Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 186
  1. #101
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Thank you for your commendations, but I predict that this bit should have an effect opposite of what you stated. If there is a challenge out there, with sufficiently high incentive, that is only beatable by 1% of the population - this gives everyone something to strive toward, and it sets a new mark against which everyone will compete, organize parties meticulously, and have fun attempting to complete.

    Then, when those who complete it post their achievements, fun is cultivated as folks get praised, and still more threads will soon litter the achievement section. This, in my view, is healthy for a game to have.

    Having a really difficult raid only adds to fun, enjoyment, character building, group cooperation, roles, and play incentive. I don't understand how it subtracts.
    yeah, LOB started out with 0.1% of the population completing it (and thats on a single difficulty, normal lob was completable by anyone within a week or two of launch). because there was good incentive, that increased to 25% by motu launch and would have kept going were it not for it's gear being made obsolete by motu. what i'm suggesting is that turbine design the raid so that it will trend from 1% to 100%, that is in everyone's best interest. this is sort of the case with TOD, initially impossible, but eventually completed with regularity by over 90% of the server. starting at 100% from launch is stupid and gives the raid no staying power and no challenge, which equates to no fun for us and no money for turbine. i think your (clearly negative) memory of lob is so strong that it eclipses your vision of what i'm saying.
    Last edited by ishr; 01-07-2014 at 10:30 AM.

  2. #102
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    yeah, LOB started out with 0.1% of the population completing it (and thats on a single difficulty, normal lob was completable by anyone within a week or two of launch). because there was good incentive, that increased to 25% by motu launch and would have kept going were it not for it's gear being made obsolete by motu. what i'm suggesting is that turbine design the raid so that it will trend from 1% to 100%, that is in everyone's best interest. this is sort of the case with TOD, initially impossible, but eventually completed with regularity by over 90% of the server. starting at 100% from launch is stupid and gives the raid no staying power and no challenge, which equates to no fun for us and no money for turbine. i think your (clearly negative) memory of lob is so strong that it eclipses your vision of what i'm saying.
    Loot gives a raid staying-power.

    Period.

  3. #103
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    819

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snapdragoon View Post
    I agree with the idea of awesome new raids.

    I DISAGREE with the OP's stuck up disposition towards the majority of players. wanting their pixel to be just a little bigger and little shinier then others so they can wave there Epeen.

    with difficulty should scale progress. not loot. loot should be the same in the end, but progress should be different per difficulty. an example would be chests in the shroud as it is now, maybe even more chests given out at higher diffs. 2 chests per area on norm, 4 per area on hard, 6 per area on elite.

    a harder difficulty should ALWAYS be encouraged and rewarded, but NEVER forced.
    ^This. Well said.


    And I agree with those that said FoT has done it well, same for Shroud (though I agree doing away with stones and cleansers is a good idea). The balance of needing a few items BtC and a bunch unbound is nice.

  4. #104
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    gamertown usa
    Posts
    6,495

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Khalesh View Post
    I have not read the entire thread but here is my opinion:

    I enjoy ALL the raids ever designed by DDO .. this even includes the Titan raid (when it was not bugged!)

    My only concern concerning raids is TIME taken to complete. I do not care what or how I have to do for the most part

    But raids that take longer than say 40-60mins to complete at optimal speeds have to be a no no!

    I don't care running and failing a very hard 20-40min raid multiple times but a raid that takes over an hour to complete on average is not my idea of fun!

    This applies in general for ANY quest

    I dare to say in general your average player is in their late twenties to mid thirties

    This is not a game that is dominated by teens with too much time on their hands I beleive

    I need something that can be broken down into manageable chunks in between RL responsibilities

    My 2 cp
    I don't mind raids being over an hour. DDO isn't choke full of multi hour quests, and you can get to that top level without spending time in the longer ones. However, I want some challenges that take time. So a raid that is an hour long or more? I am fine with that. As casual player friendly as people behave, we need something to cater to the hardcore crowd as well. Raids is pretty much the definition of that.

  5. #105
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The March of Bissel
    Posts
    186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    To me, FoT is not one of the worst raids in the game (as OP asserted), but one of the best.
    Absolutely, and you are definitely correct in asserting that this is the opinion of the majority, and the OP is wrong if he is suggesting that the majority prefers raids like LoB and not FoT. Lets not forget the almost universal accolades received from the community when it came out, and how there was a petition signed by many to give the designing developer a raise. FoT may not be perfect in everything it offers, but it represents the best raid mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Precisely my thoughts. There is a reason nobody runs LOB (and really never has except for people that had elite toons at the height of the raids popularity, brief as it was). This is one of the least run raids in DDO history, why would we want to emulate it? Shroud and FoT are some of the most run raids in DDO history, let's start with what the appeal is there.

    I understand, and largely agree with the sentiments of the OP, wanting to make a raid hard enough to almost enforce cooperation and roles, force good teamwork and tactics, but you don't want to generate a raid that caters only to the most elite high end gamers and excludes or discourages 70-90% of your player base. That's a losing strategy.
    This is perhaps the most balanced assessment I have seen here. Raids should be challenging and require specific roles, serious cooperation, and even training. FoT requires this, as does LoB. Nonetheless, the tiered difficulty drops is why no one runs LoB, and everyone runs FoT and Shroud. In these latter raids, and time and dedication will eventually yield you your items, whereas in LoB a PuG can't even form because everyone needs different difficulties depending upon what tier they are on. In fact, the devs would do well to change FoT so that the better mats drop more frequently, but not exclusively on higher difficulties, and the lower mats should drop on high difficulties as well, so that people won't not join simply because the difficulty is not relevant to their current place in the alchemical crafting process. I personally love LoB, but the upgrade system here is the worst ever conceived in the history of ddo and should definitely not be emulated!

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    1) Avoid long walks to raids, as in LOB. Along the same lines, avoid 6-man pre-raids, as it creates an unnecessary logistical chore
    2) Avoid straight up auto-attack + surround-and-pound
    3) Please avoid SP drain
    4) Please avoid NPC escorting, as the programming is just simply not up to par
    5) Avoid excessive flagging, for example Ascension Chamber
    Despite my strong reservations about elevating the crappy LoB raid and denigrating the well-built FoT raid, I agree with all of the above suggestions completely, in particular number 5. As a matter of fact, as the devs recently fixed the crappy outdated flagging mechanic for Reaver's Fate, please, please do so for Abbott as well. Its no longer the endgame raid, and simply running the prereq quests and litany four times should be enough without having to bother with the stupid sigil pieces. I'd be running it 6-8 times a week on my various alts if flagging wasn't such a pain. As is, I'm not even running it once most weeks.
    Main- Carrianne Taliesin Elven Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Rogue 2 Tempest AA, Orien

  6. #106
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The March of Bissel
    Posts
    186

    Default

    I feel the need to say something about the below comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    you are not part of the silent majority, you are part of the vocal minority that is always asking for ee loot to be dropped into their laps. we have seen you before.
    This is an ad hominem attack and degrading conduct for a member of the ddo community. If you expect everyone to respectfully hear your thoughts and feelings, please show the decency to return the same courtesy. If someone doesnt speak often on the forums as this persons says he does not, it is indecent to bully them out of doing so simply because you disagree with his or her opinion.

    To that point, the person commenting here is not asking that "ee loot be dropped into his lap", he is asking that raids be challenging just as you are, but that we be careful that raid difficulty is not simply rewarding those in elite social circles versus awarding competent players. There are many veteran playes who are capable of completing the most challenging epic elite raids who aren't always able to do so not because they themselves are not good enough, but because they don't run for any number of RL reasons in the social circles who regularly take on EE raid content. This poster is simply asking that the devs be respectful of these players and provide them a path to achievement as well, even if that path involves significant more grind.

    Also, as to LoB being a better model than FoT, just comb through the forums and the petition to give FlimsyFirewood a raise after FoT came out and you will see that you are most definitely not the majority there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    your argument is identical to the one you think i am making - you are saying raids should be everywhere easy, as a counterargument to "raids should be everywhere hard". however, i'm not saying raids should be hard for everybody, just that rewards should scale with difficulty, and that the highest difficulty should be somewhat challenging, and provide an otherwise unattainable reward.

    turbine's goal should be to create raids with staying power, for as wide a ranger of players possible. they can do this by properly tiering the difficulty of their raids and give players incentive to continue running raids at successively harder difficulties. it will not be solved by making it easy to complete by anybody and anyone, as you proposed.
    Again, this is misrepresentation. The poster here certainly did not suggest that all raids be easy, and while he was strong in his opinions as you are in yours, I don't personally believe he is saying that you are arguing that they should be too hard as well. He is saying that they should be challenging and require coordination and teamwork. Again, his point is that they should not be limiting to those in elite circles. This is fundamentally an argument about a class system and not about incompetent or untrained players sailing to easy success. We all want, as you say, raids to have "staying power, for as wide a ranger of players possible." You simply think the greatest threat to them is it being too easy to attain the best possible loot, whereas many of us believe the greatest threat is a class system which makes this most accessible only to those in elite raiding guilds.
    Main- Carrianne Taliesin Elven Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Rogue 2 Tempest AA, Orien

  7. #107
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Miasto Stołeczne Warszawa (The Capital City of Warsaw)
    Posts
    6,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I want a Pinion that fires halflings.
    Only if that halfings are dual weilding pinions and manyshoting on way to target.

  8. #108
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    819

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Only if that halfings are dual weilding pinions and manyshoting on way to target.
    How about halflings tethered to Sireths?

  9. #109
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    2,419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    I don't mind raids being over an hour. DDO isn't choke full of multi hour quests, and you can get to that top level without spending time in the longer ones. However, I want some challenges that take time. So a raid that is an hour long or more? I am fine with that. As casual player friendly as people behave, we need something to cater to the hardcore crowd as well. Raids is pretty much the definition of that.
    As long as the hardcore crowd are people, who earn money on a regular absis and support the game by this instead of free time overflowing gamers, okay. Otherwise, I really couldn't care less about *hardcore* gamers. I want the best loot even when I am in my own pacing. Actually, I don't think catering to hardcore players is something that should be taken into account. Those people crush new content in a relatively short time, get the best stuff on the fly and impose changes due to *understanding game mechanics* in a way, where exploit is not far away anymore.

    Instead experienced players should have a challenge, but not *insanely difficulty* as it was supposed somewhere. I want epic elite to be managable with my experience and playskills, which are not good enough to solo epic elite, but well enough to stand my ground for a certain amount of time if needed.

    Anything that builds up an exclusivity is bad for an MMO. If you want to be exclusive, found a guild but don't enforce it within content and/or loot.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 01-07-2014 at 01:23 PM.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  10. #110
    Community Member alancarp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    1) Avoid long walks to raids, as in LOB. Along the same lines, avoid 6-man pre-raids, as it creates an unnecessary logistical chore
    Partly due to laziness and partly in lateness of arriving to this party (in not reading the details of the 60-ish posts at this point), I choose to focus on this single line, for it is my pet peeve related to LOB and Master Artificer.

    Having to fight through not one, but TWO taxing explorer areas to reach each quest is beyond silly. Heck, even after doing so, I then have to exit, go repair my weapons, then re-enter. It's a very lengthy process - never mind the raid itself - and pretty much requires that I dedicate what little time I have for the game on a given evening just to do a single quest. I really like both of them, but simply can't run them nearly as much as I'd prefer... and thus I don't have the alchem gear I'd like, either.

    Excellent rant: thanks for posting.

  11. #111
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Miasto Stołeczne Warszawa (The Capital City of Warsaw)
    Posts
    6,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    How about halflings tethered to Sireths?
    Only if they would quadruple weild them.

  12. #112
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    I offer the following thoughts as a semi-casual player, one who plays 2-3 hrs a day. I am one of the silent majority who read but never post on the forums, and so are under-represented here. But this is important to me, so here goes ......

    To me, FoT is not one of the worst raids in the game (as OP asserted), but one of the best. It requires some level of coordination and teamwork, but not overwhelming amounts of coordination, and is consistently run by PUGs, because of both loot and Comms. The ability to eventually upgrade your raid loot to the best levels is a big part of the longevity of this raid. LoB, on the other hand, has nearly zero PUGs at any time. A non-PUGgable raid, one which can only be accomplished within a guild, and one which drops the best loot only on the hardest difficulty with no upgrade path, tells me that the developers consider casual gamers second-class citizens which should not do raids. It is a bright shining line between the elite and the hoi polloi riffraff noobs. Would you like to play a game which considers you a second-class citizen not worthy of the best loot? Simply because you are not a member of the best guilds, or for some reason cannot raid with their guilds due to time constraints?

    I understand that easy raids are boring to elite players, and there is a rush from accomplishing a truly difficult raid. But I think FoT is a good example of a properly balanced raid, as opposed to LoB. I know of many casual players who were recruited into "top-end" guilds because they PUGged a FoT, and their performance was noticed, along with their guild-less status. FoT is one of the rare places where elite and causal players meet.

    Make more raids like FoT. Not more LoB. Bear in mind that casual players take time to be accepted into the social scene and into good guilds on a server. If you make a top-end raid hard enough, requiring intricate teamwork only consistently possible in a guild run, and completely non-PUGgable, casual players will figure out that they are never going to be able to do that raid. And a portion of those casual gamers will be discouraged enough to drop the game. This, of course, has to be balanced against the elites who think the content is too easy, and also drop the game. But surely, a raid can be crafted to appeal to both populations.
    casual players ARE actually 2nd class citizens, i'm sorry. Turbine does (i guess, and it should) the folowing reasoning:
    player A, casual: Plays 2 hours per day, probably join a few pugs, don't care if he dies because he doesnt live inside the game, then go to sleep or do whatever. It's probably f2p or owned a few packs. He will probably be in and out the game for some months/years and then just quit.

    player B, hardcore: Plays a lot of hours. He will probably try to buy stuff from store, or earn it buy playing (hours of playing = money spent)
    If he needs mana pots (or whatever store item) to run his 20th raid completion and has noone, probably will spend some TP's in store.
    He is probably VIP or owned all the packs. He will probably play and spend money for years. He will probably have some good feedback for the devs about the game.

    And so on, and so on...

    so if you'd work in turbine...who would you care a bit more about ? casual or hardcore players ?

  13. #113
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    690

    Default

    i agree EE loot should stay on EE, no upgrades.

    Want that ghostbane necklace of winning ? Well, you better kill the big bad guy as bigger as he can appear

  14. #114
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Miasto Stołeczne Warszawa (The Capital City of Warsaw)
    Posts
    6,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alancarp View Post
    Partly due to laziness and partly in lateness of arriving to this party (in not reading the details of the 60-ish posts at this point), I choose to focus on this single line, for it is my pet peeve related to LOB and Master Artificer.

    Having to fight through not one, but TWO taxing explorer areas to reach each quest is beyond silly. Heck, even after doing so, I then have to exit, go repair my weapons, then re-enter. It's a very lengthy process - never mind the raid itself - and pretty much requires that I dedicate what little time I have for the game on a given evening just to do a single quest. I really like both of them, but simply can't run them nearly as much as I'd prefer... and thus I don't have the alchem gear I'd like, either.

    Excellent rant: thanks for posting.
    So, while we're at lob/ma:

    Lets say raid begins in mannufactury, and all exploler areas are part of raid. You're in house C and click LoB entrance and must beat wilderness.
    It's the same. Wilderness areas are part of the raid, not separate beigns. They're even easier, because mobs are always considered normal.
    Beating this trash is part of the raid. Do you want to be able to skip manufactury, step into MA, and skip all the trash to stand before Toven right away.
    Because for me, there is absolutely no difference between trash in raid and trash in wilderness (beside mentioned HP).

  15. #115
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    2,419

    Default

    player B, hardcore: Plays a lot of hours. He will probably try to buy stuff from store, or earn it buy playing (hours of playing = money spent)
    If he needs mana pots (or whatever store item) to run his 20th raid completion and has noone, probably will spend some TP's in store.
    He is probably VIP or owned all the packs. He will probably play and spend money for years. He will probably have some good feedback for the devs about the game.
    Sorry, no. That is a description of a supportive gamer. I do all that stuff (except being VIP and a lot of hours is relative, 2-3 hours a day is a lot) but cannot give feedback about specific mechanics, which could be improved or are bugged except the obvious. Spending money is not the definition of hardcore. Playskill, xp/min, number of past lives, number of epic TRs is. Advance this by comparing the time needed to achieve one of those examples or all together.

    While detailed feedback is always appreciated it is Turbine's burden to choose. On that regard I'd prefer a clear and official announcement that this game caters only hardcore gamers, because then I'd leave immediately. And thanks for enforcing the *class system* of the playerbase in this discussion. Such a bull....

    And for your information, they were at that point, back then, when soloing waterworks on a melee meant something and you had to shield block your arcane caster to kill STK endboss. I dare to call the claims for challenge shenanigans. What if highest difficulty didn't hand out better loot but just gave an insane difficulty setting? Nobody ran it, I guess. If there is loot to bait people into running higher difficulties then please for all people, if it is just for the difficulty, please, knock yourself out and go for the ideal.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 01-07-2014 at 01:51 PM.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  16. #116
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    FoT/CitW loot being upgradeable is good - but it was really far too easy to do. I think the system of EN and EH loot being upgradeable is fine - but it probably needs to be somewhat slower. Also, EE loot should still need a significant time to upgrade to the final tier, so even the EE raid crowd (which does not include me) has some upgrading to do. Throw in a few EE only items but not too many.

    In the distant past I was a top tier raider in EQ. Raids were measured in hours (sometimes 6+), losing alot of times before winning the first time was a given and lots of cooperation was very much needed. I dont long for those ultra long raids but having raids completeable in 15-30 mins (and quests in 5-10 mins) seems unwise to me. Instead raids should be tailored to take 90-120 mins which several mini bosses along the way each dropping some lesser loot and the final boss dropping the really cool stuff. Make it an actual adventure not a quickie during the lunch break, please.
    90-120 Minute raids...


    if it takes that long better have a chest every 5-10 minutes with ingredients to build gear similar to how shroud works otherwise if its 90-120 minutes for a random chest pull full of **** loot yeah

  17. #117
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Sorry, no. That is a description of a supportive gamer. I do all that stuff (except being VIP and a lot of hours is relative, 2-3 hours a day is a lot) but cannot give feedback about specific mechanics, which could be improved or are bugged except the obvious. Spending money is not the definition of hardcore. Playskill, xp/min, number of past lives, number of epic TRs is. Advance this by comparing the time needed to achieve one of those examples or all together.

    While detailed feedback is always appreciated it is Turbine's burden to choose. On that regard I'd prefer a clear and official announcement that this game caters only hardcore gamers, because then I'd leave immediately. And thanks for enforcing the *class system* of the playerbase in this discussion. Such a bull....

    And for your information, they were at that point, back then, when soloing waterworks on a melee meant something and you had to shield block your arcane caster to kill STK endboss. I dare to call the claims for challenge shenanigans. What if highest difficulty didn't hand out better loot but just gave an insane difficulty setting? Nobody ran it, I guess. If there is loot to bait people into running higher difficulties then please for all people, if it is just for the difficulty, please, knock yourself out and go for the ideal.

    I mean curretly with the p2w formula, hardcore players spend more money IMO. A hardcore player will probably buy an otto's box for another fancy PL feat (or epic box if it's triple completionist already), but the casual player could think "oh ***, i'll just go hard instead of elite"

    Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying is cool to have *player classes*, but i think it's the sad reality, and i think is *our* (the players) fault. Hardcore for being so "oh you're not uber, you cannot run w/ me" and casual players for getting so mad with hardcore players. And both types for not trying to understand the others way to play too

    I think i said the word "should" but i gotta make clear that i'm not a native english speaker, maybe you got me wrong cause of my own fail. I don't even consider myself hardcore, i give a **** about everything and just have fun with what i can get and what i like.

    And i know this game was different and hard, but is not that way anymore (it could be, and it is for me since i enjoy building and everything but i never max/min my characters)

    And about this sentece you wrote: "What if highest difficulty didn't hand out better loot but just gave an insane difficulty setting? Nobody ran it, I guess"


    you're talking to a person that 2 nights ago did a solo hard run of SoS just for the sov rune, normal woulda worked as good since i just want the DT outfit (for a wizard) and not xp, but it's too easy (hence boring). Elite SoS is beyond my reach with a lvl 20 PM / level 1 magister
    Last edited by harry-pancreas; 01-07-2014 at 02:25 PM.

  18. #118
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,080

    Default

    Here's a rather interesting thought:

    Should bravery streaks still apply to raids?

    I say they shouldn't due to how different a raid and a quest can be, but there may be something im missing.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  19. #119
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Here's a rather interesting thought:

    Should bravery streaks still apply to raids?

    I say they shouldn't due to how different a raid and a quest can be, but there may be something im missing.
    BB must die

  20. #120
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harry-pancreas View Post

    And about this sentece you wrote: "What if highest difficulty didn't hand out better loot but just gave an insane difficulty setting? Nobody ran it, I guess"
    This isn't a hypothetical.

    EE LOB . . . I think the hardest raid in the game . . . loot is dreck . . . nobody runs it.

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload