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  1. #1
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    Default Tanks, but no tanks!

    In the early days of ddo, before it was possible to hit 400 hp or pull 80 ac by level 10, a welcome sight at any quest was to see a fighter or paladin show up with a shield equipped. Now if your a fighter or paladin and show up with a shield for a pug group your just likely to get kicked from group.
    This is more the case the higher the level as a properly built wf sorc or wiz can tank a mob as easily as any Stalwart or defender can with 1 huge difference, the caster can lay down 10-100 times more dps while tanking.

    Ive got a lvl 27 wf sorc that I roll with, not so much as I enjoy the class better than others but because I can solo most content on EN or EH and run 2-3 quests before having to re buff at ship.

    Im not suggesting in any way to lower the playability of any class, but improve the fun factor of some.

    Sure a stalwart defender or a defender of syberis(sacred defender) can solo any content well enough, but for a quest I can solo with my sorc in 15 minutes, it might take a hour+ on a fighter or pally to complete.

    Even tho they are absolutely slow I personally love paladins with a shield and sword(I personally think pally's should get b-sword as a granted feat), I played a pally from beta simply cause my play times never seemed to work well with the rest of the active ddo population and soloing was possible and fun. Now a pally is just drag to play unless multiclassed with everything else to make it viable.

    But what this is about is Tanks. Sword and board. Stand there and intimi and take everything that's thrown at them laugh and ask for more.

    So what to do, what to do. My thought for Stalwart defender and Sacred Defender's is possibly adding a new item to the tree's, damage reflection.
    I know that there are already enhancements that have a chance of damaging attackers "while blocking" but seriously if your blocking your not fighting, and if your a tank and fighting your not doing that much damage. So either way your just gimped.
    The damage reflection would work as a toggle with up to 3 ranks, Rank 1 your ac is decreased by 20% and your prr is increased by 20% and while this is toggled on any damage absorbed by damage reduction of any nature is reflected back at the attacker with a increase to damage modified by your prr as if it were a spell power. This also has a 50% effectiveness with any spells cast on you. Rank 2 decreases ac by another 20% and increases prr by a additional 20%. Rank 3 decreases ac by another 20% and increases prr by another 20%.

    It would be nice if this required a core ability, so levels would have to be invested instead of just mixing in 2 levels of fighter or paladin.

    As example of what I am suggesting:
    Character has 100 ac and prr at rank 3 of damage reflection and while toggled on the characters ac would drop from 100 to 80, then 80 to 64, then 64 to 51, while the prr would go from 100-120, 120 -144, 144-173.
    So character would have 64 ac and 173 prr. If character was attacked successfully for 100 points of damage while blocking and say damage reduction from blocking and other effects not including prr was 25, then the character would take about 46% damage of 75 or 34 points of damage. The 66 points of damage would then be reflected back at the attacker at "Damage x (prr/100)". So that would be 66 x 1.73, attacker would take 114 damage.

    As I was saying this would be half effective for spells cast against this character. With 173 prr, this character would be able to shrug off 23% of incoming magic damage and reflect it back at the caster with the increase to damage according to its prr rating acting as a spell power. So if the character has 40 cold resist and has a polar ray cast at it that does 100 damage, The character has "shield deflection" and is using a tower shield which absorbs 40% of incoming elemental damage and is blocking. Then 40 would get eatin up right away by the cold resist, then another 24 points would be absorbed from shield deflection thus the character would take 36 points cold damage, this means that 64 points od cold damage is reflected back at the caster at a rate of 64 X 1.73. The caster would take 110 points of cold damage before any resists.

    So any way this was a idea I had on how to give those tanks out there a edge that makes them useful again.

  2. #2
    Community Member Arianka's Avatar
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    simple solution i think would be to allow a sacred defender or stalwart defender to have both power attack and combat expertees to be on at the same time as there level 12 core ability (make sure shield req. is met tho). that would help out a lot i think.
    Last edited by Arianka; 01-04-2014 at 01:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    Well the only problem I see with that is at higher levels, standard mobs with 3k+ hp's, the extra damage from power attack really doesn't help much. A extra 5 pt's damage per swing, when your doing 100 pts damage a pop or so, means you might have to hit the mob 29.5 times instead of 30 times to kill it. And considering on how slow the attacks are for sword and board, unless you use up all of your smites and such on 1 mob to slowly progress thru the rest power attack isn't that helpful on a tank/

  4. #4

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    What about adding proficiencies to the core abilities?

    Sacred Defender core 6: grants Tower Shield Proficiency
    Sacred Defender AND Stalwart Defender core 12: grants Bastard Sword proficiency

  5. #5
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    The whole defensive system needs to be scrapped and revised, preferably by somebody who hates monks.

  6. #6
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    And yeah I know you can bump up the total dps you can do with cleave/ great cleave and various racial power attack enhancements and ed enhancements. But a tank isn't so much about not getting hit, as not being hurt as much when you do get hit, so if you invest into raising damage then you effectively become half as useful as a full dps/ and half as usefull as a tank. Which considering means your now worth half of half as much.

    Ive got a 16 monk/3 pally/1 fighter tha unarmed does roughly 90 points bludgeoning damage a hit besides for the procs and such. And in its case yes power attack is usefull because of the higher rate of hits per second.

    Now combat expertise doesn't make as much sense on a tank as it used to, especially for a feat stressed paladin but maybe better for a fighter. 5% ac when you can hold back the int points required to take it for con or charisma, seing as skills can be augmented to a obscene amount with items, the need for int on a pally isn't so much.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The whole defensive system needs to be scrapped and revised, preferably by somebody who hates monks.
    Heh, I agree to a extent with the need of revision to the defensive system, thus this thread being here in the first place. By someone who hates monks? Eh I like monks.

    Seems like generally the only reason someone will make a pure tank now is for numbers. So they can say they have a character with 2k hps/ 200+ ac and or prr that is effectively useless in any quest as they are trying to intimidate mobs, the sorcs have already rolled thru and killed em all.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vornado View Post
    Heh, I agree to a extent with the need of revision to the defensive system, thus this thread being here in the first place. By someone who hates monks? Eh I like monks.

    Seems like generally the only reason someone will make a pure tank now is for numbers. So they can say they have a character with 2k hps/ 200+ ac and or prr that is effectively useless in any quest as they are trying to intimidate mobs, the sorcs have already rolled thru and killed em all.
    When I still had a stalwart it was useful in "bad" groups . . . but by now the FOTM builds have spread to the point where they simply aren't needed anymore.

  9. #9
    Community Member Arianka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vornado View Post
    Well the only problem I see with that is at higher levels, standard mobs with 3k+ hp's, the extra damage from power attack really doesn't help much. A extra 5 pt's damage per swing, when your doing 100 pts damage a pop or so, means you might have to hit the mob 29.5 times instead of 30 times to kill it.
    its more damage then that if you have LD improved power attack power or twisted in.if your using a basterd sword that +1d5 damage (+3 on average) for +8 damage total. if your WF, BF, or HO and have their racial improved power attack to, that another 3 damage. total extra damage potetnial of +11 per swing. thats nothing to laff at.

  10. #10
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    IMO, it is just a final consequence of epic wards. When mobs are basically immune to everything you can throw at them (by plain immunity or unrealistic save numbers), the only thing that matters is DPS. Every time the game focused on plain DPS, tanks lagged behind, unless they were REALLY required at some popular raid.

    Sully, Horoth, and LoB were all good "tanky" bosses. Sure, a barbarian being instahealed could work, but a true tank would make the whole experience much easier. FoT tried to be a tanky raid, but with all gear required to be reasonably tanky nowadays and still have decent DPS (plus the tank ED being ONLY good for tanking), people found out wys to tank them with their usual high DPS toons.

    If the next new raid become somewhat good with tank-types, you might see them raising up again. But with everything required to slot today (AC, saves, dodge, PRR, ghostly, blurry), it would STILL be easier for your typical sorc 18/Pal 2 to slot everything instead of your usually MAD Sacred Defender.

    Tanking will stay dead until Turbine make them relevant again, AND stock some crazy good tank buffs on higher levels to avoid class dips for 80% effectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    What about adding proficiencies to the core abilities?

    Sacred Defender core 6: grants Tower Shield Proficiency
    Sacred Defender AND Stalwart Defender core 12: grants Bastard Sword proficiency
    Sacred Defender AND Stalwart Defender core 18: Allow all non-light one-handed weapons to be considered a two-handed weapon (double power attack bonus, 1.5x STR modifier to damage) while using a shield.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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  11. #11
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    Im not saying power attack doesn't help, im just saying that even+11 damage per swing isn't enough to offset the difference in dps enough to make tanks viable for anything other than just highest numbers for ac/ prr/ or health.

  12. #12
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    Tanks are no longer viable atm. There are serious issues with hate gen and dps that are only getting worse as time passes and incite gear isnt stacking now either. So any 'tank' is only going to be good for an intim and nothing else.
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  13. #13
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    Or maybe a slightly different spin would be, to change the greater defensive stance a bit:
    These would grant additional bonuses if you possess the "Divine might" enhancement from the kotc tree.

    3 different enhancements as there already are except they might look more like this:

    Greater sacred defense:

    Divine nobility: You gain a bonus to charisma equal to 20%/40%/60% of your total paladin level. If you posses the divine might enhancement, while active grants its bonus to all abilities except charisma. Also gain 1 use of turn undead.

    Divine defense: Grants a percentage bonus to armor class and physical resistance equal to 20%/40%/60% of your paladin level + your charisma modifier. If you possess divine might and while active also gain this percentage boost to your maximum hp.Also gain 1 use of turn undead.

    Divine retribution: Grants a percentage increase to attack speed and doublestrike chance equal to 5%/10%/15% of your total paladin level + your charisma modifier. If you posses the divine might enhancement and while active you gain a percentage chance to completely negate damage or penalties from both physical and magical sources and rebound them at the attacker equal to your charisma modifier. Also gain 1 use of turn undead.

  14. #14
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    When I still had a stalwart it was useful in "bad" groups . . . but by now the FOTM builds have spread to the point where they simply aren't needed anymore.
    Yeah. This has been my experience as well on my paladin. In the past, if I got into a weak group, I could use aggro-grabbing mechanics like Intimidate and Divine Righteousness to direct a situation, and ease an encounter.

    Now, the defensive abilities on my tank aren't sufficient to deal with that kind of situation anymore much of the time, and there are almost always better options in the group (kiting, or enormous bursts of DPS).
    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    IMO, it is just a final consequence of epic wards. When mobs are basically immune to everything you can throw at them (by plain immunity or unrealistic save numbers), the only thing that matters is DPS. Every time the game focused on plain DPS, tanks lagged behind, unless they were REALLY required at some popular raid.
    This hasn't been my experience.

    When the cap was 20, Shavarath was new, and few casters could land any CC thanks to the high saves and SR on the monster we fought, having a tank was very useful, because it acted as a form of CC that didn't care about saves or SR. It still required healing, but a character could build for that.

    The difference we have in the game now, is that either encounters are too easy to warrant including someone lowering their DPS by holding a shield for any reason (they can go along, but all they're doing is slowing things down), or too difficult for the benefits of holding a shield to stack up against those of simply killing something faster (AC is largely meaningless, and when things are hitting for hundreds of points of damage, even after PRR, holding aggro of multiple creatures becomes untenable, even with a dedicated healer along).
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  15. #15
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Yeah. This has been my experience as well on my paladin. In the past, if I got into a weak group, I could use aggro-grabbing mechanics like Intimidate and Divine Righteousness to direct a situation, and ease an encounter.

    Now, the defensive abilities on my tank aren't sufficient to deal with that kind of situation anymore much of the time, and there are almost always better options in the group (kiting, or enormous bursts of DPS).


    This hasn't been my experience.

    When the cap was 20, Shavarath was new, and few casters could land any CC thanks to the high saves and SR on the monster we fought, having a tank was very useful, because it acted as a form of CC that didn't care about saves or SR. It still required healing, but a character could build for that.

    The difference we have in the game now, is that either encounters are too easy to warrant including someone lowering their DPS by holding a shield for any reason (they can go along, but all they're doing is slowing things down), or too difficult for the benefits of holding a shield to stack up against those of simply killing something faster (AC is largely meaningless, and when things are hitting for hundreds of points of damage, even after PRR, holding aggro of multiple creatures becomes untenable, even with a dedicated healer along).
    sad but true...

    in the harbor, running around with a door strapped to your arm meant something, 6 years ago...
    with all the changes it was considered wiser to have evasion, high saves, blur&displacement& shipbuffs to avoid damage.
    Now we run in 6 man pew pew mode, cause the quest takes less time then 1 healer, 1 tank, 4 whatever

  16. #16
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Intim as a skill is on the same scale as perform. Both fascinate and intim are unneeded as CC in the current game due to how "slow" they are compared to DPS output, how easily they break (fascinate) and how much having one impacts your other abilities (are they worth a DPS loss) ... they "slow" down your DPS too, making you not as quick of a solo-er as a more DPS focused build.

    And, when that DPS focus build has great defenses too - you're really unnecessary.

    We need different / better encounter designs. We need difficult mobs to have some random defenses that make them resistant to (but not blanket-immune-to) things ... deathward, fom, pro-good/evil, etc. We could also use more mobs to have more specific always-on defenses as well. I wouldn't mind if all of mob type X came with FOM, all of type Y came with Deathward ... and we need more mobs to fast-cast buffs when they activate (mass DW, mass SR, etc.) Challenge us so that the more generic / general classes don't always work (but work well enough most of the time).

    DPS always works.

    It would be nice if CC or instakill didn't always work from generalists, but if you could build CC / etc. to nearly always work from a focused-specialist like a bard or timmy (and if fascinate / enthrall weren't one-hit wonders).

    As it is, Shiradi always works "eventually", QP / Stunning Fist are stratospheric and the best monk defensive stance is also basically the best offensive stance.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  17. #17
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    make all EE mobs imune to ranged attacks and see the return of tanks

  18. #18
    Community Member die's Avatar
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    just get a clr in the group or fvs and have them run grab every thing and throw a BB go look at your face book account then collect your loots
    Kahzadoom~Xzr~Irondoom~Doomlord~XvKing DoomHammer~
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  19. #19
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    Time when tanks were needed

    2006
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Qo0rlRrfc

    92 hp for lvl 10 character. Now probably even totally new players with no gear have more hp.


    p.s.

    2 prev.poster: why would clerics ever bother to heal if they can just easily solo quest themselves?

  20. #20
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    omg, that stamp sized vid gives me a headache!
    How did you game back then???
    i must be spoiled...
    Last edited by lyrecono; 01-08-2014 at 05:23 AM.

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