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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    I dont care. 1st.. 30th... 512th...

    there isnt a quest in the game where there is a trap that must be disabled in order to complete the quest.

    a first lifer free to play isnt going to be worried about an extra 500 xp from traps...
    There is very little I worry about regarding traps nowadays, even on a low-reflex non-evasion character. I just time them.

    My first couple lives, however, I was completely at the mercy of trappers. Heck, even my evasion alts had issues with traps on elite runs. I remember on my first life being completely stymied by the acid jets in Swiped Signet, if you can believe it. I barely can myself, since it's so trivially easy to drink a jump pot and jump right over them.

    New players do not have game knowledge, and the two main ways to deal with traps are 1) have a trapper or 2) have game knowledge. I'm not including high reflex evasion alts, because they do not actually have to deal with traps at all.

  2. #102
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    So basically your stance is that no matter what, no matter how badly a PC is built, no matter if they don't want to group with people, everyone should be able to complete every quest?
    not what i said. i said there is no reason why there shouldn't be rogue hires for plat in game. there is only 1 reason why the heroic rogues are available in the store and we all should know the reason why that is.

  3. #103
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    not what i said. i said there is no reason why there shouldn't be rogue hires for plat in game. there is only 1 reason why the heroic rogues are available in the store and we all should know the reason why that is.
    No argument here. DDO has made a pay to win model. I don't like it but it is what it is. So, if a player refuses to learn how to play to win then they must pay. It's where my content, bug fixes, etc come from, people who pay for convenience. I mean we aren't talking about soloing EE content on a first life naked toon here. We are talking level 8 quests on Norm. Players somehow figured out for years before we had hirelings how to either bypass or render traps a non issue. I get that the game has moved to make it more solo friendly but at some point a person may have to step back and reevaluate that maybe they may be doing something wrong.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

  4. #104

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    How about a compromise: Add rogue hires to the plat vendors for levels 1 to 8 only, or something like that? I agree that traps are an early barrier for new player retention, but also see the merit of the other side of the argument. Maybe just include enough rogue hires for plat to retain new players long enough to get hooked on the game?

  5. #105
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    How about a compromise: Add rogue hires to the plat vendors for levels 1 to 8 only, or something like that? I agree that traps are an early barrier for new player retention, but also see the merit of the other side of the argument. Maybe just include enough rogue hires for plat to retain new players long enough to get hooked on the game?
    I see your point but honestly even if someone is new to the game they should have acquired the favor for 40 TP.

    People see posts like mine and think 'elitist jerk'. I'm fine with that. The game used to be much harder and to be honest, before it went F2P, it was dying. They went back to the drawing board and came back with easy buttons. I am not against those if the person pays for them. No one is required to pay to play this game. However, if a person wishes to make the game easier, they should have to pay something into it. It cost money to develop hirelings. It cost money to make the DDO store. They spent money to make money. Now people believe they should be given free passes in quests. Well, I don't think that's good for players, good for the game or good for the longevity we all hope this game continues to have.

    Every single player who has ever played this game had to either learn how to play or they quit. New, old, doesn't matter, we all had a learning curve. I remember my first big learning moment. I started playing a cleric because I figured I could stand in the back, watch other players and get a feel for the game. The longer I played the harder it was for me to keep up. I was having all sorts of trouble trying to keep people healed and this was way before you ever saw BYOH type LFM's.

    Finally someone had enough. Here's the conversation:

    Him: Dude, *** is your problem?
    Me:I don't know, having trouble because of having to switch between weapons, potions, scrolls and healing?
    Him: Huh?
    Me: With only one hotbar I try to scroll with my mouse wheel as fast as I can but I can't keep it straight.
    Him: You do know you can have more than one hotbar, right?
    Me: How?
    Him: Jesus.....see that arrow on the hotbar? Click it.
    Me: HOLY SHI.......

    I learned something that day that made me a better player and from that point on I loved playing the game. Before that I was constantly frustrated and felt like I kept letting everyone down. Point being is we all start somewhere, it's never easy for anyone, but we learn through our mistakes and we get a sense of accomplishment when we figure these things out....or when the entire party laughs at our noobishness. Either way, DDO has set up a system where you don't have to learn, you can build horrible characters and still be successful in spite of it. But if you do, you have to stick a coin the slot.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

  6. #106
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    I see your point but honestly even if someone is new to the game they should have acquired the favor for 40 TP.

    People see posts like mine and think 'elitist jerk'. I'm fine with that. The game used to be much harder and to be honest, before it went F2P, it was dying. They went back to the drawing board and came back with easy buttons. I am not against those if the person pays for them. No one is required to pay to play this game. However, if a person wishes to make the game easier, they should have to pay something into it. It cost money to develop hirelings. It cost money to make the DDO store. They spent money to make money. Now people believe they should be given free passes in quests. Well, I don't think that's good for players, good for the game or good for the longevity we all hope this game continues to have.

    Every single player who has ever played this game had to either learn how to play or they quit. New, old, doesn't matter, we all had a learning curve. I remember my first big learning moment. I started playing a cleric because I figured I could stand in the back, watch other players and get a feel for the game. The longer I played the harder it was for me to keep up. I was having all sorts of trouble trying to keep people healed and this was way before you ever saw BYOH type LFM's.

    Finally someone had enough. Here's the conversation:

    Him: Dude, *** is your problem?
    Me:I don't know, having trouble because of having to switch between weapons, potions, scrolls and healing?
    Him: Huh?
    Me: With only one hotbar I try to scroll with my mouse wheel as fast as I can but I can't keep it straight.
    Him: You do know you can have more than one hotbar, right?
    Me: How?
    Him: Jesus.....see that arrow on the hotbar? Click it.
    Me: HOLY SHI.......

    I learned something that day that made me a better player and from that point on I loved playing the game. Before that I was constantly frustrated and felt like I kept letting everyone down. Point being is we all start somewhere, it's never easy for anyone, but we learn through our mistakes and we get a sense of accomplishment when we figure these things out....or when the entire party laughs at our noobishness. Either way, DDO has set up a system where you don't have to learn, you can build horrible characters and still be successful in spite of it. But if you do, you have to stick a coin the slot.
    you should be happy to hear that hirelings are supposed to be on the table for improvement sometime down the road here according to Producer Rowan.

    at one time FVS were store only. now you can buy them from vendors in game too.

    the way i see it, whats the difference between a dumb dumb rogue hire that disables the traps, finds the secret doors and picks locks for you and a dumb dumb cleric hire that buffs you (usually just 1, if any), some can give you DVs for more blue bar fun and keeps you healed while you run forward and kill without much worry for your red bar? what Turbine is saying to me is that rogue hires are more profitable for a convenience item by keeping them sold in the store. in all the pug groups i have ever been in since 2009, only 2 times has someone summoned a rogue. if a hire is summoned its 99% of the time a cleric/FVS. i meet very few people that actually buy rogue hires because they think it slows them down, the extra xp isn't worth it and most times there is nothing worth it behind those secret doors.

    i honestly don't see much of a difference having a rogue hire in your group or having a real live rogue player in your group and how that can affect the learning curve. the biggest problem with the learning curve in DDO is not making it through traps, its being self sufficient and game knowledge. i think you are confusing learning curve with learning how to set up hot bars and hot keys, which happens to everyone when they are new. i went through the same thing myself until someone told me i could have more than 1 hot bar, i can drag stuff to the hot bar and that i will never have enough AP to get everything on the enhancement list.

    player retention is a problem, it seems to me. im a believer that in the low levels it should be a cake walk for veterans and sorta difficult for new players. its more important that they start off trying to figure how to play and get them hooked into liking DDO enough to invest in the game. i think the low levels are just about right with quests like Irestone Inlet and Proof is in the Poison as random quests in the low level range that start to become challenging. by level 8 it should be a steady increase in challenge. by this point they should be getting a better handle on the game and learning to figure out alternative solutions on how to get past traps if there is no trapper.

  7. #107
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Actually I would happy to hear the entire hireling system would be moved to the DDO store. Again, hirelings are not necessary, just a convenience. I think people should pay for that convenience with money. Just a different opinion on the subject and obviously the devs feel more your way then mine. The only exception to this are hireling clerics. One of the biggest gripes vets have with new players is they let themselves die because they don't carry pots. It annoys me when someone joins my group and immediately pops a cleric, but at least it gives them a slightly better way to stay healed and save some plat. I get it. But all a hireling rogue is going to do is take away from one of the core elements of the game (to me). Some quests are designed for balanced parties, says so when you zone into a quest, big writing and all. If you choose not have a balanced party then you need to be prepared to try and outsmart the quest. Paying plat to render a quest harmless is just silly IMO.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    I see your point but honestly even if someone is new to the game they should have acquired the favor for 40 TP.
    When I was a new player, I spent 30+ minutes in every harbor quest. 40 TP every other quest was unthinkable. I would never have spent TP on them, and I didn't. Instead, on my non-trappers I pugged, waiting for trappers to join.

    With the state of the pug scene as it is now, I may have given up.

    (Okay, maybe not 30+ minutes in Bringing the Light, but upwards of an hour in many of them. Like Smuggler's Warehouse, Butcher's Path, etc...)

  9. #109
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    I think people should pay for that convenience with money.
    So your answer is learn-to-not-suck or pay-to-not-suck?

    As long as you are consistent and say that ALL hires should be store bought I guess I can't fault you. I just disagree. Your stance is basically "everyone should learn to play Mario or they are doing it wrong".

    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    Some quests are designed for balanced parties, says so when you zone into a quest, big writing and all. If you choose not have a balanced party then you need to be prepared to try and outsmart the quest. Paying plat to render a quest harmless is just silly IMO.
    The OP's long story in a nutshell is:

    1. He does not have the Mario skills needed to avoid traps.
    2. He does not PUG due to his self-admitted lack of playing skills that others have.
    3. Since you NEED a balanced party for some quests, he would like to hire a rogue for plat, just like you can hire a cleric.

  10. #110
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Exactly Fedora. You have stated before 'it's just a game'. I agree and thinking that possibly a person may want to learn how to play the game is somehow elitist? You think my stance is learn how to play the game or pay not to play the game? YES. Those Mario skills are important. If you don't have Mario skills you can make an evasion toon that doesn't need them. Or a max CON toon that doesn't need them. Or join a group of like minded players so you don't need them. If you flatly refuse to use any of the resources available do I think we need more free resources? No. Yes, I do think that you either need to learn how to play this game, like every other game designed since the history of games or at least pay not to have to learn.

    Saying this game is F2P is a misnomer. It's free to try. You can play it for free if you learn the nuances of the game, how favor/TP work and even still it would be hard to keep it completely free. If Turbine has seen a way to make a profit on it then so be it. They don't make money, we don't have a game, it's as simple as that. As discussed, he could easily put in one rogue level, more CON, better equipment, useful evasion, the list goes on and on. If you don't want to use any of the free tools out there then yes, I think you should pay. I as a VIP have bought Epic Hearts. I could continue to farm comms but I pay for the convenience to not have to. Do I think they should be sold for plat even though it would benefit me? No.

    Ellis, it's good you spent your time in the quests. However you did not need a rogue hireling to complete any of them. Not by a long shot. Sure, maybe you built an abomination, walked into a trap and died. But hopefully you learned where the trap was, went back in and circumvented it . New players shouldn't be able to complete quests the first time through in every quest. How boring would that be? This is a game that especially to new players have extreme depth and complexity. It's what brings people here. This is not NWO or WOW where you can log on and play for days or weeks before ever dying for the first time. You can easily build a bad PC, you can walk into a trap, you could fall off the walkway that runs from the Korthos zone in point up to the Harbor. When the game went f2p there was a very long suggestion thread about putting handrails on that ramp. I get that sometimes what may seem simple to us may seem extremely difficult to others. But as someone who would like to see this game not just continue but progress I realize that takes money.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

  11. #111
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    Wow lots of people seem to forget, when they played through these quests the first time there were actually low level people to group with. Even with a smaller server population, that population was centered around lvl 8 not lvl 20.
    Try getting a group for proof is in the poison now (and yeah you solo that with a 50 hp first life character and no hireling, not to mention no idea of how the quest works and you can't afford tons of heal pots yet).

    Seriously, move the entire thing to the marketplace? Yeah that will ensure every new player quits. None will be able to solo far enough to stick with the game, most would quit by about level 4. The few brave enough to group and lucky enough to find a group. They tend to get verbally abused by the older players. So the new players end up soloing or quitting.
    Let's make soloing impossible for them, sounds like a solid business plan.

    There should at least be rogues for pp that can handle hard quest. If you want a rogue that can do elite quests, then make that pay. There is a reason WoW gives a trial period, people don't want to pay before they find out if they like a game.
    Last edited by doawithlife; 02-13-2014 at 10:11 AM.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    New players shouldn't be able to complete quests the first time through in every quest.
    Tell me, which quests were you unable to complete your first time through?

  13. #113
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Tell me, which quests were you unable to complete your first time through?
    It was many moons ago but pretty much all of them. There was no quest scaling so as a cleric I zoned into a quest, saw 4 or 5 mobs who promptly ran over and beat me to death. I learned real quick to group. Awesome part was there was also XP debt (don't remember how it panned out) so you not only got beat to death but then you had to either sit in a tavern while it SLOWLY returned back to base or run the next quest for basically no XP. In 2006 the game was not forgiving in the least. I can see why people left it then. But to say you should be able to buy for plat a way to bypass traps on Norm just doesn't sit right with me. It's not an elitist view. This is a game that people should want to learn to play. I don't see it as any different than if someone couldn't shoot someone playing Halo then asking for everyone to be given nerf guns except for him. Traps are part of the game and people should want to learn how to either use one of the 1000 ways to get by or disarm them themselves.

    And to doa, people who verbally abuse new players also verbally abuse old players. Anyone who throws up a LFM for anything, especially anything less than level 10 or so should know what the party makeup will be. A dbag is a dbag no matter which way you put it. I sometimes (when I used to heroic TR) would put up LFM's for things like Gwyland's, Stormcleave, etc not because I needed the help but because it was a break in the monotony to show players around. I still have a lvl 4 FVS who has nothing but wands, pots, plat etc to pass out to new players back when I used to try and help Clay with the mentoring program. I personally don't see a problem with losing 10% XP in a quest that gives very little to begin with.

    I don't think a rogue hireling is the reason people are quitting the game.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

  14. #114
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    So your answer is learn-to-not-suck or pay-to-not-suck?

    As long as you are consistent and say that ALL hires should be store bought I guess I can't fault you. I just disagree. Your stance is basically "everyone should learn to play Mario or they are doing it wrong".



    The OP's long story in a nutshell is:

    1. He does not have the Mario skills needed to avoid traps.
    2. He does not PUG due to his self-admitted lack of playing skills that others have.
    3. Since you NEED a balanced party for some quests, he would like to hire a rogue for plat, just like you can hire a cleric.
    I would rather they were removed entirely but a move to store would be enough I supose

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  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggin View Post
    It was many moons ago but pretty much all of them. There was no quest scaling so as a cleric I zoned into a quest, saw 4 or 5 mobs who promptly ran over and beat me to death. I learned real quick to group.
    That was a luxury you had. Many new players have trouble finding groups nowadays, especially if they need specific roles filled in that group. (eg: A trapper.)

    I don't think a rogue hireling is the reason people are quitting the game.
    I don't understand why you don't see the connection. It's not the direct cause, but it contributes:

    - New player tries a quest, dies in a trap.
    - They put up an LFM to try and group for that quest, nobody joins.
    - They look for rogue hires at the vendors but can't find any.
    - They wait a little longer with that LFM, then give up and write that quest off as unplayable.
    - Lather, rinse, repeat...wow that's a lot of unplayable quests, or at best a LOT of time waiting around hoping for a trapper to join my LFM. This game isn't really playable.
    - At least I didn't spend any money. Let's see what other free games are out there, maybe that were produced THIS decade.

    What I'm saying is get them hooked before they get to that last step. I get that your ego is wrapped up in how much better you are than new players, but your viewpoint is not good for the game's viability.

  16. #116
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That was a luxury you had. Many new players have trouble finding groups nowadays, especially if they need specific roles filled in that group. (eg: A trapper.)

    I don't understand why you don't see the connection. It's not the direct cause, but it contributes:

    - New player tries a quest, dies in a trap.
    - They put up an LFM to try and group for that quest, nobody joins.
    - They look for rogue hires at the vendors but can't find any.
    - They wait a little longer with that LFM, then give up and write that quest off as unplayable.
    - Lather, rinse, repeat...wow that's a lot of unplayable quests, or at best a LOT of time waiting around hoping for a trapper to join my LFM. This game isn't really playable.
    - At least I didn't spend any money. Let's see what other free games are out there, maybe that were produced THIS decade.

    What I'm saying is get them hooked before they get to that last step. I get that your ego is wrapped up in how much better you are than new players, but your viewpoint is not good for the game's viability.
    I don't have an ego about how much better than new players I am. And since you have no idea what the server population was back in 2006 you have no way of knowing how easy it was or wasn't it was to find a group. Obviously you lack any sort of reading comprehension so I'll point it out......again. I played a CLERIC. For low level new players, I played a very desirable class to have in a party. Everyone, from then until now, is always happy to have a cleric in party. Feel free to look at your LFM's and see how many clerics or fvs there are who can't find groups. The OP could easily make a cleric with rogue levels and he would have to go anonymous in 15 seconds due to the sheer volume of party requests.

    Like any game you need to learn how to play it. If this were chess, you would need to learn strategy and how the pieces move. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean you should move all the pieces like queens. If this were Connect 4 and you could only connect 2 would we then also have to change the game? Traps are part of the game, along with strategy, killing mobs, gear, and 20 other facets. You make it sound as if no one but completionists can survive a trap on norm.

    If a new player for whatever reasons decides to play a class no one likes to group with (a new ranged player), doesn't want to learn how to avoid traps, doesn't want to build a decent toon do we then need to pull revenue out of the games pocket to support that? No thanks. Here's another small hint. People who refuse to learn how to play and build crappy toons don't stick around and drop $500 on it. They play as much free content as they can and move on. If you can navigate to the forums to complain that 'trapz iz hard' you can also spend another 10 minutes researching how to build a PC that makes 99% of traps null and void. But oh no, we couldn't possibly think that.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

  17. #117
    Community Member bruener's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.
    completed by you without a rogue or completed my an inexperienced first lifer? there is a difference and i believe the OP is talking about new peeps. if we are talking about vets then most likely we can get around most of them. if we are talking about new people then there are dozens that would be awfully frustrating not to have one. do you remember your first run thru Redfang all those years ago? yikes mine was ugly to say the least lol.

    I see no reason not to have rogues for hire with plat. we have clerics/fvs hires for plat. to me that makes the game much easier than a rogue hire does. but im sure the healer hires were added to keep ppl around cause getting one to join, that will actually heal someone else these days, is a time consuming PITA.
    Last edited by bruener; 02-14-2014 at 07:54 AM.
    Chances are I posted this reply to your thread and won't be checking back. If you have a comment that you think I must see then a PM would be in order.

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    I think there should be 1 of EVERY class in pure for both Plat and TP. The plat ones would be so-so while the tp ones would be excellent. Sounds like a simple easy way of doing hirelings that would help Turbine make money, get people addicted to plat ones at first and then when they are annoyed at say a plat rogue for occasionally blowing a box on later levels and higher difficulty to slowly wean them into tp hirelings.

  19. #119
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Offering a rogue hireling for plat would kill any need for the class in party.
    That argument was lost years ago unfortunately. I recall understanding at that time that rogue hirelings were not available at all because of rogues being kicked out of or barred from parties due to lower hp, etc... That ship sailed many moons ago.

    Gone are the days where players actually learned how to play the game by trial and error. Everyone wants an easy button accessable to them. It's something that makes me very sad. Something in the game killing your character isn't a cause for review and improvement in survival skills. It's now a call to break out your wallet.

    Pretty sad state of affairs.
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  20. #120
    Community Member biggin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    That argument was lost years ago unfortunately. I recall understanding at that time that rogue hirelings were not available at all because of rogues being kicked out of or barred from parties due to lower hp, etc... That ship sailed many moons ago.

    Gone are the days where players actually learned how to play the game by trial and error. Everyone wants an easy button accessable to them. It's something that makes me very sad. Something in the game killing your character isn't a cause for review and improvement in survival skills. It's now a call to break out your wallet.

    Pretty sad state of affairs.
    What's even sadder to me is now people are complaining that they play a free game and instead of learning to play it OR pay for it now they want to not learn to play it AND not pay for it by having free rogue hires.
    Neg Ten, ruining your enjoyment of the game one quest at a time.

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