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  1. #21
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnziteBob View Post
    (...)Those are always the ones that scream "HEAL ME!" the loudest.(...)
    With the notable exception of TEH TROLL, of course .
    Last edited by Nestroy; 01-06-2014 at 06:32 AM.

  2. #22
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendael View Post
    I don't really fall squarely into any of those categories.

    • That would put you in the "Other groups I wasn't thinking of ATM

    DDO is my first MMO and the only one I play.

    • Same for me!

    Nope, you'll always find me in the thick of things Greater Cleaving away and I am typically about middle of the kill board. I enjoy being in the thick of the ugly stuff.


    I guess I just enjoy the challenge and like to play a slightly more complex role healing and fighting at the same time.
    Sounds like you play your Cleric much along the lines I do mine, so let me take a stab at addressing your op from a different angle:
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendael View Post
    It seems like none f the heroic quests are challenging enough to tax 90% of the puggers out there who seem to be multiple TRs stocked up with self healing and if I'm lucky I get to top up the occasional health bar during boss fights. It pretty much makes my toon meaningless. It turns my melee healer from a medium DPS/healer into just another anonymous name in the middle of the kill count .
    The reason (IMO ofc) you don't find challange is the player base's apparent thirst for efficiency. While game design isn't necessarily blameless, zerging Multi TRed uber geared characters through at level Elite quests isn't supposed to be challenging, it's just the most efficient way to level. Efficiency is inherently antithetical to challenge. Take a group of those same uber geared Multi TRed toons into The Pit on Elite at the lowest possible level allowed to enter - no invis allowed - and I'm willing to bet that challenges will present themselves. Better yet, level an entire life that way! Unfortunately it would take a significantly long time to cap compared to current standards/expectations.

    Now, outside of a guild/channel/friend thing you're not likely to make that happen - people (generally speaking) don't actually want challenge, they want to rofl stomp content then brag/complain how easy it was. Ever notice how often the same forum names crying "the game is too easy!" are the same that talk about invisozerging past significant portions of quests, used heroic twists and in some cases are part of the "pay not to play" crowd that prefers to buy as much power as possible, then complain the game isn't designed to challenge someone who's ammassed as much power as possible and instead of actually using it, meta games around as many potential challenges as possible?

    Sorry, that got a bit soap-boxy. TL;DR: There's plenty of challenge available for those who want it, but most prefer to avoid challenge in the name of efficiency. That's why your Healer is only getting to display a portion of it's potential.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  3. #23
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Oh... and what is a "healer" (or other support toon) to do, when no one needs heals (or other support)?

    "Ok, guys.. I'll just stand back here and hold your capes... let me know if you need anything..... Wait, you just got hit... hold on.. I'm comi... oh... you drank a pot... ok... I'll just wait till next time...."




    (some of my favorite LFMs say "need tank." I guess some people just enjoy making toons that can't kill monsters....)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  4. #24
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    With the notable exception of TEH TROLL, of course .
    He adds J. Its rumored to change something.

  5. #25
    Community Member Koowluh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Oh... and what is a "healer" (or other support toon) to do, when no one needs heals (or other support)?

    "Ok, guys.. I'll just stand back here and hold your capes... let me know if you need anything..... Wait, you just got hit... hold on.. I'm comi... oh... you drank a pot... ok... I'll just wait till next time...."


    (some of my favorite LFMs say "need tank." I guess some people just enjoy making toons that can't kill monsters....)
    My main was actually a healbot before I took a break. Now that I am back, I'm noticing that I am hardly needed at all to heal. Your quote really strikes true here, I'm basically holding people's capes in a lot of parties. This cape-hanger keeps his aura up at all times though which seems to help a lot: people are now used to running back to the guy/girl with the aura if they're in a tight spot instead of yelling 'Hjeal'. The aura itself got a nice boost too.

    So, I find other ways to entertain myself. Red bars full? Doesn't look like they are dropping fast? Great! Divine Punishment on maximized and go. And if I can't find a party, my companions are called Onyx Panther, Owlbear Defender, Owlbear Defender and <insert non-WF fighter/barb hireling's name of appropriate level here> (Still wishing for more permanent gold seal hirelings with a bit more variety). I'll just run the content on a level appropriate for me instead of everything on full. Part of the game is enjoying the quests/storyline instead of the XP and chests popping up in the end.

  6. #26
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Stop generalizing so much, the player base is heterogeneous.

    Some people enjoy being nannybots, some don't, some like to try both.

  7. #27
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    i never accept healbot clerics/fvs to any ee run, biggest waste of spece, runs are much smoother with strong self suffucent dps, but if u cast lot of bladebarriers to grab aggro and kite its nice cc ad dps and implode something its different story...

  8. #28
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    He adds J. Its rumored to change something.
    The "J" is important.

  9. #29
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    Having played a cleric almost exclusively for the past 4 years, I've definitely seen the need for healing continue to trend down.

    Self-sufficiency for a long time was not required, but seen as a bonus.

    But today with Cocoon twist possible, every class is expected and now required in pugs to be self sufficient. Harder EE content like Gianthold, Wheloon, Stormhorns being the only exception, where a healer is in most groups still needed.

    And adding to that raiding is almost dead ATM aside from people running FoT for commendations and people still going after the VoN 6 shards.

    I'm not sure if I like it or now. I think self-sufficiency should be possible for all classes but you should have to give something up to get it. And you have to get up very little to get it today, and practically zero DPS. I'd like to see more things to change that. I don't want there to be any nerfs but what I'd like to see if buffed capstones for barbs/fighters and some new items. How about an epic version of the madstone boots with an epic madstone rage? How about more effects that prohibit spellcasting but give a big DPS boost?

    I'd like to see more of a choice between DPS and survivability, instead of it being required to go for self-sufficiency with every build.

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  10. #30
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nolifer2 View Post
    i never accept healbot clerics/fvs to any ee run, biggest waste of spece, runs are much smoother with strong self suffucent dps, but if u cast lot of bladebarriers to grab aggro and kite its nice cc ad dps and implode something its different story...
    I have to agree with this . . . but it's not the hjealbot's fault most of the time.

    Hjealbots enable bad-play. BYOH weeds out the weak, your BYOH pug wasn't smoother because there was no healer present, it was smoother because the people who joined it were more experienced and knew the meta-gamey tricks needed to make the quest trivial.

    The hjealbot is just a lightning-rod for bad-players.

    That said . . . some of the fastest and smoothest EEs I've ever run have been with a hjealbot, my horc ESOS War-Chanter, and 4 ESOS Barbarians.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 01-06-2014 at 08:42 AM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nolifer2 View Post
    i never accept healbot clerics/fvs to any ee run, biggest waste of spece, runs are much smoother with strong self suffucent dps, but if u cast lot of bladebarriers to grab aggro and kite its nice cc ad dps and implode something its different story...
    Do you ask them or just assume when they click your lfm? There's very very few divines I come across that do nothing but buff and heal. Its always a good thing to have strong self sufficient builds in the group, even with just a healbot in the group, but if someone is watching your back you can focus more on what your build is best at and just keep an eye on your red bar for " oh sh.. moments". Players lose out on some DPS if they have to take care of themselves and help others.

  12. #32
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I'm not sure if I like it or now. I think self-sufficiency should be possible for all classes but you should have to give something up to get it. And you have to get up very little to get it today, and practically zero DPS.

    Yup.

    Cocoon was an easy-button . . . allowed for decent self-healing for all classes except barbarian. No need for UMD, not meed to be a lower DPS class like paladin or ranger, full-retard fighters could not self-heal.


    This was broken.

    So how did Turbine fix it?

    Bladeforged! Who needs a stinkin cocoon when you can have a Reconstruct SLA? Yeah . . . that's balanced.

    And on that note . . . 6 months from now Fleshie-melees will be an endangered species. If you wanna be a hjealbot play a sorc.

  13. #33
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    To the OP:

    I play completely self-sufficient characters. All of them have at least cocoon and 75% boosted no-fail scrolls. One also has massive devotion boosts, Empower Healing, and cure light wounds (doesn't sound like a lot on the CLW but it can matter in between cocoons with high devotion). I'm here to tell you that regardless of how it feels you DO matter. When I have a good healer in the group that I've figured out I can trust it raises the damage on both of my toons by quite a bit. I can focus on positioning/shot or kill selection (depending on whether I'm on my AA or Assassin)/cooldowns on abilities/etc rather than focusing strictly on survival first and damage second. That may sound like a small thing but in some situations that can mean a massive difference in damage output. Now multiply that over 5 other characters and I'd say that despite no one 'needing' a healer a good healer has the same effect that a bard with maxed out songs can have - it multiplies through the group and makes a huge bottom-line difference. Now on ridiculously easy stuff...not really much of a difference. But anywhere that I would have had to heal and you save me worrying about it you've upped my dps and that's your contribution to the bottom line...not mine.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  14. #34
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This was broken.

    So how did Turbine fix it?

    Bladeforged! Who needs a stinkin cocoon when you can have a Reconstruct SLA? Yeah . . . that's balanced.

    And on that note . . . 6 months from now Fleshie-melees will be an endangered species. If you wanna be a hjealbot play a sorc.
    Of course it is OP, compared to other classes. You have to pay for iconic and you have to pay for the hearts.

    If they can monetize something then nothing is OP.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  15. #35
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Of course it is OP, compared to other classes. You have to pay for iconic and you have to pay for the hearts.

    If they can monetize something then nothing is OP.
    Sorry, that doesn't excuse it.

    And don't get me wrong . . I have Bladeforged and will TR something into it very soon. But it's completely ridiculous.

    We never should have been allowed to TR into Iconics.

    It's not talked about as much as most on the forums are under the wrong impression that DC casting is dead . . . but Sun-Elf Wizard is another one that's amusing.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 01-06-2014 at 09:02 AM.

  16. #36
    Community Member Connman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The "J" is important.
    yeah the "J" lets me know you really need a heal, i mean if you have time to carefully spell the word out you must not really need it. :P

    As far as problems with your hjeal bot, just do what i did, grab that +20 heart of wood, that raiders box , and make yourself a monkcher!

    Worked for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    As an aside, our player concurrency numbers didn't show any kind of dip. Player numbers have been fairly consistent and healthy throughout the champions introduction. Sev~

  17. #37
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sorry, that doesn't excuse it.

    And don't get me wrong . . I have Bladeforged and will TR something into it very soon. But it's completely ridiculous.

    We never should have been allowed to TR into Iconics.

    It's not talked about as much as most on the forums are under the wrong impression that DC casting is dead . . . but Sun-Elf Wizard is another one that's amusing.
    If people wanted to play “less than powerful toons” than you would not see so many monks, monk splashes, Shiradi and moncher builds. I am not trying to turn this into a P2W thread, but this is the way the game is.

    Sure some of the cookie cutter builds may love to go slow and play with full groups and dungeon crawl, but many more prefer to get max xp/minute or at the very least not want to build a toon depending on a healer as they would have a harder time finding a healer.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  18. #38
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sorry, that doesn't excuse it.

    And don't get me wrong . . I have Bladeforged and will TR something into it very soon. But it's completely ridiculous.

    We never should have been allowed to TR into Iconics.

    It's not talked about as much as most on the forums are under the wrong impression that DC casting is dead . . . but Sun-Elf Wizard is another one that's amusing.
    Ive been saying it doesnt excuse it for a while now, but theres been full support for character power purchase for a couple of years, and once on that slope, its not going to stop. Im interested to see how hilarious it gets at this point, as each level of new purchasable character power lasts for a quarter or so before the target market is saturated with it. Then Turbine has to up the ante and outdo this current level of character power with more purchasable character power. So office pool? How shameless does it get.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #39
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So office pool? How shameless does it get.
    You can already directly buy XP . . . is there any lower?

    I think we're due for a round of nerfs first. it's gotten stupid recently. I mean if you want to play anything close to a balanced game at all you have to stick to Heroics and that generally too easy to not get boring quickly.

    Then again this is Turbine . . . monkchers, shiradis (I don't agree with this, but it's the perception), and BF melees are OP so naturally Turbine will nerf paladins and bards.

    Though . . . I'd not be shocked to see "Raider's Boxes" in the store at some point.

  20. #40
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    And I need to award both myself and Chai two bonus trolling points for a masterful hijack.

    Anti-BYOH thread becomes about Pay2win.

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