretty much it. Some skill or effect that is nice to have on an item with a slot or two for augments you can't readily slot.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    60 lightning split soarwood, 100 luminescent dust and 1000 necromantic gems is about what you can expect the cost of something like this to be. Having them available in game on demand would basically counter the whole reason they were developed.
    Sensible suggestions only

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