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  1. #1
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    Default Could now be the time to save the pure classes?

    We all know how the game is now driving you to multi class and anyone that plays a pure class build get's laughed at. But after reading the end of year dev letter, I got thinking. Sentinel weapons could be the way to make people think twice about multi classing.

    Ok, you have a Moncher and a pure AA standing next to each other. Both have Pinion and both blasting away. The Moncher "Hey, my burst DPS has just nuked down town Baghdad!", the AA "Wow, that wet paper bag took some beating..."

    Now, give them a Sentinel Bow, the Moncher "Huh, I farmed for this because?", the AA "Did I really just do that!?"

    Devs, link the Sentinel Weapons with the class level. Of course put on a ML for players to use them, but by linking to the class level you get people to think twice about character progression. By having 20 levels in a single class, you should be a total master of that class, and you should have the tools to prove you're a master, and you should be feared as a master.

    Think about it, it could bring a whole new element to the game. Imagine a pali with a sentinel sword and board "err, guys... Do you mind killing a few of these mobs that have surrounded me? Yes I know they aren't hurting me much, but I'm feeling claustrophobic here!". An Arti with a sentinel repeater which has constant endless fusilade with a rune arm to match. A wizard with a staff that makes God say "Jesus Christ, what the Hell just happened there!!!"

    Will this break the game? Not really, it gives more options to players on how they want their character to progress. Mutli-classes may cry about nothing waiting for them at end game, but it's the price you pay. Go ahead take 2 levels of rogue so you can do every trap in the game, but you're going to miss out on this.

  2. #2
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    I don't like the idea of making the best weapons or top tier weapons exclusive to pures. I'm not a fan of anything that locks players into a single build for them to be the best at a certain role. That's the problem with your suggestion, it would lock players into building pure if they wanted to use (insert top tier weapon here). The game thrives on flexibility and a wide array of builds, I wouldn't want to take that away.

    What the devs obviously need to do, which has been shouted a bazillion times on the forums (who knows if they have listened) is improve the capstones. Most of them are terrible, some of them are laughably awful. How the devs are not seeing this blows my mind.

  3. #3
    Community Member Ailaesaedol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I don't like the idea of making the best weapons or top tier weapons exclusive to pures. I'm not a fan of anything that locks players into a single build for them to be the best at a certain role. That's the problem with your suggestion, it would lock players into building pure if they wanted to use (insert top tier weapon here). The game thrives on flexibility and a wide array of builds, I wouldn't want to take that away.

    What the devs obviously need to do, which has been shouted a bazillion times on the forums (who knows if they have listened) is improve the capstones. Most of them are terrible, some of them are laughably awful. How the devs are not seeing this blows my mind.
    Divine Vengeance never stopped people from splashing on a pally, but had a nice bonus for pures: http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_Vengeance

    Be nice if a couple more weapons like this found there way into the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailaesaedol View Post
    Divine Vengeance never stopped people from splashing on a pally, but had a nice bonus for pures: http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_Vengeance

    Be nice if a couple more weapons like this found there way into the game.
    I agree, it's a cool weapon and I'd love to see more of that. I just don't want them to be best in slot.

  5. #5
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Meh.


    Pures should be for DC focues casters, and for new players learning the game.
    After learning basics, they should be encouraged to build better characters.
    Pure should give idiot proofness, and multi should give chance to make your character utterly worthless, or very good.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Sentinel weapons??

    or sentient?
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  7. #7
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    Ok, you've singled out capstones as the problem.So we'll use my first example of the Moncher and AA standing next to each other. How would you change the AA capstone so that it can be just as damaging as the Moncher? I can't see a way of doing this.

    And why not restrict the most powerful weapons for the masters of a class? You wouldn't give a Boeing 747 to some guy that's fairly good with a radio controlled plane. 20 levels in a class is supposed to represent years of training an studying of that single subject.

    There's part of the problem, people expect to do every aspect of the game regardless of class or race. Now the solution I present is going to make you think about what you are going to do. Is easy progression through the levels by multiclassing worth a single item? Now I have this item, will I be able to survive this quests that's full of traps or mobs without the support of others?

    Yes a wizard may have a staff that can make mobs tremble, but put a trap in front of the wizard with the trap box on the other side, it's going to be a fair bet the wizard will be asking for the rogue/arti to deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Sentinel weapons??

    or sentient?
    Meh, my bad. Been a few weeks since I read it and I slept since then.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Meh.


    Pures should be for DC focues casters, and for new players learning the game.
    After learning basics, they should be encouraged to build better characters.
    Pure should give idiot proofness, and multi should give chance to make your character utterly worthless, or very good.
    What is the DC for Tactical Detonation in EE What goes up for it to be effective?

  10. #10
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Meh.


    Pures should be for DC focues casters, and for new players learning the game.
    After learning basics, they should be encouraged to build better characters.
    Pure should give idiot proofness, and multi should give chance to make your character utterly worthless, or very good.
    lol This is exactly what the devs should NOT listen too.

    Pure should make you top notch at what your pure is built for but your char has less variety of skills, multiclass you lose some of being the "top" of what you build for but gain more options or variety in what you can do.

    A jack of all trades should not be a master at all they do.

    Right now you can multi but you don't really lose anything worthwhile compared to a pure and that is why pures are getting laughed at.
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  11. #11
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Meh.


    Pures should be for DC focues casters, and for new players learning the game.
    After learning basics, they should be encouraged to build better characters.
    Pure should give idiot proofness, and multi should give chance to make your character utterly worthless, or very good.
    How is it that you automatically say multis are better than pures? tell that to an assassin.

  12. #12
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    Trouble is that theoretically being pure requires NO thought or experience to run okay. A multi-class requires thought to make the build, thought to plan out the gear, thought to arrange the progress so it doesn't suck 18 levels out of 20, etc.

    Of course, having a forum destroys some of that need for thought because people just follow the builds. But take the divine monkcher I followed, that thing took skill not to completely suck and it would have taken some gear and probably life 3 to ensure it was good from 1 to 20 in elite. There are tons of builds that used to say "not for beginner". They required experience, gear, tomes, 3rd life, etc, to make decent from 1-20 or even to make work (some feats not achievable otherwise etc). Obviously the flavor of the month might be completely different than this.

    So personally I find it kind of insulting to disparage people from playing around and making builds to be better or more diverse. Pure is easy to build and this game's main attraction is the plethora of options and builds and classes and weapons.

    As to AA versus monkcher, here's the real facts. Before 10k stars, bow was a part-time endeavour and if you had the guts to make it full-time you mostly got laughed out of anything end-game-ish. Everyone did and still calls range as kiting idiots but at least now the kiting idiot will have the stuff killed instead of running around like a head-less chicken if that multishot didn't kill everything. Bow usage was a joke. AA suffer BECAUSE the devs designed bows like SHIAT. There is a reason why they get bow and twf feats for free as ranger, cause even the stupid people who designed bow animations and gameplay realized bows were bad.

    Monkcher is on par with a well built artificer with gear. Monkcher was a creation of some theory-crafter build genius and now everyone copies, but the fact remains the monkcher framework build was pure genius. Artificer 20 pure is insanely easy to figure out and build and the power is not lacking in any shape or form. The enhancements have made monkcher stronger than it was before and artificer a tad weaker (or better said harder to figure out how to keep the strength), so I think they are finally neck in neck. I think that is a GREAT thing. Bow should not be the red-head step-child of the brutish WF/BF artificer.

    EDs are a different topic and should not impact discussions of pure/multi as everyone can Fury/Shiradi with bows, pure ranger or monkcher or arti.
    Last edited by deahamlet; 01-08-2014 at 12:48 AM. Reason: today I learnt: don't type fast:P
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    lol This is exactly what the devs should NOT listen too.

    Pure should make you top notch at what your pure is built for but your char has less variety of skills, multiclass you lose some of being the "top" of what you build for but gain more options or variety in what you can do.

    A jack of all trades should not be a master at all they do.

    Right now you can multi but you don't really lose anything worthwhile compared to a pure and that is why pures are getting laughed at.
    I have to agree with this. But the Devs have dropped the ball too much since MOTU came out when it comes to pure classes.

    First, the most obvious place that they dropped the ball was with the new enhancement system. The originally concept for the enhancement trees balanced things for the most part by limiting the number of trees for both pure and non-pure. But there was a major problem with the limit with trees, the Devs arbitrarily moved the basic class stuff into the prestige trees, so the power slightly tilted in the pure class favor. The Devs then took the cap up to 6 trees, and the power shifted dramatically to the multiclasses. Instead of boosting the Core Abilities and Capstone instead of just for flavor, the Devs did nothing to them.

    The second obvious place that the Devs could have boosted Pure classes was to give Arcane Lore, Religious Lore and Wilderness Lore more uses in the game. This would have had very minor impact to the game, since many multiclasses would actually have the same amount of Lore as a pure class. However, instead of adding more uses in quests and dialog chices and other stuff, like the Devs originally claimed, the various Lores were ditched in favor of Astral Shard to advance/bypass obstacles. So a minor perk for pure classes became a dead unused system within two updates of its introduction (is anyone surprised by this?).

  14. #14
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relem View Post
    We all know how the game is now driving you to multi class and anyone that plays a pure class build get's laughed at.
    The problem is your premis is wrong right off the bat. So it's hard to even read your solution seriously.

    I play EE's every night with pure classes, I just ran a couple Von3's with 2 people in each group pure. Pure's are only extinct on the forums, and they are only laughed at on the forums.

    I am a huge multi'classer build guy, but I have a 20 FvS that is going to respec into .... a 20 FvS... Pure is not dead, it just needs a little lovin... not Bard, Barbarian and Paladin lovin' mind you... just a little.

    As for your suggestion, DDO actually makes a mistake by making much of the loot TO SPECIFIC TO A BUILD, I don't mind some items like this for the sake of variety and flavor (holy avengers), but I think MOST loot in this game should be given 3 to 4 variations on the theme just so it appeals to more people. There should be 2 or 3 weapons types for Epic ____ of Shadows... make one a Greatclub, and Hell how about a Epic Great Crossbow of Shadows (Oh I'd make a Mechanic build for this in a heartbeat) and make the seals and shard work on all three base items (oh and then pls triple the drop rate to 0.03% from the current 0.01%).

    Almost all of the set bonus items should come in differing items. I'd like the option to get the (say) Chronoscope set bonus by wearing Boots cloak and Helm OR Ring, Goggles and Gloves... This would widen the appeal of the set bonus items MASSIVELY... AND it would prolong the shelf live of those quests. Instead of throwing away your Boots cloak and Helm because you got a great Helm you can't pass up, you go farm the goggles and still get the set bonus. It gives flexibility.

    We don't really need more overly specific gear.

    Now the REAL way to improve pure classing as an option is to give them more trees in their classes (4 trees for every class would be a start) and fill those trees with less fluffy and more useful abilities, so you might actually spend 80 enhancement points in a single tree and benefit from doing so (right now you would be throwing away about 30-ish points on junk that's useless in almost every tree).

    Get this done and then put Racial PrE's in which gives an extra tree to every pure class character. These can also be used by multi's but multi's are usually sacrificing things they would love to have ALREADY, giving them more options to spend the zero's of AP's they have left is effectively a buff for pures.
    Last edited by IronClan; 01-08-2014 at 12:58 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Now the REAL way to keep pure classing as an option is to give them more trees in their classes (4 trees for every class would be a start) and fill those trees with less fluffy and more useful abilities, so you might actually spend 80 enhancement points in a single tree and benefit from doing so (right now you would be throwing away about 30-ish points on junk that's useless in almost every tree).

    Get this done and then put Racial PrE's in which gives an extra tree to every pure class character. These can also be used by multi's but multi's are usually sacrificing things they would love to have ALREADY, giving them more options to spend the zero's of AP's they have left is effectively a buff for pures.
    I agree partially with this.

    As I wrote, the problem came with the way the Devs originally structured the trees and moved basic class abilities into the trees. The long term fix is indeed to give every class at least 4 trees if not 6 trees, plus at least one unqiue racial prestige tree. Let's face it, that's not going to happen. Or at least if it does, it will be years from now.

    The short term fix needs to be boosting the high level Core Abilities and Capstones, instead keeping the fluffy flavor and weak sauce that comprise the current choices for pure classes. And the Devs have rejected suggestions from players for over 8 months.

  16. #16
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    I have to agree with this. But the Devs have dropped the ball too much since MOTU came out when it comes to pure classes.
    I don't think they've dropped the ball, I think they are steering the ship in the direction of more multiclass intentionally and for multiple reasons.

    A) I think their metrics say that they lose lots of new players to "I get laughed at/declined because I am multiclassed but this build was great in NWN!"*
    B) I think their metrics say that multiclassers make more toons, spend more money and stick around longer, because the character building in this game is unparalleled in MMO's. It's a game unto itself. (I can literally play DDO driving down the road or when working... I just roll some new alt or multiclass synergy around in my head and think of things to look up on the wiki... DDO is so incredibly deep that I've been playing for years and STILL have many things I have to research)
    C) Multiclassing gives new and fresh angles to an old thing... Many players gradually make more complex toons, many start off having pure class characters but then throw a curve ball to themselves to keep the game fresh by branching out. and when TR'ing this gives many new things to try out and experiment with.

    * The enhancement pass was (IMO) a home run in this regard... A lot of "elitist types" who might have tried to dump on someone for their "gimp build" in the past now are so thoroughly confused by all the new options and crazy hidden synergies that they're afraid to give anyone s*** for their "odd build" because that odd build might just be the next Jugg or Fire Angel.

  17. #17
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    You can tie gear to class level without making it pure exclusive.

    Yes, it would be better with pure (ie: capstone-like extra power if you hit 20) but that doesn't mean that the weapon has to be useless if you hit 18. All told, giving pures something to round out the edges still won't make them 'better' than multi-class builds. It'll just make them less of a liability when the element of the game they're weak to isn't directly counter by a group.

    ie: Pure Fighters / Barbs gain stacking 25% elemental, force, negative etc elemental reduction. Is that a lot? Yes absolutely. Is that better than evasion? Hell no. Does it round out a weakness? You bet. Or, if you wanted to be really clever, tie them to a capstone ability. Kensai capstone means an active incorporeal. StD capstone means elemental reduction etc.

    -------------

    Further, anyone who claims that building "pure" is thoughtless while multi-ing is 'hard' is just trying to make themselves feel smart. If a 14 year old kid can accomplish something, it's not particularly challenging. Building multi-class builds isn't a measure of anything but time investment, not particular skill.

    The real challenge is to provide innovation. Discover something new, showcase how much stronger something is than everyone believes etc etc. It takes almost no skill at all to click Lawful Good, X class/6 monk/2 paladin or X class/2 monk/2 paladin and be nearly EE ready. Yes, player skill matters at this point but your build is perfectly fine.

    A) I think their metrics say that they lose lots of new players to "I get laughed at/declined because I am multiclassed but this build was great in NWN!"*
    Maybe 5-6 years ago. But NWN is over a decade old. Unless they're coming from "Neverwinter" I don't think you have to worry too much about this group. :P

  18. #18
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    I say go for it. You could give demi god weapons to pures and unless theirs some add on that stops them from being shanked in the prison shower, I don't believe they'll be doing much dmg while weeping in the fetal position on the cold dungeon floor.

    Even less when the other umding people get tired of wasting scrolls and the time to cast them.

    And it would give me a reason to make even more powerfull natural umd classes! Mwahahahah. Do it, and deliver the last killing blow to those pitiful ones that dare call themselves a melee.

    (and yes I do believe a ranger with the bow out 24 7 will still suck with a demi god weapon lol)
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  19. #19
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Maybe 5-6 years ago. But NWN is over a decade old. Unless they're coming from "Neverwinter" I don't think you have to worry too much about this group. :P
    People coming from NWO can build only pure classes DPS only toons ;p
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  20. #20
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relem View Post
    We all know how the game is now driving you to multi class and anyone that plays a pure class build get's laughed at. But after reading the end of year dev letter, I got thinking. Sentinel weapons could be the way to make people think twice about multi classing.

    Ok, you have a Moncher and a pure AA standing next to each other. Both have Pinion and both blasting away. The Moncher "Hey, my burst DPS has just nuked down town Baghdad!", the AA "Wow, that wet paper bag took some beating..."

    Now, give them a Sentinel Bow, the Moncher "Huh, I farmed for this because?", the AA "Did I really just do that!?"

    Devs, link the Sentinel Weapons with the class level. Of course put on a ML for players to use them, but by linking to the class level you get people to think twice about character progression. By having 20 levels in a single class, you should be a total master of that class, and you should have the tools to prove you're a master, and you should be feared as a master.

    Think about it, it could bring a whole new element to the game. Imagine a pali with a sentinel sword and board "err, guys... Do you mind killing a few of these mobs that have surrounded me? Yes I know they aren't hurting me much, but I'm feeling claustrophobic here!". An Arti with a sentinel repeater which has constant endless fusilade with a rune arm to match. A wizard with a staff that makes God say "Jesus Christ, what the Hell just happened there!!!"

    Will this break the game? Not really, it gives more options to players on how they want their character to progress. Mutli-classes may cry about nothing waiting for them at end game, but it's the price you pay. Go ahead take 2 levels of rogue so you can do every trap in the game, but you're going to miss out on this.
    This would work if Dev's/Management didn't have ADHD (not literally, just in development). You would have a few Updates (say U22, U23, and maybe U24) before they try something "new" or different. So it would suck for awhile but nothing I wouldn't be able to play through. Then we would have some "new" system that will be an epic failure like your suggestion (Basically U14 - current) and I see no signs of Turbine changing. Then again, once level 30 cap comes, maybe the game will stabilize if management can remain focused. If they can remain focused....

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