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  1. #121
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Cocoon has a 12 second cooldown.

    Reconstruct is 6.
    Fair enough, that's better. Is it enough to cause a full paradigm shift? I guess we'll see.

  2. #122
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    You're preaching to the choir about melees self healing with scrolls. I've always said it sucked, even if you can do it easily. It's only good if there is no other option. On a somewhat related note, my drow spellsinger bard has a umd score of 48 at level 13. He doesn't have half of the boosts you do. Not bragging or anything, i just think it's sort of amusing. I'm contemplating which arti scrolls will be useful.
    This guy was in fact a Bard Spell Singer in his previous life. Max CHA and enchantment focus, so he scroll healed without fail nor much effort at a relatively low level himself. It's partly to blame for why I even attempted it, I didn't think it would be that big of a deal because it was so easy before. I've played a million different sorcs, and the fleshy ones did take a bit longer than the bard to get to no fail because a bard gets a full point every level where sorcs only get half, but it was never a problem as they killed from a distance and nuked things really fast. So since I never had any trouble with self healing via UMD in the past, I didn't expect to have much this time around. Yet I'd never really played much melee, and even with great saves, decent PRR, and displacement, when you start cleaving in a crowd you're going to take a few lumps.

    Where my BF toon just hits his 'make all the pain go away button' and then goes back to cleaving as if nothing ever happened, my human is stumbling around ducking for cover while juggling wands and scrolls praying for some relief. Even with 85% chance, you only get 1 in 5 to go off, and only 1 in 10 during a fight. So you have to wand whip a few times in between each attempt at a scroll, and if you do finally manage to get yourself out of the danger zone and back in the fight, it's usually not long until your doing it all over again.

    Now in a full party, this is never really a problem. The damage is spread out, and things die a lot faster, practically instantly in most groups. So you can shake your wand a few times running to the next battle and you're set. But when you're solo, or running with a mate, it's a real pain. The point is, sure WF arcanes have always had Reconstruct, but an entirely melee build (2 pally doesn't count, it's really just an increased saves feat) has never had anything even remotely like Communion of Scribing. There were SF pots, but they only further demonstrate just how OP BF is because they have so many negative attributes.

    I wouldn't for a second call BF OP if it weren't for the fact that there's nothing else even comparable for anyone else playing a full melee class build. In fact, I think it makes the game more fun, makes melee more fun, and they should add similar abilities for all races.

  3. #123
    Community Member blackdae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post

    In this last part here, you're talking about a hybrid build. Not really sure that's an accurate way to represent artificers. What's going to be my best ed? Does adrenaline work with repeaters the way it does with manyshot?
    I know people who run their artis in draconic. I can't see how they would be better than a sorc or even wizard in that ed. Shiradi? That's what i set him up to be in when i reach epic. I'll see how it works.
    Arti in Shiradi is a lot of fun.. Sometimes you FOD enemies too even on EE!
    Fury is not that good for an arti, in my opinions.. I maxed the ED to try, but since every bolt has its own dice, it's not as fun as with a bow..

    So Shiradi FTW!

  4. #124
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I hate to sound rude and condescending, but as others have said, read up on them. You can do great things with BF.

    Making statements like you are only make your points less relevant. Not trying to be overly harsh at you, but BF can do a lot more than just self-heal.
    Aside from the reconstruct sla, their enhancements look pretty much the same as warforged. A couple of nice ones, but nothing completely overshadowing some of the other races. This really is about the reconstruct, isn't it?

    This thread was initially about no toons needing to be healed. If toons already didn't need to be healed, what exactly is new about this?

    Once you've reached the point where outside healing is completely unnecessary and superfluous, does making it moreso even have any meaning?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    No, thanks, I've had enough 'mana spongers', I'll just solo instead (scaling encourages that).
    Healing raids/important boss fights/etc is another thing.
    Haven't read the whole thread to see if this is lrd, but ... ppl came out with the same about trappers, cc'ers and others over the last 5 years. Who needs 'em? Fquc 'em! Etc., until certain new end-game missions required toons with those unfashionable abilities.
    Sure, once MoTU* arrived ppl re-tweaked their splash builds, but in the meantime I found myself being pinged by guys who'd turned me down for shroud runs the week before ... simply 'cos i now had sth no one else had
    "BYOH, till we need some real healing for a raid, then there better be some heal focused divines just waiting for us" is exactly the same - we don't wanna help you level but we expect your unadulterated support for end game.

    Doesn't make the game fun for those who wanna play to help others as well as themselves.

    (*not really MoTU but don't wanna get into bickering details so hypothetical game 'advance')

  6. #126
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    This guy was in fact a Bard Spell Singer in his previous life. Max CHA and enchantment focus, so he scroll healed without fail nor much effort at a relatively low level himself. It's partly to blame for why I even attempted it, I didn't think it would be that big of a deal because it was so easy before. I've played a million different sorcs, and the fleshy ones did take a bit longer than the bard to get to no fail because a bard gets a full point every level where sorcs only get half, but it was never a problem as they killed from a distance and nuked things really fast. So since I never had any trouble with self healing via UMD in the past, I didn't expect to have much this time around. Yet I'd never really played much melee, and even with great saves, decent PRR, and displacement, when you start cleaving in a crowd you're going to take a few lumps.

    Where my BF toon just hits his 'make all the pain go away button' and then goes back to cleaving as if nothing ever happened, my human is stumbling around ducking for cover while juggling wands and scrolls praying for some relief. Even with 85% chance, you only get 1 in 5 to go off, and only 1 in 10 during a fight. So you have to wand whip a few times in between each attempt at a scroll, and if you do finally manage to get yourself out of the danger zone and back in the fight, it's usually not long until your doing it all over again.

    Now in a full party, this is never really a problem. The damage is spread out, and things die a lot faster, practically instantly in most groups. So you can shake your wand a few times running to the next battle and you're set. But when you're solo, or running with a mate, it's a real pain. The point is, sure WF arcanes have always had Reconstruct, but an entirely melee build (2 pally doesn't count, it's really just an increased saves feat) has never had anything even remotely like Communion of Scribing. There were SF pots, but they only further demonstrate just how OP BF is because they have so many negative attributes.

    I wouldn't for a second call BF OP if it weren't for the fact that there's nothing else even comparable for anyone else playing a full melee class build. In fact, I think it makes the game more fun, makes melee more fun, and they should add similar abilities for all races.
    Sounds like you would benefit from someone else throwing a heal on you. According to the forum pundits, you're a gimp. It's well know on the forums that you can self heal with any melee with absolutely no loss in dps. And it's easy. Which is why i don't get why it's such a big deal that you can now do it with a warforged.

  7. #127
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Aside from the reconstruct sla, their enhancements look pretty much the same as warforged. A couple of nice ones, but nothing completely overshadowing some of the other races. This really is about the reconstruct, isn't it?

    This thread was initially about no toons needing to be healed. If toons already didn't need to be healed, what exactly is new about this?

    Once you've reached the point where outside healing is completely unnecessary and superfluous, does making it moreso even have any meaning?
    The biggest reason for me is that the recon is far better than cocoon. Even though toons have not needed a healer for a very long time, this makes it just that much easier to keep you healed in a quest.

    Drop cocoon-extra twist slot. No need to use ugly half-elf that you need to pull out a scroll for, BF is just a push of a button. Not to mention the SF pots could get expensive and take up a ton of room for many half orc monks. Not saying that the BF is necessarily the best monk type out there, but this is definitely a boost when it comes to self-heal.

    Not sure if you run many hard EE quests, but you could notice a huge difference in survivability between a melee that is not BF and one that is.
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  8. #128
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Which is why i don't get why it's such a big deal that you can now do it with a warforged.
    If you cannot grasp the concept of recon being more powerful than cocoon, then we have nothing left to discuss. You can go back to living under a rock without understanding the simplest of game mechanics and then trying to belittle people that do.
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  9. #129
    2016 DDO Players Council PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    As a long-time veteran PnP player, most of these problems stem from the basic PnP core of the game and you're not going to get rid of them without making the game into something other than "Dungeons and Dragons Online".

    D&D has never, ever, EVER been "balanced". Some nitwit on the 3.0 design team actually said that getting a feat is basically equivalent to getting a new level of spells. Yeah, the ability to now pick up lightning reflexes is TOTALLY equivalent to getting Fireball for the first time. NOT.

    Even 4.0, which basically turned it into a card game, is not remotely balanced. They were getting better and better at having a coherent system with 3.5 add-ons and they TRASHED IT ALL in favor of a system where abilities have no real equivalencies so things like "hit one enemy for 4W damage!" and "hit 15 enemies for 6W damage and crowd control them and put a dot on them that makes them take additional damage!" are considered roughly equivalent!

    If you pick abilities that sound good and seem like they ought to go together, you will suck so hard that in an emergency you could be used for a surgical appliance. If you instead pile up a bunch of stuff that sounds completely insane (I'm an archangel demilich oracle!) but actually has fantastic mechanical synergy, you will be an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction.

    DDO is exactly what you'd expect as the end result of this kind of "design" philosophy. There's never really been a "healer" in D&D. Even the best cleric is probably going to spend the vast majority of their time whacking things with a mace or throwing offensive/cc spells simply because you don't get that many healing spells or that many spell slots and even your best heals are not going to take someone from 0 to full. Heals are "**** OH NO DON'T DIE!" not "I throw this every round, that is what I do". In the REALLY old days there was no such thing as "cure moderate wounds" and you didn't get anything other than Cure Light until 7th level. You aren't a "healer" with 3 CLW and a Dust Devil memorized. It just ain't happening.

    D&D has consistently done one thing--penalize being a one-trick pony FAR more than strictly limiting you in the *number* of tricks you can successfully acquire and use. How many rogue levels do you need in order to do traps? One. How many paladin levels do you need in order to get big saves? Two. How many monk levels do you need to get stances and evasion? Two. Then here's the kicker--how many Barbarian levels do you need to REALLY benefit from the class? TWENTY. Even *casters* are better off. They can dump 2 or 3 levels to pick up those ultra-valuable extra tricks and still have access to all of their spell levels, meaning that in addition to STARTING OUT with more tricks than anyone else, they can afford to get even more of them!

    Monks have *always* been the epitome of the "most tricks" class. Best resists, most attacks, most immunities, best movement abilities, most offensive specials, scads of customization options. Compare that to Fighters. Yeah, Fighters have tons of customization options! Except that the majority of their options actually push them into a narrow pigeonhole that is only a TINY bit more effective (and often less effective) than what monks get handed to them for free. Weapon and armor (and alignment) choices were the ONLY restrictions on monks. Except that in DDO the armor doesn't matter and if you don't mind taking a feat or 8 fighter levels the weapons don't, either.

    Fighters ought to be the "most tricks" class. A lesser rage should be a fighter feat. Stat-to-AC (with a cap)? Fighter feat. Evasion? Fighter feat. Stat-to-saving throw (with a cap)? Fighter feat. Resist this, immune that? Fighter feat. Improved movement? Fighter feat. Alternate attack/damage stat? Fighter feats. Crowd control, threat manipulation, damage absorption, sneak attack, DR breaking? FIGHTER FEATS. And not EPIC feats, either. FIGHTER BASE FEATS.

    With that kind of freedom on what should be the "generalist melee" class, now you've got carte blanche to go absolutely NUTS on specialization with the other melee classes. Sneak attack, traps, smites, lay on hands, two-weapon/bow cool stuff and rage galore, because at minimum it HAS to be better--and more specialized--than what you can *possibly* get on a fighter. Who can do EVERYTHING.

    Anyway, I feel for you on the whole "healing is boring" issue. My main used to be a cleric. Now, I'm not the one-trick-pony sort. I don't like playing them. I don't think people should be forced to wait around for a healer just so you can be entertained with your particular choice to be a healbot instead of branching out, though.

    I think what needs to be done on the development side is to get rid of this whole concept that there's such a thing as a primary healer who functions by sitting around and punching buttons when your health bar gets low. That sort of thing is boring and limiting to everyone involved. Let everyone "heal" or be largely independent of healing. Have them all do it in different ways with different drawbacks and benefits.

    Arties, sorcs, and wizards are already pretty solid on this--they have the whole reconstruct option if they want to play warforged (or do construct essence) or the Pale Master option or the UMD option. Arties can chuck potions (although it's pretty goofy and most people don't use it). So, they're already decent. Monks have Healing Curse and their Light Finisher. Paladins have Lay on Hands (although it could stand to be a bit better and more versatile.) Druids are crazy awesome with their heal over time abilities. Stack some Vigors on the raid then run off and do your thing for a while.

    Barbarians--give them the ability that, when they are raging and kill things, they build up a huge fund of temp hit points. They become a trash-killing, zerging machine. Abilities like Bodyfeeder and damage reduction just make them scarier. However, when they hit a boss they probably need someone to watch their health bar because now there's not a ton of trash around to kill. They also constantly need to keep moving because they want to keep a fund of temp HP built up without letting them expire. They still have their issue where debuffs are a big problem due to low saves and the fact that anything that reduces their killing power starts a snowball effect that screws them over bigtime. That would be INTERESTING.

    So, how about favored souls and clerics? How do you distinguish them? Well, you've already got that cleric aura thing (although it requires WAY too much investment to get the passive one). But there are a ton of options that could be really cool. Maybe one gets an ability where if the enemy they've dotted dies, it blows up in a positive energy burst. Maybe give one an ability where they can summon a dead character to their location and instantly raise them. (Yes, I know this could be exploited in some quests--I honestly do not care.) Let one overheal and stack up temp hp on people. Let one eat a portion of the damage for their target. Give one a charge-up ability that gets better the longer you wait to use it.

    These things don't exist in D&D (although the barbarian temp HP does in 4th ed) not because they're contra to the theme of D&D but because they'd require people to sit there for hours doing math and tracking things in order to figure out what the heck is going on. Pen and paper is an ENTIRELY different experience than a computer game. Humans can't track all this ****. The computer can.
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  10. #130
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    If you cannot grasp the concept of recon being more powerful than cocoon, then we have nothing left to discuss. You can go back to living under a rock without understanding the simplest of game mechanics and then trying to belittle people that do.
    You know, it doesn't really bother me that you and several others say some fairly insulting things to me. I have to respect someone for them to be able to hurt my feelings. But it does kind of bother me that you are saying i am belittling people. Where exactly am i doing that? I'm disagreeing with them.

    Aren't you on record as being someone who doesn't actually play this game any more?

  11. #131
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Aren't you on record as being someone who doesn't actually play this game any more?
    And yet he still knows the game better than you do.

    Look up "power of the forge"

    Once again, read more, post less.

  12. #132
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Is water better at quenching your thirst than battery acid?

    How can you ask such an obvious question and expect anyone to take anything you say seriously in the future?
    I don't know how i can expect that. Probably the same way you can be one of the most vociferous complainers about how worthless something is, and then, shortly after, be one of the most vociferous complainers about how difficult it is to do. (Epic tr)

  13. #133
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And yet he still knows the game better than you do.

    Look up "power of the forge"

    Once again, read more, post less.
    You're a funny guy to be telling anyone to post less.

  14. #134
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'm asking because it's not obvious to me. A cocoon heals my ranger on average for about 500 hp. Did they remove the cl15 cap on the reconstruct sla? Is it really hitting for a lot more than that? What's the cooldown?
    That's not really a fair comparison. Cocoon, as per the wiki's description, protects the target ally with a shield of [90/120/150] temporary HP for 9 seconds. Heals 5d6 HP every 2 seconds while the shield persists.

    5d6 per 2 seconds... 4 ticks would be 8 seconds, so you get at most 4 ticks. So best case scenario is 30 per tick. 120 overall. If you're talking getting in the 500 range then you must have empower heal, so now cocoon doesn't just cost an ED twist, it costs a feat slot as well. It's also only available in epic levels. Your number sounds a bit to me like you hit 412 once so you rounded up to 500. Yet, I do realize if you have tons of heal amp and positive spell power and healing lore you can see a dramatic increase in effectiveness, so I'm going to take you at your word with the 500 average. However, looking at the ability's description, the HoT only lasts as long as the shield, if you hit the button and then got smacked in the face, there goes your shield which means no heals for you. In fact, for 9 seconds you have to take less than 150 points of damage... on a melee character in epic levels, that'd be a pretty neat trick.

    By comparison, Communion of Scribing is instant and on my level 20 BF without having taken any investments beyond throwing on a reconstruction ring and taking half a point in repair every level, I can hit 474...



    OK, I cheated, my reconstruction ring is only 78, so I bought a 90 dagger off the AH real quick to see what it'd do. I know at level 25 my FVS had a 120 devotion item, so I'm sure by 28 I'll have something better than my 78 ring. Either way it's an instant heal that isn't contingent on not taking damage for 9 seconds.

    As others have said, BF has more tricks up its sleeves than just excellent self healing, roll one up and you'll too discover the power of the forge.

    -----edit------

    For comparison, here's the human version of the build, he's lagging behind at level 17 because he's not as much fun to play. When you've got Pac Man fever you want to gobble up them dots, not duck around corners and pray for high numbers on your UMD rolls.



    He's got full ship buffs and full human heal amp, and has to fumble around just to attempt to get that paltry heal while the BF just goes back to full and then goes back to fighting with the press of a single button.
    Last edited by Chilldude; 01-06-2014 at 06:25 PM.

  15. #135
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    If the pug lfm doesn't say byoh or be self sufficient, I expect someone to provide some healing. Even if I am self sufficient.

    Otherwise, all pugs should and typically say byoh or self sufficient only, or zerg, etc.

    And if I join one, and they are all go, go go, and I am not self sufficient, I ask.

    I think it is ruder to make the assumption blindly and wipe. Better to waste breath and ask than to die assuming that fvs was going to heal you.

  16. #136
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    You know, it doesn't really bother me that you and several others say some fairly insulting things to me. I have to respect someone for them to be able to hurt my feelings. But it does kind of bother me that you are saying i am belittling people. Where exactly am i doing that? I'm disagreeing with them.

    Aren't you on record as being someone who doesn't actually play this game any more?
    Like I said, I was not trying to be insulting. People are even showing screenshots and telling you where to look to find out how powerful BF can be.

    You sound no different than someone that may say that playing monks requires you to mash too many buttons so it must be a terrible class to play. Unless you are willing to look at the options and actually PLAY the toon, you cannot really cast judgment and say one is any worse or better than another. This is the problem. No one is telling you that you are an idiot, but until you are willing to at the very least read up on the BF then you are just throwing darts in the dark with nothing to base your opinions are.
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  17. #137
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post

    As others have said, BF has more tricks up its sleeves than just excellent self healing, roll one up and you'll too discover the power of the forge.
    Not saying it isn't a nice race. For 1250 tp or whatever it costs, it should be. It's just funny to me how all these vets are going gaga over something which, according to them, they were already doing.

  18. #138
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    You're a funny guy to be telling anyone to post less.
    Difference is I'm good at DDO.

    You should sign up for my course.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    ...you can be one of the most vociferous complainers about how worthless something is, and then, shortly after, be one of the most vociferous complainers about how difficult it is to do.
    Is that supposed to prove something? There's no contradiction there. Something could well be both of little worth and high grind.

  20. #140
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Is that supposed to prove something? There's no contradiction there. Something could well be both of little worth and high grind.
    He doesn't know anything about DDO so what do you expect?

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