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  1. #1
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Default Devs: Regarding the Upcoming Raids

    This is an open letter to the devs responsible for the design of the upcoming new raids. I am leaving it open as I am sure other players have much to add to this topic. Rather than follow our typically inelegant development format of: create something crappy --> upload to lamannia --> deal with the player backlash, I am hoping that this thread will point out the favorable points of an excellent raid using the Update 13 (pre-MOTU) Epic Lord of Blades as a framework, and hopefully help the devs get ahead of the game. U13 ELOB is not a perfect raid, but I choose it to illustrate the main points, as it lends itself nicely to this. Furthermore, I do not claim to possess the ability to de novo generate a great raid. It sounds like an extremely challenging task and one fraught with difficulties. However, I think from the player side we have a lot to offer in terms of identifying favorable aspects of raids.

    Loot: The loot must scale to difficulty of the raid, and be better than much more easily acquired items (see lootgen). Before the epic lob loot scheme was broken after U14, its loot was supreme and it was necessary to run the hardest difficulty to obtain the most supreme loot. The EN versions should be useful, but not easily convertable to EE versions as in FOT, and there should be a portion of loot that is both GOOD and exclusively attainable in EE. Furthermore, loot acquired in this raid would benefit from being cumulative. Maybe you play it on epic normal and get a small amount of sub-optimal crafting materials like in LoB, and as you learn the raid and graduate to EH, EE, you get either higher amounts or better quality loot, and as such you can build on what you gathered while first learning the quest. This both encourages pursuance of easier difficulties by all players and then generates great replay value at higher difficulties, extending the lifetime of the raid. People will be discouraged that they can't quickly obtain the best loot in the first week (as in the case of FOT), however, that's a good thing, as it gives players something to aspire to, and lends staying power to a raid. Players will continue to invest time and money into it.

    Difficulty: The raid should not be easily completable on launch. Epic LoB required weeks to months before it began to be widely and reliably completable. In fact it never really reached the stage of shroud-proportions of being widely puggable until post-MOTU when everyone became OP from a relative standpoint. This was not because the devs nerfed it to be easier, but because the player base learned from their mistakes and developed better strategies to achieve completion. FOT and CITW both suffered greatly from this problem in that they were being taken down by underleveled, underpowered, undergeared toons without regard to party composition on the day of launch. FOT was particularly bad, with people ransacking the quest using 8x raid timer bypasses for the first few weeks until boom was fixed because it was just that ridiculously easy. I know in the past there has been a concern that if a raid is too difficult, nobody will want to run it. First, this problem can be mitigated by the tiered difficulty system, and the loot system described above. Secondly, hard is not a bad thing. This is where the staying power of your player base comes from. Hard raids unite players, requiring cooperation and regular contact with each other to repeatedly and reliably accomplish difficult feats. This builds inter-player relationships that leads to player retention. Easy raids don't require anything, and are quickly boring and do not invest the player base.

    Make Coordination and Skill-Specific Roles Required: This is the biggest shortcoming of not just post U13 raids, but all post U13 quests. In Epic LoB, certain roles needed to be filled by certain classes/builds. This not only increased the difficulty, but it did so in a way that wasn't utterly mind-numbing. Players needed to not only know the raid, but also know how to WORK AS PART OF A TEAM to fill an important role. This also creates a great source of replay value, once players master a certain role, for example tank in epic lob, they can experience the raid from another perspective such as CC caster, or healer, or kiter, each time having to spend lots of time and maybe money on the game to create or modify a character to these roles. FOT took us back slightly with some role-specific action required (suddenly we needed at least 1 tank and at least 1 healer!), however most post-U13 content is otherwise just a matter of pick-up whoever and roll in there with whatever, doing whatever. It doesn't even matter what the leader does to try and coordinate party action now.

    Story: I never read the story but apparently a lot of people care about this, so this should be a consideration .

    Variation: The quest should not repeat itself. LoB ran you through a succession of very different challenges - lead up dealing with CCing artificers and hard-hitting high HP mobs, forge area dealing with a raid boss with unique attacks that increased in variation as the fight progressed, and a post-boss frenzy of quori that needed to be controlled while pillars were taken down. On the other hand, CITW is essentially two identical fights, repeated twice for a total of four fights, interspersed with some annoying trash fights that differ only in the terrain over which they occur, and the supremely annoying final simultaenous-take-down trash fight which oddly enough poses a much bigger obstacle in the uncoordinated group than any of the actual "boss fights".

    Novelty: Give us something we haven't seen before. Somewhat the case in LoB, but a really good example of this is abbot. Sometimes things like the ascension chamber are not a bad thing. Not all raids need to be surround-and-pound. I know novelty was hard to achieve with FOT since GH has been out forever, so you get a free pass there, but very few people would complain if you threw something completely new at us.

    Bug Free: I don't care if it has a few bugs here or there. This is DDO after all. But no raid-disabling reform bugs like CITW lag or abbot asteroids. When I play this game I want to be working against monsters and puzzles at least 50% of the time, not bugs.

    UPDATES SECTION: The discussion in this thread has expanded beyond anything I could have imagined. I wanted to highlight some very good ideas that subsequent posters have raised, so that devs who refer to this post can see them on post #1:

    1) Avoid long walks to raids, as in LOB. Along the same lines, avoid 6-man pre-raids, as it creates an unnecessary logistical chore
    2) Avoid straight up auto-attack + surround-and-pound
    3) Please avoid SP drain
    4) Please avoid NPC escorting, as the programming is just simply not up to par
    5) Avoid excessive flagging, for example Ascension Chamber

    RESPONSES SECTION: Many of the responses have changed my mind about how things should be structured. I have made those changes above. Some of the responses I think are misunderstandings of my original intention. I address them below.

    1) I am not asking for raids to be across-the-board more difficult to complete, I am asking for them to be tiered in such a way as to both cater to the ability of the player as well as to encourage players to pursue harder and harder difficulties. A good point was raised that this should be done NOT by simply boosting stats for each difficulty, but also requiring more teamwork, coordination, cooperation, and possibly even unique mobs at higher difficulties.

    2) I can see that there are a number of players who would like there to be a system where EE loot can be acquired by running EN more times. I am opposed to this, because I think EE needs to offer some unique reward for the effort invested. It's true that this may prevent the casual player from acquiring top-end loot, however it is also true that this is how the casual player evolves into the hardcore player: promoting player investment is definitely in turbine's best interest. This is the crux of my argument, we need to encourage character development with our raids. Furthermore, as it stands the vast majority of EE loot is barely marginally better than EH, so the clamoring for EE loot to be available on EN is clearly not a matter of necessity. Instead, it serves some other psychological need which I don't quite understand and therefore won't comment on.
    Last edited by ishr; 01-07-2014 at 04:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Fully agree. This is exactly the way I want endgame raids to be like. I'd also like to add:

    -Once flagging is completed, the raid should be easily accessible by a teleporter (without requiring walking for 10-30 minutes through an explorer zone like HoX and LoB). Long walks are really annoying for setting up a group properly.
    Last edited by Forzah; 01-06-2014 at 07:16 AM.

  3. #3
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    Agree except for your difficulty/loot-scale scenario. One of the biggest problems with LoB is the requirement to run all difficulties in order to craft the Tiered Loot. Once the 1% had mastered the highest level of difficulty, it became progressively more difficulty to find competent groups willing to run the lower difficulties. With the apparent decline in population that problem will only be felt more strongly now. Add to that the very wide spread of epic level characters, i.e. epic level 21s vs. epic level 28/30s. At a MINIMUM, there needs to be a way to down-convert the higher level materials into their lower level counterparts. At best, materials will be both unbound and tradeable, and drop all tiers within the raid at all difficulties, with scaling drop rates, as in Shroud. Further, the luck based randomness of drops needs to burned in fire, replaced with measurable gains as in Cannith Challenges.

    Also, we can't forget XP. The last year or so of XP rewards in raids has been horribly unbalanced. Once the loot is acquired, good xp will be the main incentive to re-run.
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  4. #4
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    My number 1 request for any new raid is, no escorting. Even if the NPC is invincible, it's terribly annoying to walk it through the quest. All sorts of bugs crop up with the NPC getting stuck or falling off ledges or just bugging out. In a perfect world, it might be ok, but this is DDO and it is buggy. Don't add an unnecessary NPC element that can only lead to bugs, frustrated players and quest closures because it was too difficult to code properly.

    Leave the NPC's as lore/story only. Don't bring them into our party forcefully.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    My number 1 request for any new raid is, no escorting. Even if the NPC is invincible, it's terribly annoying to walk it through the quest. All sorts of bugs crop up with the NPC getting stuck or falling off ledges or just bugging out. In a perfect world, it might be ok, but this is DDO and it is buggy. Don't add an unnecessary NPC element that can only lead to bugs, frustrated players and quest closures because it was too difficult to code properly.

    Leave the NPC's as lore/story only. Don't bring them into our party forcefully.
    For raids and any quests

    Especially that they seem to have a " Charge !!! " kinda of attitude in general

  6. #6
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    Default Don't treat casual gamers as second class citizens

    I offer the following thoughts as a semi-casual player, one who plays 2-3 hrs a day. I am one of the silent majority who read but never post on the forums, and so are under-represented here. But this is important to me, so here goes ......

    To me, FoT is not one of the worst raids in the game (as OP asserted), but one of the best. It requires some level of coordination and teamwork, but not overwhelming amounts of coordination, and is consistently run by PUGs, because of both loot and Comms. The ability to eventually upgrade your raid loot to the best levels is a big part of the longevity of this raid. LoB, on the other hand, has nearly zero PUGs at any time. A non-PUGgable raid, one which can only be accomplished within a guild, and one which drops the best loot only on the hardest difficulty with no upgrade path, tells me that the developers consider casual gamers second-class citizens which should not do raids. It is a bright shining line between the elite and the hoi polloi riffraff noobs. Would you like to play a game which considers you a second-class citizen not worthy of the best loot? Simply because you are not a member of the best guilds, or for some reason cannot raid with their guilds due to time constraints?

    I understand that easy raids are boring to elite players, and there is a rush from accomplishing a truly difficult raid. But I think FoT is a good example of a properly balanced raid, as opposed to LoB. I know of many casual players who were recruited into "top-end" guilds because they PUGged a FoT, and their performance was noticed, along with their guild-less status. FoT is one of the rare places where elite and causal players meet.

    Make more raids like FoT. Not more LoB. Bear in mind that casual players take time to be accepted into the social scene and into good guilds on a server. If you make a top-end raid hard enough, requiring intricate teamwork only consistently possible in a guild run, and completely non-PUGgable, casual players will figure out that they are never going to be able to do that raid. And a portion of those casual gamers will be discouraged enough to drop the game. This, of course, has to be balanced against the elites who think the content is too easy, and also drop the game. But surely, a raid can be crafted to appeal to both populations.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    I offer the following thoughts as a semi-casual player, one who plays 2-3 hrs a day. I am one of the silent majority who read but never post on the forums, and so are under-represented here. But this is important to me, so here goes ......

    To me, FoT is not one of the worst raids in the game (as OP asserted), but one of the best. It requires some level of coordination and teamwork, but not overwhelming amounts of coordination, and is consistently run by PUGs, because of both loot and Comms. The ability to eventually upgrade your raid loot to the best levels is a big part of the longevity of this raid. LoB, on the other hand, has nearly zero PUGs at any time. A non-PUGgable raid, one which can only be accomplished within a guild, and one which drops the best loot only on the hardest difficulty with no upgrade path, tells me that the developers consider casual gamers second-class citizens which should not do raids. It is a bright shining line between the elite and the hoi polloi riffraff noobs. Would you like to play a game which considers you a second-class citizen not worthy of the best loot? Simply because you are not a member of the best guilds, or for some reason cannot raid with their guilds due to time constraints?

    I understand that easy raids are boring to elite players, and there is a rush from accomplishing a truly difficult raid. But I think FoT is a good example of a properly balanced raid, as opposed to LoB. I know of many casual players who were recruited into "top-end" guilds because they PUGged a FoT, and their performance was noticed, along with their guild-less status. FoT is one of the rare places where elite and causal players meet.

    Make more raids like FoT. Not more LoB. Bear in mind that casual players take time to be accepted into the social scene and into good guilds on a server. If you make a top-end raid hard enough, requiring intricate teamwork only consistently possible in a guild run, and completely non-PUGgable, casual players will figure out that they are never going to be able to do that raid. And a portion of those casual gamers will be discouraged enough to drop the game. This, of course, has to be balanced against the elites who think the content is too easy, and also drop the game. But surely, a raid can be crafted to appeal to both populations.

    Precisely my thoughts. There is a reason nobody runs LOB (and really never has except for people that had elite toons at the height of the raids popularity, brief as it was). This is one of the least run raids in DDO history, why would we want to emulate it? Shroud and FoT are some of the most run raids in DDO history, let's start with what the appeal is there.

    I understand, and largely agree with the sentiments of the OP, wanting to make a raid hard enough to almost enforce cooperation and roles, force good teamwork and tactics, but you don't want to generate a raid that caters only to the most elite high end gamers and excludes or discourages 70-90% of your player base. That's a losing strategy.

  8. #8
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    I offer the following thoughts as a semi-casual player, one who plays 2-3 hrs a day. I am one of the silent majority who read but never post on the forums, and so are under-represented here. But this is important to me, so here goes ......

    To me, FoT is not one of the worst raids in the game (as OP asserted), but one of the best. It requires some level of coordination and teamwork, but not overwhelming amounts of coordination, and is consistently run by PUGs, because of both loot and Comms. The ability to eventually upgrade your raid loot to the best levels is a big part of the longevity of this raid. LoB, on the other hand, has nearly zero PUGs at any time. A non-PUGgable raid, one which can only be accomplished within a guild, and one which drops the best loot only on the hardest difficulty with no upgrade path, tells me that the developers consider casual gamers second-class citizens which should not do raids. It is a bright shining line between the elite and the hoi polloi riffraff noobs. Would you like to play a game which considers you a second-class citizen not worthy of the best loot? Simply because you are not a member of the best guilds, or for some reason cannot raid with their guilds due to time constraints?

    I understand that easy raids are boring to elite players, and there is a rush from accomplishing a truly difficult raid. But I think FoT is a good example of a properly balanced raid, as opposed to LoB. I know of many casual players who were recruited into "top-end" guilds because they PUGged a FoT, and their performance was noticed, along with their guild-less status. FoT is one of the rare places where elite and causal players meet.

    Make more raids like FoT. Not more LoB. Bear in mind that casual players take time to be accepted into the social scene and into good guilds on a server. If you make a top-end raid hard enough, requiring intricate teamwork only consistently possible in a guild run, and completely non-PUGgable, casual players will figure out that they are never going to be able to do that raid. And a portion of those casual gamers will be discouraged enough to drop the game. This, of course, has to be balanced against the elites who think the content is too easy, and also drop the game. But surely, a raid can be crafted to appeal to both populations.
    this is what lower difficulty settings are for. lower difficulties of pre-motu lob were easily completable, even by groups that were 50%+ first-timers.

    you are not part of the silent majority, you are part of the vocal minority that is always asking for ee loot to be dropped into their laps. we have seen you before.

    your argument is identical to the one you think i am making - you are saying raids should be everywhere easy, as a counterargument to "raids should be everywhere hard". however, i'm not saying raids should be hard for everybody, just that rewards should scale with difficulty, and that the highest difficulty should be somewhat challenging, and provide an otherwise unattainable reward.

    turbine's goal should be to create raids with staying power, for as wide a ranger of players possible. they can do this by properly tiering the difficulty of their raids and give players incentive to continue running raids at successively harder difficulties. it will not be solved by making it easy to complete by anybody and anyone, as you proposed.
    Last edited by ishr; 01-06-2014 at 12:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    We need more raids like abbot and titan. Actually if we had to escort an npc through a random, invisible disappearing tile platform, while fighting an invincible enemy where we needed to coordinate the environment to kill it. That would be the best ever. And you wouldn't have the problem of people beating it on the first day.

  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    LOLz . . . we all know this raid will be beaten the first night of release and solo'd within a week on a monkcher.

    Turbine hasn't made a good raid since 2010.

  11. #11
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Whatever these people want, I want the exact opposite. Please factor this into your design.
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  12. #12
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    There is a reason nobody runs LOB anymore (and really never has except for people that had elite toons at the height of the raids popularity, brief as it was). This is one of the least run raids in DDO history, why would we want to emulate it?
    corrected. nobody runs lob ANYMORE because (surprise) the rewards suck and it's too easy. that's what needs to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Shroud and FoT are some of the most run raids in DDO history, let's start with what the appeal is there.
    Shroud was popular because it had good rewards (see a pattern emerging?). It suffered from the ailment of having poorly scaling rewards, being run only on normal difficulty for years, this was a problem that was recognized and which was changed in later updates. FOT is popular because it's the latest raid, and one of only two designed from ground-up for epic levels, not because it's the best raid. in the same sense that people don't run tempest spine or titan any more. don't mistake a paucity of options for a good raid.
    Last edited by ishr; 01-06-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    I would go back further to illustrate and example. How long did it take for the first completion of the Titan?. It was also challenging for sure; but did suffer from a lack of total party involvement. That could be addressed in an Epic version for sure. That being said, even if you knew how to complete it, which took months to a year or more to figure out, you still were not guaranteed it would be smooth. It had a great pre-raid quest that also offered some challenge before the main event. Turbine has really missed the boat on this raid (along with the Abbot). Ttian should have been a priority getting retro-fitted and made Epic. There is a ton of content there that does not get run hardly at all starting with HIPS. The Abbot would be equally challenging as the Abbot himself at an Epic level would be, well, Epic and provide many folks the challenge they are looking for. Plus, Epic Unwavering Ardency.... Oh Yeah!
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  14. #14
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    Loot: ... The EN versions should be useful, but not easily convertable to EE versions as in FOT, and there should be a portion of loot that is both GOOD and exclusively attainable in EE.
    I mostly disagree with this. Difficulty should be a choice, not a mandate. I like that the FoT gear can be upgraded and think that was a good design choice. CoVs are currently balanced for the hardcore and everyone hates them. Your biggest issue with FoT was that the hardcore whales ran it 8 times per day while it was new and exploitable, then the issue is the Bypass timers, not the raid's design. LoBs design just stratified the playerbase and made it impractically difficult for the non-hardcore guild raiding players to find what they need - When 3 people need tier 1 mats, 3 people need tier 2 mats, and 6 people are looking for the tier 3 mats, then those that are behind never get their foot in the door by running normal or hard difficulty. The result was that people just didn't bother to try since the mechanic was so prohibitive.
    I personally think the tiered loot system in general is flawed. I think it would be better design, and developer resource allocation, to have a Normal version, an upgraded Hard version, and the Elite version be the hard version with a lower ML. This slows powercreep, but still gives rewards for Elite that's nominal but not utterly required to advance through Elite content.


    I agree regarding EE FoT having Draconic Soul Gems exclusively, a very nice item but in no way "critical" to gearing is a good design choice.

  15. #15
    Community Member Aliss7's Avatar
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    We don't want escorting quests because you can't seem to code it right or even fix things:

    1. Both Anna and that guy in the high road can just get "stuck". I was in a CitW recently where Anna wouldn't run through the end tunnel to finish the quest.
    2. How highly annoying is it when someone, accidently or not, clicks on anna and steals focus.
    3. If you tell Anna that I am your shield and that she should do nothing, she should stay two feet behind you and act like a cosmetic pet. The fact that she runs around like a chicken without a head in front of you... gah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    this is what lower difficulty settings are for. lower difficulties of pre-motu lob were easily completable, even by groups that were 50%+ first-timers.

    you are not part of the silent majority, you are part of the vocal minority that is always asking for ee loot to be dropped into their laps. we have seen you before.

    your argument is identical to the one you think i am making - you are saying raids should be everywhere easy, as a counterargument to "raids should be everywhere hard". however, i'm not saying raids should be hard for everybody, just that rewards should scale with difficulty, and that the highest difficulty should be somewhat challenging, and provide an otherwise unattainable reward.

    turbine's goal should be to create raids with staying power, for as wide a ranger of players possible. they can do this by properly tiering the difficulty of their raids and give players incentive to continue running raids at successively harder difficulties. it will not be solved by making it easy to complete by anybody and anyone, as you proposed.
    Actually, raids are run mainly for loot. Raids that give relevant loot are the most popular. Observe Shroud, an "old" raid, but very often run by PUGs because it still has relevant loot. FoT is still run because people need loot/Comms, not because its the latest. And the new upcoming raids should give new loot that will outclass FoT, and they will in turn become the most run raids of the future.

    And I agree with you that the raids should have different difficulties to cater to elite/casual gamers. And more difficult difficulties should drop better loot. Otherwise, what's the point of running it on higher difficulties? But should the highest difficulty setting give loot which is otherwise unobtainable? Is providing an upgrade path for loot obtained at EN an "easy" button.

    Let me provide a perspective from my end of the power spectrum. I have never run FoT on EE. I managed to gather all the loot and Comms I want from FoT from running it 30-40 times at EN/EH levels (more EN, less EH). Without raid timer bypasses, playing on during weekdays and not weekends (family time), it took me 1-2 years. For much of that time, I was unguilded, so I relied only on PUGs. I had a sense of accomplishment when I finished upgrading my last piece of loot. You probably had that same sense of accomplishment within the first month of the release of FoT, having EE versions drop directly and not having to upgrade anything. I had to play catch-up for a couple of years behind the elite guilded players. But my efforts over the 1-2 years got me into a good guild. And I then saw what is achievable within a good guild when players have good teamwork, in a way that is not possible with PUGs. But without the initial carrot of upgradeable FoT loot, I would never have lasted the 1-2 years required to land myself into a guild. I would have just given up within 6 months.

    But according to you, the process I went through was proof that I want something for nothing, that I want EE loot to simply drop into my lap with no effort on my part. I understand your perspective: people should not be able to get EE loot without being able to do EE content. You're saying that loot should be a mark of an elite player. Less skilled player should get lesser loot. I'm saying that being 1-2 years behind elite players is penalty enough; that it is appropriate balance. You're saying, no, casual players should be PERMANENTLY behind elite players.

    I understand the craving for a piece of loot to become a status symbols. And status symbols are fine, if they do not come with associated power. But if EE loot is more POWERFUL then EH loot (as opposed to being prettier cosmetically), then each piece of EE loot you acquire makes it easier for you to acquire the next piece of EE loot, and for casual gamers, each piece of EE loot you lack makes it that much harder to acquire the next piece. Eventually, you'll have two peaks in the power spectrum, one small peak composed of elite players with EE loot to the right of the giant peak of casual players with their weaker equipment. At that point, how do you balance quest difficulty? Do you aim for the trough between the 2 peaks, so that quests are hard enough to stump all casual players, yet still easy enough to bore all elite players? Isn't it better to get a power curve there is one big peak, and players vary continuously in their power? Do you not understand that reserving EE loot only for players who can do EE content, logical as that may sound, will lead to the bifurcation of the player base, and will make the game increasingly difficult to balance?

    The currently system means that casual players have 1-2 pieces of EE loot, but will still be behind elite players with all slots fully decked out in EE loot. But there is always a carrot even for casual players. This will require a sacrifice by elite players. It means that no individual piece of EE equipment is an unmistakable status symbol. Rather, elite players can only be distinguished by their better skill levels, better efficiency at completing quests, and better equipment as a whole. I think that is an appropriate balance. But this is a normative argument. There is no "correct" answer. Some people will feel that DDO should be like the Olympics. If you cannot cut it at the top levels of competition, you should never get an Olympic medal. I'm saying maybe, it should be like a bachelor's degree. Maybe you didn't attend a traditional 4 year college. But if you attend night classes at your community college, you will one day also get your bachelors. What should DDO be? I think the developers will have to decide.

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    In my opinion the best 2 raids in the game are Shroud and Fall of Truth. In both cases new and casual players can achieve the same thing that people running on higher difficulties do, but it takes much longer. To me that is a much better design than discouraging the 99% of the player base that will never run raids on EE.

    The biggest problem I've seen since I started playing the game is the high attrition of new/casual players at higher levels. The end game needs to be challenging for everyone, but it can't be designed to exclude the majority of the player base. Most people want balance in their life and the DDO raid/reward system should reflect that. We can't scale quest difficulty and rewards to the <1% player base that exhibits symptoms of addiction. They may be over-represented here on the forums, but Turbine has the data to know this is far from the normal player.

    Turbine went too far by having no new raids at all since FOT. It was an extreme over-correction. They shouldn't over-correct in the opposite direction either. Make some good raids and make the loot system reward higher difficulties but it shouldn't be exclusionary. Think shroud when you design the new raids.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  18. #18

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    Thanks for your feedback on the upcoming raids! We still have a lot to say about them, and expect to read a lot more feedback in the coming weeks.

    That said, we will confirm that neither of the Update 21 Raids involves escorting anything or anyone.

  19. #19
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post

    That said, we will confirm that neither of the Update 21 Raids involves escorting anything or anyone.
    Good. Next time "Escort" and "Raid" are in the same sentence it better involve a brothel.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    The biggest problem I've seen since I started playing the game is the high attrition of new/casual players at higher levels. The end game needs to be challenging for everyone, but it can't be designed to exclude the majority of the player base. Most people want balance in their life and the DDO raid/reward system should reflect that.
    If anything, those " more serious " gamers are the ones that are leaving, not new folks or newbs.
    Not everything should be catered for one group or another but there should be something to do or aspire to for both sides of the spectrum.
    There is no such thing as "some are excluded because ... ".

    We can't scale quest difficulty and rewards to the <1% player base that exhibits symptoms of addiction.
    So those that try harder to make their toons or play better or want to get most of their spare time are " more addicted ". Lol

    Hope we all get more content or fun this year, but as the troll said, it's gonna be " on farm status " two days later anyway.
    "I pay subscription, so gimme my elite loot now".

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