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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Oh wait.

    Raid Timer Bypasses are something the players have been asking for, for a long time. They Finally giving it to us, is not P2W, sorry.

    If you had used something we never wanted to be in the store, being in the store, and only in the store, you would have a point, but for years "Raid timer bypass" was listed on pretty much every "Shut up and take my money" topic ever, and most topics about raids in general.

    Players said they would be glad to buy such a thing, and now, it's P2W, sorry, that one does not fly.
    Though that does lead to the questions of what was the point of the raid timers and why do the store bypasses supersede it?

  2. #122
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Though that does lead to the questions of what was the point of the raid timers and why do the store bypasses supersede it?
    It's a very generic "sub based" style stop gap, to function as a time sink, much the say way timed rare spawns worked in open world games.

    In simple terms, 3 days would mean it would take a person roughly 1 year to run a raid 100 times, couple that with a 1% drop rate, and you get the idea that each raid on average was designed to tie up a player for 1 year of their life going after the "uberz loots"

    Thus they 'buy time" between content updates, so that by the time they can get the next big raid/event thing out, the power gamers are just about finishing up ransacking the previous raid, and have maybe even begun to teach the unwashed masses how to beat it.

    At this late in the game, with many older and less run raids, coupled with the catastrophic mess they had done in the past with loot gen outclassing raid loot, and the ETR/ED/TR system designed to millstone the masses, Raid's no longer need to function as a stop gap, however, they are not going to remove the wait, because when they do put out a raid, they want it to take time to be beaten, they want it to occupy time, till they get something else going.

    Bypass timers, as irony would have it also fund the "next" raid, by the volume of people willing to buy/sell/use them, this shows in money metrics, that Raids are profitable beyond simply the sale of the pack.

    It's quite involved, if the people behind the wheel know what they are looking at, and what they should be looking for.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It's a very generic "sub based" style stop gap, to function as a time sink, much the say way timed rare spawns worked in open world games.

    In simple terms, 3 days would mean it would take a person roughly 1 year to run a raid 100 times, couple that with a 1% drop rate, and you get the idea that each raid on average was designed to tie up a player for 1 year of their life going after the "uberz loots"

    Thus they 'buy time" between content updates, so that by the time they can get the next big raid/event thing out, the power gamers are just about finishing up ransacking the previous raid, and have maybe even begun to teach the unwashed masses how to beat it.

    At this late in the game, with many older and less run raids, coupled with the catastrophic mess they had done in the past with loot gen outclassing raid loot, and the ETR/ED/TR system designed to millstone the masses, Raid's no longer need to function as a stop gap, however, they are not going to remove the wait, because when they do put out a raid, they want it to take time to be beaten, they want it to occupy time, till they get something else going.

    Bypass timers, as irony would have it also fund the "next" raid, by the volume of people willing to buy/sell/use them, this shows in money metrics, that Raids are profitable beyond simply the sale of the pack.

    It's quite involved, if the people behind the wheel know what they are looking at, and what they should be looking for.
    Makes sense until they get used to circumvent the time sink on that new raid (as they seem to have done with FoT) then they just shorten the time needed to put out the next one or players get bored and leave. Also, the raids in this game really aren't involved enough for the "unwashed masses" to need to wait a year to be shown how they go.

  4. #124
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    iirc, that "bypass" was a bug or a unintended byproduct.
    No, I'm not talking about the exploit that the devs found out about and then put them on sale before discontinuing them. I'm talking about whatever legitimately allowed you to skip having to "cross" EDs to get to sphere's. That was in there from day one, so that people could buy their way pass having to work around the destiny map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    However, ED's are a great example of time sinks, I mean, look at it like this, it's not that each sphere takes the same amount of exp, it's that you have to move from one sphere to another, to another, in a order, and you need to get so much exp to move off a sphere, this is a prime example of a time sink, pretty much you are "Winning levels in Mario Kingdom" with each sphere you complete allowing you to move to the next one.
    Yes, I understand the "philosophy" behind it. And I think it's bull. I think you're giving them way too much credit. For one thing, as far as being a timesink, Fate Points require xp to unlock, thus it is already set up as a timesink. Coupling it to also needing to jump around to different EDs, so that you can keep earning xp that can be used towards Fate Points, is what I find incredibly bad about the design. It's one thing encourage trying different things by not penalizing doing so (it would have been bad for experimenting if the design would not allow you to earn xp towards Fate Points when you were out of your destiny or sphere), it's another to penalize you for remaining in the destiny you like by not allowing progress towards Fate Points when it's maxed.

    So where is the timesink in earning Fate Points by leveling off-destinies, as opposed to earning Fate Points in a destiny you actually want to be in?

    If it takes as much xp either way then the time is relatively the same. Leveling off-destinies to earn Fate Points doesn't take longer than if you could've done it in a good destiny. It just means that you yo-yo all over the place in powers and abilities. That's great if you feel like experimenting. Not so great if you don't.

    Just answer this if you can: What is the inherent timesink involved in leveling off-destinies to gain Fate Points, that could not have been accomplished by allowing you to be in whatever destiny you want to rather than what is left over, to accumulate xp and earn Fate Points?

  5. #125
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Makes sense until they get used to circumvent the time sink on that new raid (as they seem to have done with FoT) then they just shorten the time needed to put out the next one or players get bored and leave. Also, the raids in this game really aren't involved enough for the "unwashed masses" to need to wait a year to be shown how they go.
    In a Micro-Transaction based game, there is no longer a need to have any stop gaps at all, a hefty price tag on the Raid Itself would function better then a 3 day timer, a 1 day timer would be enough to keep up the sale of Raid Timers, as people make mistakes, and those mistakes should cost them. But, even with that premise, a hefty price tag (lets say around 8 dollars per) the power players would still buy it day 1 to quickly ransack it. Assuming the gear/items in it were both worth going after and took long enough to accumulate , by the time the casual/moderates got around to buying/running it, it would be just falling out favor as the best of the best, with just a few hold outs who have bad luck on the RNG left to show the next batch how to beat it.

  6. #126
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    snip
    So we should be happy that Turbine put out a terrible new hamster wheel knowing that they would charge us to make it what we want? Why not skip the middle man and just put out a system people would like?

    Don’t act like they are doing us any favors. The only, and I mean only reason we got the raid bypass is because it was something they could monetize. For years they refused to give us what we wanted (bypass) because it was game breaking. When they found a way to monetize it, then miraculously it was not game breaking? LMAO.
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  7. #127
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    So we should be happy that Turbine put out a terrible new hamster wheel knowing that they would charge us to make it what we want? Why not skip the middle man and just put out a system people would like?

    Don’t act like they are doing us any favors. The only, and I mean only reason we got the raid bypass is because it was something they could monetize. For years they refused to give us what we wanted (bypass) because it was game breaking. When they found a way to monetize it, then miraculously it was not game breaking? LMAO.
    Vint, in the future, can you at least give a little bit more info on which of my posts you are citing then -snip-, especially if I have several posts, pretty close together.

    As for why Turbine is not giving you exactly what you want, I have no earthly clue, I do not work for Turbine, If I did, then I could provide you an answer.

  8. #128
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I heard of a video game like that, but I did not bother to play it.

    Remember wondering whether you should use haste, or comparing the unlimited levels of a human to the long life of an elf?
    the key was when one group of your adventurers were starting to get old you would take half of them into the dungeon with half a noob party and power level away.

    swap the gear from the old geezers to the freshly leveled noobs and then retire the geezers.

    It was quite annoying having to do this over and over as you advanced through the game.

  9. #129
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Just answer this if you can: What is the inherent timesink involved in leveling off-destinies to gain Fate Points, that could not have been accomplished by allowing you to be in whatever destiny you want to rather than what is left over, to accumulate xp and earn Fate Points?
    Sometimes, the biggest problem people make is they ask the wrong question and then get upset with the answer.

    What if, lets say, the fate points were an after thought? That they were tacked on, at the end, as a means to cling to some of what you have already done like a "mini-past-life-feat" , as opposed to them being the main carrot you have made it out to be.

    Would the system make more sense to you, if Fate points were really intended to be nothing more then novelty proxy "epic past life feats" allowing you to cling to what you have already done while you are 'working through' something else?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    You don't really think that Turbine would release such a Gem of XP Storage without a hefty price tag, do you?
    You miss the point. P2W = Ottos Boxes where you actually bypass content with nothing other than RL $. A storage XP bank would not be P2W, but more of a convenience item. Call it correctly before you flame the idea.

  11. #131
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    You miss the point. P2W = Ottos Boxes where you actually bypass content with nothing other than RL $. A storage XP bank would not be P2W, but more of a convenience item. Call it correctly before you flame the idea.
    of course it would be. this idea wouldn't be given to us for free and you would use the xp banked to bypass content. more likely, the levels and content you find irritating or not fun.
    Gary Gygax quotes

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    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

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  12. #132
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    of course it would be. this idea wouldn't be given to us for free and you would use the xp banked to bypass content. more likely, the levels and content you find irritating or not fun.
    Yep lets call it Pay to Play in Primary Destiny

  13. #133

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    I'm rather concerned about the art work of said item:



    ...make it purple...

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    of course it would be. this idea wouldn't be given to us for free and you would use the xp banked to bypass content. more likely, the levels and content you find irritating or not fun.
    The difference being one would need to run something else, presumably something they did find fun, to have the xp to skip the part they don't.

    I really don't see whats wrong with that, but I'm one who thinks players should have the ability to customize their play experience in a way that maximizes the fun parts.

  15. #135
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Sometimes, the biggest problem people make is they ask the wrong question and then get upset with the answer.

    What if, lets say, the fate points were an after thought? That they were tacked on, at the end, as a means to cling to some of what you have already done like a "mini-past-life-feat" , as opposed to them being the main carrot you have made it out to be.

    Would the system make more sense to you, if Fate points were really intended to be nothing more then novelty proxy "epic past life feats" allowing you to cling to what you have already done while you are 'working through' something else?
    No, I'm sorry, the way it's all put together, what you suggest does not make much sense. And that doesn't answer the question I posed to you, even if you wish to categorize it as the "wrong question". You're the one who labeled it as a timesink. So is it a timesink or not? And why is it set up so that I need to level up Magister destiny to be able to twist something in from LD into my FoTW build?

    If it's about allowing you to cling to something you've already passed through, then why do I then have to go into destinies of absolutely no worth. OF which I'll not be twisting anything from.

    So, the time sink is the same. And the idea that this was a afterthought just doesn't make much sense considering how much time they worked on it. They had enough time to realize that the system would mean that players would spend a lot of time outside of their preferred destinies, earning Fate Points. They obviously realized that this would likely irritate many players, because they also sold Fate Tomes, allowing you to skip having to earn at least one full destiny to earn the Fate Points, as long as you're willing to pay extra for it.

    As far as novelty proxy "epic past life feats"; the term novelty kind of denotes it as something not even that powerful or desired. Yet it is quite powerful and desired. The devs would have to really not know what they are doing to not realize this.

    And anyway, that is all "what if". Which is really pointless an endeavor. But you have to admit, as far as a timesink goes, it wouldn't have mattered whether we earn the Fate Points while in a preferred destiny or in a junk off-destiny. The only reason it would slow anything down is because people tend to not want to play as much when they find it irritating. Although, I figure it also had the opposite effect of slowing anybody down, as the people wanted to get through the off-destini9es as fast as possible, hence why you had people speed farming the easiest and fastest quests, so that they didn't even have to use any destiny period, just earn points in it. If people had been able to stay in their prime destinies, they could've earned their Fate Points while playing normally, instead of blazing through off-destinies as quickly as possible.

    So you do agree that it would have been the same relative timesink, either way, right?

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