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  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Where they're getting hit for 300/shot while the monkcher can pew-pew kite while not being in melee range.
    There are automatic no saving throw methods of CC that make melee easier to play. If someone is taking insane levels of damage in melee they are doing it wrong. The only time this isnt really true is when tanking bosses, which is STILL done better on a character with monk levels in feety pajamas.

    Besides, most of the accomplishment videos where people are "soloing" EE quests start off with them invis running to the boss...



    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yup.

    This can really only be fixed with nerfs . . . and we all know Turbine will never nerf their Pay2Win monks.
    Its another tier in purchased character power.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If someone is taking insane levels of damage in melee they are doing it wrong.
    I didn't take you for an EH/EN guy.

  3. #43
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There are automatic no saving throw methods of CC that make melee easier to play. If someone is taking insane levels of damage in melee they are doing it wrong.
    Shssshhh!! I know this, but don't let facts ruin my d00m!

    But it still doesn't work as well as Pin+ PewPew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The only time this isnt really true is when tanking bosses, which is STILL done better on a character with monk levels in feety pajamas.
    Who can also pew pew.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool101 View Post
    I would rather see this direction than make major changes to enhancements again, even if it was limited to the core enhancements. There is just too much destructive potential in that route.
    I think there is room for both. The top end of the enhancement trees need to be worked on, for many trees the top end choices simply aren't as good as the entry level choices in other trees. The capstones in particular need to be improved (probably the lvl 18 core as well).

    Some other ideas...
    * Add pure class only PREs
    * Reduce gating costs for pure classes (making it easier to go deep in the trees they have)

    Address game balance that drives multi-classing:
    * Pure casters should have a HUGE advantage in DC/spell pan. I'm thinking a +2 bonus at level 18 and +3 more at 20. The counter argument that would trivialize already trivial content....
    * Make potion healing viable even in epic levels. The counter argument that pervasive healing would disrupt game balance is silly when BYOH is wide spread.
    * Boost PRR damage reduction. The min/maxers have concluded that pajamas are better than metal. Have armor/shield based PRR also give a set damage reduction that occurs AFTER the percentage damage multiplier. PRR from other sources such as stances, augs, enhancements wouldn't do this. PRR from actual armor should also give elemental resistances. A dedicated tank should be exceptional in what they can survive... today it just ain't so.

  5. #45
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This.

    Pre-ENH pass there were reasons to be pure everything. Now? it's a joke.

    Regarding fighters for example . . . you sacrifice NOTHING when you splash, you only gain.

    That's broken.
    The kensai double strike bonus is far more than "nothing".

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    The kensai double strike bonus is far more than "nothing".
    Double it.

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    The kensai double strike bonus is far more than "nothing".
    6 levels of monk, common on most melee/ranged fotm builds nowdays, gains that back with wind stance.

    Dont know why theyd be in wind stance though, since earth gives x1 crit and PRR without having to sacrifice evasion.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #48
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    6 levels of monk, common on most melee/ranged fotm builds nowdays, gains that back with wind stance.

    Dont know why theyd be in wind stance though, since earth gives x1 crit and PRR without having to sacrifice evasion.
    Don't forget Dance of Flowers - a DPS bonus the un-centered guy can never get.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    The kensai double strike bonus is far more than "nothing".
    Kensei capstone is actually quite good, one of the best in fact. It's just not enough to cancel evasion + 1.5[W] + 40 PRR + 1 multi on 19-20 + 2 free feats + ... you get the idea. For some other classes increasing the capstone may be enough. But for the non-self sufficient classes it won't be. When you can add a TON of self sufficiency by splashing for minimal sacrifice it's a no-brainer. What can levels 17-20 of fighter offer to counter the above from 2 monk + saves from 2 paladin? Nothing.

  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Don't forget Dance of Flowers - a DPS bonus the un-centered guy can never get.
    They should just call it "win". I took 6 levels of win, then activated the win stance, and twised win from GMOF.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #51
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    If there was an interest in making the two (multiclassing and staying pure class) more equitable, there would probably have to be some penalty imposed for multiclassing and a little boost to staying pure.

    But why bother?

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    If there was an interest in making the two (multiclassing and staying pure class) more equitable, there would probably have to be some penalty imposed for multiclassing and a little boost to staying pure.

    But why bother?
    More options. I dont even believe it has to literally equate to making pure better, but I do believe that alot of character power is centered around monk levels, pun fully intended. If everything else could be buffed to similar levels of character power that would also create more options.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    More options. I dont even believe it has to literally equate to making pure better, but I do believe that alot of character power is centered around monk levels, pun fully intended. If everything else could be buffed to similar levels of character power that would also create more options.
    Allowing characters to multi-class without penalty seems inherently broken to me, but if the entire playerbase enjoys it, then I can build an esos centered kensai with manyshot alongside the best of them. It just feels pretty broken.

  14. #54
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Allowing characters to multi-class without penalty seems inherently broken to me, but if the entire playerbase enjoys it, then I can build an esos centered kensai with manyshot alongside the best of them. It just feels pretty broken.
    This is mostly due to frontloading of enhancements. In the old system 18/2 and pure for barbarian were more popular because the big power came at level 18. There were alot of 12 level fighter splits because most of the character power was middle loaded.

    Nowdays just about everything is frontloaded with only needing 5 levels of the specific class to gain the benefit.

    If they cared about "balance" the enhancement pass would have been back loaded as far as character power is concerned. Multiclassing would still produce viable and maybe even optimal toons, but 18/2 and pure would also be aweosme.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #55
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    The trade-off between pure and multi-class SHOULD be depth (pure specialist) versus breadth (dabbler in a variety).

    Unfortunately, currently multi-class has both their appropriate greater breadth and ALSO greater depth.

    Should something be done? Yes.

    Should it be via single-class-only-uber-weapons? I don't think so, personally. Tweaking some enhancements, capstones, etc., would be a better approach, I think.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is mostly due to frontloading of enhancements.
    <snip>
    If they cared about "balance" the enhancement pass would have been back loaded as far as character power is concerned. Multiclassing would still produce viable and maybe even optimal toons, but 18/2 and pure would also be aweosme.
    Yes, that, exactly.

    Wow, that's like 2 or 3 times I've been in agreement with Chai in the past month! Is the apocalypse coming?
    Last edited by SirValentine; 01-08-2014 at 10:43 AM.

  16. #56
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Default Even out Skill pt Distribution would help alot

    they kinda are headin in pure class benefit direction,at least w the Fighter..the lvl 20 accessable ftr enhance is nice(lvl20 ftr access only)I dont see why skill pts are adjusted by class .Intell should be about it there(then a ftr could up a skill besides jump too)
    Mercyful Fate/ King Diamond link{ http://www.kingdiamondcoven.com } /''horror and moral terror are your friends'',Col. Kurtz/King Diamond Coven , lvl 79Ghallanda /43 Sarlona

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is mostly due to frontloading of enhancements. In the old system 18/2 and pure for barbarian were more popular because the big power came at level 18. There were alot of 12 level fighter splits because most of the character power was middle loaded.

    Nowdays just about everything is frontloaded with only needing 5 levels of the specific class to gain the benefit.

    If they cared about "balance" the enhancement pass would have been back loaded as far as character power is concerned. Multiclassing would still produce viable and maybe even optimal toons, but 18/2 and pure would also be aweosme.
    I agree. I liked the days of the 2 level splash, though we would've seen much less of it if evasion wasn't available until 6 or 9. It's not like evasion matters until mid-game anyway.

  18. #58
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Allowing characters to multi-class without penalty seems inherently broken to me, but if the entire playerbase enjoys it, then I can build an esos centered kensai with manyshot alongside the best of them. It just feels pretty broken.
    it is broken.

    Tough choices = good.

    No Brainers = bad.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Capstones are how you make pure more appealing.

    There will always be certain classes people want to splash because of free feats, or other cool powers people like.

    Rgrs, Mnks, Ftrs, Arties.... get lots of free feats.
    Pal2 or 3.
    Rog 2 for evasion...
    Brb1 for movement speeed boost.
    Maybe Druid to get an animal form.

    Those things will always appeal to people.

    Casters tend to remain pure for DCs mostly. Some for lvl 9 spells.

    I suppose you could also add most stuff at higher levels in some classes, but I think the only way to encourage staying true pure (and not a /splash 2) is to add stuff at lvl 20..... like better capstones.
    I would like to see the capstones boosted slightly. I have 3 primary characters that I spend the greater majority of my time playing and enjoy the most. One is a pure Assassin Rogue, the next is a pure fighter, the third is a multi class Rogue/Arti TR project that its final life is planned to be 13 rogue/6 arti 1 fighter.
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
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  20. #60
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    You know, sentient items (not just weapons kids) could have bonuses for both. MC gets a boost, while pure gets a different boost. Then they could have a huge variety of things like greensteel, but are class and combo specific. Not soo much combo (which would be sweet), but something like:
    Monk attunement: increase base damage by 0.5[W], 1[W], 1.5[W], 3[W] at monk levels 6, 12, 18, and 20. Add some incremental abilities at lvls 12, 18 and 20 as well.
    Barbarian attunement: Similar to monk, but add rage or barbarian boosts to dr or something in the same fashion.

    Then they could tie in a couple of specific abilities based on top tier enhancements and capstones. Like double the capstone and increase the tier 5 abilities a bit. This way everyone will want them. Pure just would get the bigger post since MC'ing is stronger than pure in the first place.

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