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  1. #1
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Default Are you sure it would be healthy for the game if AC was effective in Epic Elite?

    Some players demand changes to the AC curve to actually make it meaningful in Epic Elite but we can't turn our heads from the ugly parts. Nobody will complain if you can tank a midlevel boss using only your Shield and Starter Pots of Cure Light Wounds but in Epic Elite mobs hit excessively hard, the very concept of nullifying all this damage is by itself broken.

    PRR for example has an ideal concept, you're still taking damage but you're reducing it and it requires effort to get high values (ibf monks). Same goes for DR/-.
    Dodge gives us low values by default (until Monks come into play, always Monks)
    Incorporeality is almost a trophy for some builds although accessible for everyone but as a mere 10% in some gear. Well... monks.

    Judging from Heroic content, getting 20% to 30% defense from AC would be ideal but judging from how much effort it is required to get over-the-top AC values it becomes almost an insult. I couldn't bear seeing my effort from multiples lives or better yet Epic Lives (4200 comm there we go again) turned into a 20% chance. However any more than this and it becomes a problem. Unfortunately cautiousness backfires and anyone without extremely high dedication to AC would get even lower numbers, being in fact useless.

    If a suggestion was to be done I'd say we should get PRR and Dodge bonuses for achieving some AC thresholds, in this case even if you couldn't significantly increase your defenses at epic levels you'd still get advantages for every AC point and it would encourage tanks and S&B builds.

  2. #2
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Some players demand changes to the AC curve to actually make it meaningful in Epic Elite but we can't turn our heads from the ugly parts. Nobody will complain if you can tank a midlevel boss using only your Shield and Starter Pots of Cure Light Wounds but in Epic Elite mobs hit excessively hard, the very concept of nullifying all this damage is by itself broken.

    PRR for example has an ideal concept, you're still taking damage but you're reducing it and it requires effort to get high values (ibf monks). Same goes for DR/-.
    Dodge gives us low values by default (until Monks come into play, always Monks)
    Incorporeality is almost a trophy for some builds although accessible for everyone but as a mere 10% in some gear. Well... monks.

    Judging from Heroic content, getting 20% to 30% defense from AC would be ideal but judging from how much effort it is required to get over-the-top AC values it becomes almost an insult. I couldn't bear seeing my effort from multiples lives or better yet Epic Lives (4200 comm there we go again) turned into a 20% chance. However any more than this and it becomes a problem. Unfortunately cautiousness backfires and anyone without extremely high dedication to AC would get even lower numbers, being in fact useless.

    If a suggestion was to be done I'd say we should get PRR and Dodge bonuses for achieving some AC thresholds, in this case even if you couldn't significantly increase your defenses at epic levels you'd still get advantages for every AC point and it would encourage tanks and S&B builds.
    Many builds do just fine with no AC whatsoever so yes, I think that allowing usable AC, especially for heavy armor and shield bearers in EE would be a very good thing for the game. If done properly it won't make monkchers and casters who fight at range more powerful, but it will allow close combat players to see a glimpse of the survivability that ranged characters already have.

    Long story short, if those guys fighting at range already have a theoretical 5000 AC (because they never engage in combat to begin with, therefore never get hit) then why can't the guys up close get it too?
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  3. #3
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    am I sure it would be healthy for the game if AC was effective in EE? yes.

    but pajama wearers shouldn't have equivalent or better AC as heavy armor wearers.

    since AC is virtually meaningless, PRR, dodge, blurry, incorporeal, etc shouldn't be its replacement. they should be just another bonus to your defenses on top of AC.

    AC is another form of defense. if its not working the way it should than it needs to be fixed and worth something, even against the toughest mobs in the game.
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  4. #4
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Without a significant change in intimidate it doesn't matter anyway.
    You'll never have agro. Might as well be getting sneak attack damage.
    I'd say go back to the guaranteed attention of any monster in the area when using a sufficiently high intimidate. I mean why would you use it if you didn't want agro?

  5. #5
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Some players demand changes to the AC curve to actually make it meaningful in Epic Elite but we can't turn our heads from the ugly parts. Nobody will complain if you can tank a midlevel boss using only your Shield and Starter Pots of Cure Light Wounds but in Epic Elite mobs hit excessively hard, the very concept of nullifying all this damage is by itself broken.

    PRR for example has an ideal concept, you're still taking damage but you're reducing it and it requires effort to get high values (ibf monks). Same goes for DR/-.
    Dodge gives us low values by default (until Monks come into play, always Monks)
    Incorporeality is almost a trophy for some builds although accessible for everyone but as a mere 10% in some gear. Well... monks.

    Judging from Heroic content, getting 20% to 30% defense from AC would be ideal but judging from how much effort it is required to get over-the-top AC values it becomes almost an insult. I couldn't bear seeing my effort from multiples lives or better yet Epic Lives (4200 comm there we go again) turned into a 20% chance. However any more than this and it becomes a problem. Unfortunately cautiousness backfires and anyone without extremely high dedication to AC would get even lower numbers, being in fact useless.

    If a suggestion was to be done I'd say we should get PRR and Dodge bonuses for achieving some AC thresholds, in this case even if you couldn't significantly increase your defenses at epic levels you'd still get advantages for every AC point and it would encourage tanks and S&B builds.
    I would be okay with a 3 leg approach to defense if all three legs worked. PRR and Dodge are working mostly okay right now. AC works unless you run EE (but isn't needed on any other difficulty anyway.l)

    PRR can get you 30ish damage mitigation for a moderate investment (I'm sure monks can cheat it, but I'll ignore that for the moment.)
    Dodge can hit the low 20s, again for a moderate investment.

    IF I could get another 30ish % mitigation from AC (on EE) for a moderate investment, I would slot those things into my gear, feats, enhancements and destinies. As it is now, PRR, Dodge and DPS all still give a better return on investment than AC does. Thus, I ignore AC and build for the others. Seriously, would anyone choose +10 AC over +10 deadly? Would you even take +50AC over +10 deadly? The other things I can do with gear and build are just better.

    Would it be game breaking... I doubt it. Even if you have 30%prr, 30%AC and 20% dodge you still take 39% of incoming damage. A tank who invests heavily and trades DPS (because what else can a tank trade? Not saves and defenses...) could push that higher. Would it be game breaking if a spec'd tank pushed down to only taking 25% or even down to 20%? Again, I doubt it. And this ignores spell damage anyway.

    Second reason its not game breaking is that we have learned to play without tanks. Thus its unlikely that anyone would bother because the fights don't need them. Why use an intimi-tank and healer model when you can just replace both slots with more damage and finish faster?

    Third reason is that to push up all the defenses, DPS will suffer and intimidate is not the guarantee it once way. The defensive character may live forever, but won't be near as much killing.

    Fourth reason, to really get high AC you going to lose dodge. (Again I'm pretending monks don't exist because there can be not rational discussion of balance in context with them right now. And,yes, my next build coming up has 6 monk in it for that reason.)

    Even on a sneak attack build, bluff and -threat gen is going to be more useful so you can continue to get sneak attack damage. If you need AC, then you're not getting your damage.... and then the AC is not game breaking...

    How much should it cost to get there? I'm honestly not sure. My plate wearing, tower shield using cleric with nothing better to do with his gear slots hits 100AC in the current system. So he is using the following slots:
    armor
    shield
    protection item (blue slot)
    natural armor item (green slot)
    and bonuses from unyielding sentinel.

    Heavy armor comes at the cost of dodge and evasion on some builds. Overall I'd say the AC investment for this character was between light and moderate. So what would need to be discussed is how much mitigation should this sort of investment yield in EE? 20%? More? Less? If 20 (just spitballing here) is the right number, then maybe 120-150 would be the target for 30%? I realize that this is the opposite of diminishing returns, but it the more AC you already have, the harder it is to improve upon it. Maybe each 50 points of AC is worth about 10% miss chance? Or 0.2% miss per point of AC. Again, spitballing...

    Bottom line, no, I don't think meaningful AC along with the other defenses would break the game.
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  6. #6
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    I don't see why not. The only way to get the ac to be a wall is by nearly sacrificing dmg is every way. So while the tank will be the tank, it's gonna be as if he's not even hitting the monster anyway with that sad dmg compared to the hundreds of thousands of hp.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Yes, if my character is EE viable, everything it is built for should be effective in EE. People who build for AC right now are caught in the same game design hilarity that DC casters were caught in circa 2009-2010. What they built for works awesome until they get to the most difficult game setting, and then it like someone flipped a switch and turned that ability they built for off.

    Note that "effective" does not mean "never gets hit". What they need to do is make the "at level chance" scale to the quest level and not to the CR of the mob, which has reached hilarious numbers that will not allow AC to work because its effectiveness is calculated on a level differential.

  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    Without a significant change in intimidate it doesn't matter anyway.
    You'll never have agro. Might as well be getting sneak attack damage.
    I'd say go back to the guaranteed attention of any monster in the area when using a sufficiently high intimidate. I mean why would you use it if you didn't want agro?
    This is not true. Players who want aggro can enhance threat generation quite a bit, and players who dont can enhance threat to be quite a bit lower. Its not a 1 to 1 scale based on DPS only.

  9. #9
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Im never 100% sure about anythung. Or am I?
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  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    AC actually working as things are now would push monks into the realm of god-mode.

    The issue isn't that AC doesn't work per se . . . it's that "tanks" (defender builds) do not get nearly enough "damage mitigation" to rationalize the offense they sacrifice.

  11. #11
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is not true. Players who want aggro can enhance threat generation quite a bit, and players who dont can enhance threat to be quite a bit lower. Its not a 1 to 1 scale based on DPS only.
    I've played many tanks. Playing one now actually.
    There is no way you're going to get a threat gen high enough to compete for agro AND keep your AC high.
    +30% here or there is nothing on EE. Even +1000% does very little when you hit like a angry little girl.

  12. #12
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    I dont know why they would bother. As soon as they make it so that AC or even damage mit works on tanks everyone will come here and whiz and moan about how OP the new heavies are and they need to be nerfed. Woe is me..woooooooe is me.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I dont know why they would bother. As soon as they make it so that AC or even damage mit works on tanks everyone will come here and whiz and moan about how OP the new heavies are and they need to be nerfed. Woe is me..woooooooe is me.
    When did a non-ignorant person EVER post that tanks were over-powered?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    When did a non-ignorant person EVER post that tanks were over-powered?
    I found one post but it's pretty old.

    PolishGeneralFourStarz posted in 1939:

    "These tanks are too OP. The germans are just running over the horses. This isn't balanced and better be fixed by the next patch."

    I assume he rage quit because I can't find any newer posts.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    When did a non-ignorant person EVER post that tanks were over-powered?
    I second this question if 20-30% mitigation via AC is going to break this game then apparently it's worse off than I thought.

    Bowserkoopa,

    DDO where your combat options are slug it out with a 200k hp mob head to head and hope your 1k hp's outlast his, or grab a bow and run in circles.

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  16. #16
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    When did a non-ignorant person EVER post that tanks were over-powered?
    Nah nah not now I mean if they did do any change to make PRR or AC effective top end. God knows they are not.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    I've played many tanks. Playing one now actually.
    There is no way you're going to get a threat gen high enough to compete for agro AND keep your AC high.
    +30% here or there is nothing on EE. Even +1000% does very little when you hit like a angry little girl.
    Never had an issue with threat before, wouldnt have an issue with that now if AC worked. The reason it doesnt work is not an inability to get high values. The reason it doesnt work is because miss chance calc scales based on level differential and the CR of the mobs is hilarious, since Turbine equates increasing difficulty with stat inflation as a direct correlation.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    I found one post but it's pretty old.

    PolishGeneralFourStarz posted in 1939:

    "These tanks are too OP. The germans are just running over the horses. This isn't balanced and better be fixed by the next patch."

    I assume he rage quit because I can't find any newer posts.
    They opened the quest in EN.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    They opened the quest in EN.
    LOLZ really? They did EN Poland and then tried EE America and EE Russia? Fail.

  20. #20
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    LOLZ really? They did EN Poland and then tried EE America and EE Russia? Fail.
    With no cold resist.

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