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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I don't think it is WAI but I think you are right, just like with Excoriate, Divine Wrath also isn't distinguishing properly between players and enemies for purposes of counters.
    The behavior is accurate to the description. It doesn't say light based damage spell, it just says light based spell.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    What gets really fun is that if enemies are in a group a DD Cleric can Sun Burst them all and immediately fully charge DW and then follow-up with an immediate DW and rinse-repeat and this is one trick DD Clerics have on FvSs...
    Ah, nice. Thanks for the tip!

  3. #23
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    Unless it was changed, Divine wrath has a 15 second cool down.

  4. #24
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Something interesting to note. A 12 sorc/4 fvs/2 pally could do the 50% vunerability. It would need to go air savant rather than fire savant. The trick would be finding light/sonic spells to charge the EA rebuke.
    Ancient, is the sonic reference a typo? I am not sure what you were getting at with sonic. I haven't done any real testing with sonic spells so I don't really know.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Ancient, is the sonic reference a typo? I am not sure what you were getting at with sonic. I haven't done any real testing with sonic spells so I don't really know.
    The sonic was a typo on my part, the sorc vulnerability can be triggered by electric/sonic, and I was still thinking about that.

  6. #26
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The sonic was a typo on my part, the sorc vulnerability can be triggered by electric/sonic, and I was still thinking about that.
    Cool. I suspected that was the case but I was just making sure there wasn't something else that I missed in the mechanics of the ED:EA... the ED:EA is still one of my favorites and I like the interaction even though it is confusing and frustrating sometimes... The main thing frustrating for me is the targeting of abilities seem different and sometimes it is hard to cast all the various abilities and on top of it mob-movement, lag, &/or anything affecting UMD causes things to miss...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Unless it was changed, Divine wrath has a 15 second cool down.
    AFAIK, you are correct and nothing has changed. I am not sure the context of the discussion above caused you to think that and if something is incorrect in the discussions above (or my understanding) I certainly would like to correct them to not mislead/misguide those that try to adopt the techniques/framework in this thread (and for myself). My best guess is that it was the following exchange preceding your response:
    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze
    ...What gets really fun is that if enemies are in a group a DD Cleric can Sun Burst them all and immediately fully charge DW and then follow-up with an immediate DW and rinse-repeat and this is one trick DD Clerics have on FvSs...
    Ah, nice. Thanks for the tip!
    If that exchange is what caused the confusion, what I meant was that even with no charges when you come up on large group of mobs you can cast Sun-Burst which will immediately fill up your charges and you can immediately follow up with a Divine Wrath. By "rinse, repeat" I meant from there you can look for your next group of mobs (or the same group) and after the 15 second cool down do the same thing and not have to worry about charges decaying in the 15 seconds, even if you followed up with a rebuke and spent all your charges, as the next Sunburst will recharge you flush when in groups of lots of mobs... I love it on with the new quests with lots of tightly grouped mobs (like Friends in Low Places) as on EH and below my max Wis DD Cleric's Sun-Burst sticks quite a bit blinding many and it is great to build up charges fast. I will go back and try to clarify my previous post just in case that was it...

    If the confusion was from other post(s), if you let me know what portion(s) of what post(s) are directly indicating or even alluding to that I will try to go back and correct for clarity.

    Thanks again for all your help !
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-07-2014 at 09:12 AM. Reason: re-read exchange...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    if enemies are in a group a DD Cleric can Sun Burst them all and immediately fully charge DW and then follow-up with an immediate DW and rinse-repeat and this is one trick DD Clerics have on FvSs...
    The rinse and repeat takes at least 15 seconds. If the DW hit at least one mob then it will have 8 charges by the time the 15 seconds are up. (one for the divine wrath, archon every 2 seconds for 14 seconds). It is pretty easy to work two light casts into the 15 second window.

    The DD advantage is going to full from empty against a big group. After that, the FVS has a significant advantage.

  8. #28
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The rinse and repeat takes at least 15 seconds. If the DW hit at least one mob then it will have 8 charges by the time the 15 seconds are up. (one for the divine wrath, archon every 2 seconds for 14 seconds). It is pretty easy to work two light casts into the 15 second window.

    The DD advantage is going to full from empty against a big group. After that, the FVS has a significant advantage.
    Re-read my adjusted tactics post in #16 above as I think I updated it while you were responding to my post #26...

    In scenarios with a Boss/red-named and many mobs, the DD Cleric also has the advantage in the 2nd and subsequent casts when alternating one or more Rebuke-Foes in between Divine-Wraths that also clear your charges as non-meta'ed Sun-Bursts only have a 6-second cool-down and Rebuke-Foe only has a 3-second cool-down (assuming you can handle the agro). If your DC's can stick then the DD's Sun-Burst really shine because of the AoE blinding effects (and re-casts help re-apply or get those who saved on the first cast in addition to doing some damage and refreshing charges).

    EDIT:
    adding chain example when starting with full charges: combo1: DW boss/group (reflushed), Rebuke-Foe boss (dumped), Sun-Burst boss/group (reflushed), Rebuke-Foe boss (dumped),,,Sun-Burst boss/group(reflushed), DW boss/group...

    I think after that, if only using Sun-Burst/Divine-Wrath to generate charges, you could only alternate one rebuke in between with GCDs and regular CDs & what not but you get the idea and the DD doesn't need to do any pew-pew... Most DD-Clerics can also AoE-line Sun-Bolt in the interim to build charges which only pure level 20 PDK FvSs can do...

    For example, in Friends in Low Places I usually re-buff if/as needed and then after talking to the elder I stealth and when the fight starts I send in my OwlBear and look to target the red-named... After the Owlbear starts cleaving if I have found the red-named I start dotting him/her with Divine-Punishment and start pew-pewing to build up charges... When flushed I then really open up with combo1 and then follow-up with combo2 repeatedly until everything is dead (while "hopping around like an old-school arcane" and having my Owl-Bear intimidate/cleave). If needed I back up like an Artificer-with-IPS while targeting the boss I AoE-line Sun-Bolt everything chasing me and then I charge the boss and rebuke/Sun-Burst/Divine-Wrath when the mob of MOBs catches up. Sometimes rubber-banding them is better than circling them... I try to keep the Owl-Bear on the boss and intimidating/cleaving to keep as many of them clustered but essentially rubber-band or circle the rest. It is pretty fun/effective.

    That being said I still prefer my FvS with Archon over my cleric and my cleric cannot do the 100%/50% debuffs for the group... I really like that my Pure-Neutral TWF PDK FvS-20 can both dual-wield Celestia to break all DR (even in ED:EA) and dual-proc AS, and cast fully meta'ed AoE-line Sun-Bolts mana free... Celestia give my FvS the Sun-Bursts but I don't know if those also generate charges but regardless they are great at least for blinding on EH & below... Sadly I think that character is best for EH and below as I would add Paladin-2 or HE with Paladin Dilettante for EE and lose Sun-Bolt &/or dual-Celstia breaking all DR...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-07-2014 at 10:50 AM.

  9. #29

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    Excellent, excellent thread. I want to re-read a few times to digest some the interesting detail, but I have a couple of questions however...

    1. Has it been proven that Divine Wrath can proc Excoriate on Friendly targets in the AoE that receive healing?

    2. I think I missed this in some of the above posts, but does Divine Wrath fill both Righteous Fervour and Endless Ardour stacks, or just Endless Ardor for being a light-based spell?

    3. Does having ranks 2 & 3 of Blood and Radiance in crease the stacks received of EA/RF per light/positive spell cast, as per the DDOwiki? So at Rank 3, a single Renewal would provide 3 stacks of Righteous Fervour?

    Thanks again for an excellent thread!
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  10. #30
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Excellent, excellent thread. I want to re-read a few times to digest some the interesting detail, but I have a couple of questions however...

    1. Has it been proven that Divine Wrath can proc Excoriate on Friendly targets in the AoE that receive healing?

    2. I think I missed this in some of the above posts, but does Divine Wrath fill both Righteous Fervour and Endless Ardour stacks, or just Endless Ardor for being a light-based spell?

    3. Does having ranks 2 & 3 of Blood and Radiance in crease the stacks received of EA/RF per light/positive spell cast, as per the DDOwiki? So at Rank 3, a single Renewal would provide 3 stacks of Righteous Fervour?

    Thanks again for an excellent thread!
    I am glad you like the thread. I felt it was such amazing information that I had to write it down to extrapolate it. I have done some basic testing of the above and seen the stacks and what not on red-named but only with my duo (having my other accounts parked at the entrance) and it is hard for me to test everything by myself. Unfortunately I don't really raid myself much so I can't truly leverage it across many folk but I may start joining some raids just to fully test the above.

    When I get a chance I will try to confirm each of the following with recent tests but from memory the following are my initial responses:

    1. - I have only read that in other threads and since I didn't think it would be funny I haven't tested it with real people. If I can figure out a way to test it I will and get back to you (I do have 6 accounts that I can login with at the same time but I can only be active on one at a time and only see the buffs/debuffs on the one that I am on unless I am examining a party member).

    2. - I think it only counts as a Light cast but will try to verify. I don't really pay attention to healing counters as I am pretty much always maxed.

    3. - No I am pretty sure it only give you 1 counter per cast and the additional ranks increase the value of those counters. So at Rank 1 with 10 counters you get +10 spell power and with Rank 3 those same counters give you +30 spell power. That being said, if you case a mass heal it may give you multiple counters if it hits multiple targets... I honestly don't really play much attention to those as I typically keep myself HoT'ed with Renewal at all times when moving though the dungeon which keeps me at max counters and I don't consume them keeping the bonus at max and to avoid the stuns...

    Speaking of the Excoriate stunning friendlies... If it is confirmed a bug it is a shame because a no-fail save stun to many mobs would be awesome for EE. One idea I had to mitigate it, and in keeping with the "Light theme", is to run a "Light monk +100% Damage build" and do that move that gives everyone stun immunity for 60secs so I can run with Excoriate and I also would try to work in that T5 monk move that lets me stack 10d6 Light damage per tick as with ~+100% that will be ~20d6 of Light damage on top of any Divine Punishments... I don't have much experience with Monks but I like the idea looking at their trees and studying the ddowiki...

    I will try to get in game with my multiple accounts and do more testing to fully confirm but those are my initial responses from often-flawed memory...

    EDIT: Speaking of testing... Can anyone think of an easy place to get to that has a static portal or pillar who could stand in as a static mob with tons of hit points? I have been using the werewolves but they fight back and it is hard to pay attention to everything when getting hit. The portal in the wilderness to get to the shroud was the first one that came to mind as it would be easy to clear to get to it but I don't know if that is a 100% spawn or a rare and is still a semi trek... I think there may be some in one of the artificer dungeons but I can't remember how much I would have to clear to get to it to test... Just curious if there is an easy one to get to with lots of hit points so I could have enough random samples verify percentages in the wiki...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-08-2014 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #31
    Community Member galei's Avatar
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    Aussircaex's Valley? always has portal spawn.

  12. #32
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galei View Post
    Aussircaex's Valley? always has portal spawn.
    +1 for you! My memory isn't always great but I am pretty sure that's the one that always spawns that I couldn't remember the name/location of. Should be much better than having to clear the Vale of Twilight to look for the rare to close the portal to Shavarath that may or may not be there and better than letting Werewolves beat on you...

    This should be a better place to test for the stuns and also should allow controlled testing of the Rebuke Foe & Vulnerable affects. The only negative that I can see is that the Angel of Vengeance (AoV) Shield of Condemnation (SoC) requires the mob to hit you (or the target you transferred the Crown of Retribution (CoR) to) multiple times to get the stacks for the +50% Light & Alignment Damage as well as the -50% Fortification.

    Can anyone think of a way to "make" an inanimate object like a 'Planar Gateway' affect you so that it can get Condemned by the AoV's SoC/CoR?

    The only thing that I can think of is maybe a Viscous type effect but my suspicion is that the source of damage in that case will be the weapon or yourself and not the enemy/object you are striking (don't know)... That or some other ability that allows you to hit the enemy but gives them an automatic attack or damage affect back to you 'like a reverse riposte' or 'grants the enemy target riposte effect' may give the target an attack back to you to get the de-buff... Too bad we don't have a player initiated 'Animate Object' spell/cantrip.

    Can anyone think of an alternative, preferably stationary/very-slow monster with large pool of hitpoints that hits back (at most fairly softly as having to do self healing will trigger counters)? Maybe a Boss from low level heroic Raid like Chronoscope or just a red-named from a Heroic quest known for lots of hit-points but not really that high DPS even at the lower levels when it was played at the designed level... That would allow me to confirm all the de-buffs and maybe even also the Excoriate stuns without too much else going on. I would likely be testing this with a level 24 character with 20FvS levels and I could bring my self-healing Radiant-Savant intimi-tank which is also 24 with 6Paladin/13Cleric/1Fighter to try to control agro and use the aura to heal through most things if the damage ins't to high and I can stay in one place (can't to play on both characters at the same time but I can switch back and forth periodically to restart the aura or what not and if needed have auto attack on the tank).
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-09-2014 at 06:43 AM.

  13. #33

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    thanks for the feedback, Nodoze.

    I'm asking these questions because I'm looking for ways to make Blood & Radiance work on a Paladin, believe it or not. I'm essentially looking for easier ways to keep those counters charged, as at the end of the day everytime I'm casting spells I'm not swinging Weapons for Melee DPS.

    That said, Renewal is a great, cheap spell, and as you've pointed out previous running this in combat is essentially giving yourself a form of PRR/Damage Soak. This would mean keeping Righteous Fervour stacks up high and using Strike Down reasonably often.

    I've looked at splashing Cleric for Ameliorating Strike/Positive Energy Aura for continual Righteous Fervour stacks, but these do not work (and to be honest I wasn't expecting it with Positive Energy Aura being nerfed to prevent spirit gain for Primal Avatar).

    I'm guessing however that getting Endless Ardor stacks charged up with Avenging Light is the way to go and then pop off Divine Wrath at opportune moments to instantly regain a bunch of Endless Ardor stacks helps on this side - but I don't want to do this while having Excoriate and Strike Down to start stunning friendlies with Divine Wrath!

    Then chuck on top of that the micro-management of the stacks along with the short duration buffs of a Paladin alongside a 2min Divine Might and I'm really wondering if its worth persuing this.

    Still, Rebuke Foe seems like an excellent opportunity with Strike Down in the Mix
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Can anyone think of an alternative, preferably stationary/very-slow monster with large pool of hitpoints that hits back (at most fairly softly as having to do self healing will trigger counters)? Maybe a Boss from low level heroic Raid like Chronoscope or just a red-named from a Heroic quest known for lots of hit-points but not really that high DPS even at the lower levels when it was played at the designed level... That would allow me to confirm all the de-buffs and maybe even also the Excoriate stuns without too much else going on.
    Warlock Sobrien, Claw of Vulkoor - almost right at the star tof the quest and has no extra mobs around him for more headaches. Gets bonus points for being Orange-named and thus vulnerable to Stuns.

    /EndSearch
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  15. #35
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Warlock Sobrien, Claw of Vulkoor - almost right at the star tof the quest and has no extra mobs around him for more headaches. Gets bonus points for being Orange-named and thus vulnerable to Stuns.

    /EndSearch
    Thanks I will look into that as it would be good to have one place to do full testing all the de-buffs and verify the stuns using my 24 FvS (almost 26 but banking XP)... Worst case if we find the stuns are happening then maybe the raid leader can bring a monk to the raid procing stun immunity every 60 seconds. That or bring a light monk build that can both excoriate and give immunity as the same time and thus give the raid continuous AoE stun immunity...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-09-2014 at 11:33 AM.

  16. #36
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    thanks for the feedback, Nodoze.

    I'm asking these questions because I'm looking for ways to make Blood & Radiance work on a Paladin, believe it or not. I'm essentially looking for easier ways to keep those counters charged, as at the end of the day everytime I'm casting spells I'm not swinging Weapons for Melee DPS.

    That said, Renewal is a great, cheap spell, and as you've pointed out previous running this in combat is essentially giving yourself a form of PRR/Damage Soak. This would mean keeping Righteous Fervour stacks up high and using Strike Down reasonably often.

    I've looked at splashing Cleric for Ameliorating Strike/Positive Energy Aura for continual Righteous Fervour stacks, but these do not work (and to be honest I wasn't expecting it with Positive Energy Aura being nerfed to prevent spirit gain for Primal Avatar).

    I'm guessing however that getting Endless Ardor stacks charged up with Avenging Light is the way to go and then pop off Divine Wrath at opportune moments to instantly regain a bunch of Endless Ardor stacks helps on this side - but I don't want to do this while having Excoriate and Strike Down to start stunning friendlies with Divine Wrath!

    Then chuck on top of that the micro-management of the stacks along with the short duration buffs of a Paladin alongside a 2min Divine Might and I'm really wondering if its worth persuing this.

    Still, Rebuke Foe seems like an excellent opportunity with Strike Down in the Mix
    At least looking at the wiki, once you have 5-10 Righteous-Fevor stacks any light spell effect or smite has a 3% chance to stun opponents for 6 seconds... With stacks decaying at 10 second intervals you could up to 50 seconds with no heal casts and still get the benefits...

    As long as you had 5 or more charges, I suspect all of the following are likely to have a 3% chance of no-save stunning in EE on each of the following:
    -*Divine Wraths AoE;
    -Sun-Bursts AoE;
    -Sun-Bolt AoE-line;
    - the Archon repeated pew-pew;
    - other pew-pew light (AL,SL,SLsla,Sunbeam,?) (but not Nimbus of Light);
    -Divine Punishment ticks (likely red-named immune and fairly mana intensive);

    It would also be interesting to know if any of the following light effects/smites also proc stuns:
    - EA:ED's Smite the Wicked;
    - EA:ED's Strike Down (curious if radiant aura generates counters);
    - Paladin Divine Sacrifice (very interested);
    - Paladin Smite Evil (too few);

    I marked Divine Wrath with an * because even though it heals players I now understand that it typed as a Light spell (thanks to Ancient's knowledge) which is why players were getting stunned by Excoriate. AFAIK it is the only one in the list above that may be stunning players.

    Giving no-fail stuns on EE is pretty sweet (even if random) so it would be nice to know what combos for sure proc it and if there are ways to mitigate the stun to players from Divine Wrath (assuming it is indeed happening).
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-09-2014 at 11:36 AM.

  17. #37
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I do love the laser builds.

    Have you looked at morninglord?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #38
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    At least looking at the wiki, once you have 5-10 Righteous-Fevor stacks any light spell effect or smite has a 3% chance to stun opponents for 6 seconds... With stacks decaying at 10 second intervals you could up to 50 seconds with no heal casts and still get the benefits...

    As long as you had 5 or more charges, I suspect all of the following are likely to have a 3% chance of no-save stunning in EE on each of the following:
    -*Divine Wraths AoE;
    -Sun-Bursts AoE;
    -Sun-Bolt AoE-line;
    - the Archon repeated pew-pew;
    - other pew-pew light (AL,SL,SLsla,Sunbeam,?) (but not Nimbus of Light);
    -Divine Punishment ticks (likely red-named immune and fairly mana intensive);

    It would also be interesting to know if any of the following light effects/smites also proc stuns:
    - EA:ED's Smite the Wicked;
    - EA:ED's Strike Down (curious if radiant aura generates counters);
    - Paladin Divine Sacrifice (very interested);
    - Paladin Smite Evil (too few);

    I marked Divine Wrath with an * because even though it heals players I now understand that it typed as a Light spell (thanks to Ancient's knowledge) which is why players were getting stunned by Excoriate. AFAIK it is the only one in the list above that may be stunning players.

    Giving no-fail stuns on EE is pretty sweet (even if random) so it would be nice to know what combos for sure proc it and if there are ways to mitigate the stun to players from Divine Wrath (assuming it is indeed happening).
    How does this interact w/ weapons that proc sunburst like phosphor?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  19. #39
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quickly took my RS/DD cleric in primal avatar ED into the kings forest in I was still gaining 'strength of spirit' counters with my pets around and stayed between 29/30 as long as my aura was active.

    I stepped back out and switched to ED:EA and after going back into the kings forest I confirmed that neither Radiant Aura casts nor ticks nor Radiant Bursts give you any counters (can't remember if they ever did)... A fairly cheap Mass-Cure-Light-Wounds as well as Mass-Heal both generated one charge per target (got 4 with my owlbear, panther, Hezrou, and myself) so you could get flush in a Raid with any of those pretty quickly.

    EDIT: My normal method of keeping the HoT renewal on myself still works to generate counters...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-09-2014 at 12:08 PM.

  20. #40
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    How does this interact w/ weapons that proc sunburst like phosphor?
    I tested it with my TWF 20 FVS with Celestia beating on the werewolves and did not see any counters from the Celestia's Greater-Sun-Burst procs... Mobs do seem to be blinded but the weapon also has Radiance so it is hard to know for sure which blinded. I didn't test a ton but it looks like, while Celestia is awesome, it doesn't generate counters. I suspect it is because it is spell the weapon casts not a spell you cast but not 100% sure.

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