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  1. #61
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    This

    instead of adding a new broken system just fix the system we have.
    Won't happen if Turbine can't cash in on it.

    P2W or go home.

  2. #62
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Won't happen if Turbine can't cash in on it.

    P2W or go home.
    Turbine can monetize their game without having to monetize every single little aspect of it. If the forumites keep suggesting p2w solutions however, it does play right into the plan of designing more irritation into every new system.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #63
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine can monetize their game without having to monetize every single little aspect of it. If the forumites keep suggesting p2w solutions however, it does play right into the plan of designing more irritation into every new system.
    XP pots would continue to be a reasonable sale item if they did not exacerbate CoV earnings.

  4. #64
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine can monetize their game without having to monetize every single little aspect of it. If the forumites keep suggesting p2w solutions however, it does play right into the plan of designing more irritation into every new system.
    Once again you are correct. If Turbine were to put a new item in the store similar to what the OP was suggesting the lemmings would be wetting themselves thinking that Turbine was so considerate to charge for a deterrent to the problem that Turbine intentionally made.
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  5. #65
    Community Member gordgray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Greetings

    The four main xp systems in DDO at the moment are:
    - Epic Reincarnation (requires replaying lvl 20-28 in different spheres)
    - Iconic Reincarnation (requires replaying lvl 15-28 as different "races")
    - Heroic True Reincarnation (requires replaying lvl 1-20 as different classes)
    - Epic Destinies (requires playing in different destinies)

    Whats sorely missing is a way to play at level cap (28 now, will be 30 within 2014) in a maxed ED yet progress in a meaningful way. Currrently thats simply not supported.

    I would like to suggest a way to do that which entails playing the game (even more) rather than paying to not play the game - yet allows accelleration through the use of xp pots so some payment is possible (an aspect which cannot be ignored).

    Introducing the Gem of XP Storage (BtC)
    - This is a toggle that can be activated or deactivated at any time.
    - When activated 15% of all earned xp is stored in this Gem and the other 85% lost.
    - When deactivated it has no effect.
    - It can be emptied at any time when the owner is epic level (it cannot be used during heroic levels). Doing so adds all the xp stored within modified by xp pots, vip, ship and voice and resets the Gem to 0 xp.

    Thus the stored xp can be used to fill off-destinies and to re-level from 20 and up but at the severe cost since only 15% is stored and at most 25.5% is returned (50% pot, 10% vip, 5% ship and 5% voice). Hence this suggestion does not allow gaining anything faster or by playing less. It simply substitutes playing normally at lower epic levels / in off destinies with playing significantly longer at higher epic levels / in main destiny. Its very much intended that this should be slower than simply using the current means - without that there would not be a tradeoff to consider.

    This thread is inspired by a debate here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...urrently-28%29
    Not /singed

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  6. #66
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Because fixing the actual broken system in the first place to be more fun for all is a better solution than leaving the broken system in place and then putting in a p2w solution, which makes it more fun for those willing to spend money to pay to circumvent the broken system. In short, your solution addresses the symptom (system is not fun), but not the problem itself (the actual system).
    Lets be fair here, it does not make it 'more fun' for them to spend money, it just makes them choose between which option they think sucks less.

  7. #67
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    back to the whole no Karma again?

    round and round we go just admit that you don't like Karma instead of these silly treads.

    Karma is easy enough to get in any destiny.


    The main advantage I see to this proposed system:
    you can abandon all your loot from levels lower than 28 and focus of perfecting your lvl 28 gearset, have all your power from Epic feats any play in your main destiny ignoring Karma.

    You really want to have your cake don't you?
    I don't know about anyone else, but if I make a cake, I usually do want to eat it too.

    You make it sound like a request to not have to reincarnate and still earn rewards for character development is a horrible one. Any encompassing reasons why? This system's hardly been out long enough that "that's just the way it's always been" excuse.

    In your opinion, what is the detrimental effect to not having to eTR? Especially if the "cost" is comparable in some way. For me, I'm willing to take even longer to gain the EPL, for the convenience of not having to deal with their clunky and lazily converted LR, and to not have to hold onto to different gearsets that I should have discarded when I got upgraded gear.

    If I didn't have the eTR looming over me, I would be a much more enthusiastic player. I would actually log on and play.

  8. #68
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Lets be fair here, it does not make it 'more fun' for them to spend money, it just makes them choose between which option they think sucks less.
    And that "choice" is play through irritating system, or pay to bypass the irritation and play how I want. It supports what Ive been saying and many have been attempting to deny for a while now - that the irritation is intentional in order to entice folks to pay to circumvent it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #69
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    I am not too down with a system like this. People would farm easy exp, fill the gem, then tr, and blast to the level they want.

    Even with restrictions, that is the basis of this feature you are bringing up.

    I think changing the ED system to give you levels in general to spend on any destiny would be better. Allows the basic farming purchases to continue, without adding something new to buy just to be lazier.

  10. #70
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And that "choice" is play through irritating system, or pay to bypass the irritation and play how I want. It supports what Ive been saying and many have been attempting to deny for a while now - that the irritation is intentional in order to entice folks to pay to circumvent it.
    I have to agree with you. At this point it's hard to ascribe "incompetence" to their workings. I really just thought that the devs were just not thinking about in-game consequences and really just thought that their system of leveling off-destinies made sense. I mean the system was heralded as being open-ended enough that any character could make use of any destiny he liked. Maybe they thought that people would want to experiment anyway. But you'd have to be pretty blind to think that playing a melee in an Arcane sphere would be fun and balanced.

    And the "training" concept falls far short when a melee earns enough points in Magister so that he can twist in an ability from LD. What did he supposedly "learn" from a ED that explains leveling through a destiny he will never use again to twist in an ability from a completely different ED in a completely different sphere?

  11. #71
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And that "choice" is play through irritating system, or pay to bypass the irritation and play how I want. It supports what Ive been saying and many have been attempting to deny for a while now - that the irritation is intentional in order to entice folks to pay to circumvent it.
    What you say is only partially true. The grind is there for an important reason: to try to keep people playing. That is the main intention; not the direct sales of bypassing mechanics.

  12. #72
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    What you say is only partially true. The grind is there for an important reason: to try to keep people playing. That is the main intention; not the direct sales of bypassing mechanics.
    People will not be playing and enjoying the grind if they have to play their barb in magister. You can say that people should farm lives in a certain class or get your levels in von 3, but that is not fun for everyone. A bad system is a bad system. If they only answer Turbine gives is to PAY to avoid the irritant, well we already covered that.
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  13. #73
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    People will not be playing and enjoying the grind if they have to play their barb in magister. You can say that people should farm lives in a certain class or get your levels in von 3, but that is not fun for everyone. A bad system is a bad system. If they only answer Turbine gives is to PAY to avoid the irritant, well we already covered that.
    Well yea, it's designed pretty poorly - but I just don't think it's been designed this poorly to trigger sales . In the initial design for ETR'ing actually you could actually keep the xp in your favorite destiny. After an outrage on the forums they came up with the current system. They should've sticked a lot closer to their initial idea instead of this sphere based stuff.
    Last edited by Forzah; 01-03-2014 at 03:02 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    How many threads have been started now with this exact same intro? What is the issue with playing something different from time to time? What game out there has open ended endless advancement for the same single character playing the same single way? If I understand mikkardo's many threads on the matter correctly, they would like to play one character on whatever their favorite build is, never changing the race/class/destiny mix, and never run out of opportunity for XP based advancement - is this correct? If so, how would a game be built and balanced for such an endlessly improving constantly growing evermore powerful character?
    Ah, glad you asked that. A couple of major design points to consider:
    1. increasing time of investment needed relative to rewards
    2. rewards are small, nice to haves, but don't make "those-that-have" gods relative to "those-that-don't-have"

    Simple example would be a system that once at cap any xp earned goesinto a bonus pool. Let's say this bonus pool allows for discrete rewards at cumulative totals of:
    1st bonus: 1 million xp
    2nd bonus: 3 million xp (ie 2 million additional xp after first bonus)
    3rd bonus: 6 million xp (ie 3 million additional xp after second bonus)
    4th bonus: 10 million xp (ie 4 million additional xp after third bonus)
    5th bonus: 15 million xp (ie 5 million additional xp after 4th bonus)
    etc...

    Now make the rewards small but not game-breaking. Examples:
    first bonus - one additional heroic AP to spend
    second bonus - one additional epic destiny point to spend
    third bonus - choice of 5 hp or 20 sp
    fourth bonus - choice of 500 turbine points or 2000 commendations of valor or 5 heroic commendations
    fifth bonus - 10 major mana pots or potions of supreme ability or bells of opening
    6th bonus - choice of cosmetic pet or armor from list
    etc...

    The main thing I like is that you would always have a next goal to shoot for. However, because of the increasing xp needed for each tier, the casual gamer always has an advantage in getting to their next tier over the hardcore gamer, who needs a lot more xp to reach the next bonus tier. It also makes it easier for those of us with "altitis" to justify working on alts and not just sitting on one character (ie when the xp needed for the next bonus tier is like 50 million, I'd probably prefer playing other characters more, but at least when I do play my main character the xp would never be "wasted).
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  15. #75
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    What you say is only partially true. The grind is there for an important reason: to try to keep people playing. That is the main intention; not the direct sales of bypassing mechanics.
    Try to keep people playing? No - try and keep people paying.

    You dont design a system that folks have to play in a manner they do not want to play it to keep them playing. To keep them playing, youd design it so that it was fun for anyone by allowing people to play in whatever destiny they wish.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #76
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Well yea, it's designed pretty poorly - but I just don't think it's been designed this poorly to trigger sales . In the initial design for ETR'ing actually you could actually keep the xp in your favorite destiny. After an outrage on the forums they came up with the current system. They should've sticked a lot closer to their initial idea instead of this sphere based stuff.
    This could be true and we will say that Turbine did not do this because of money, but check out this post from Chai in another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Let people play the game how they want to play it is the best way to retain customers. All the past examples youre bringing up highlight how far people are willing to go and the crazy build concepts they are willing to design to avoid being forced to play how they dont want to.
    If people are outraged by this design, why has it not been addressed and if it is in the works do you think it would be free? Or do you think that they would sell something that would fix it so people actually enjoyed playing endgame?
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  17. #77

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    Introducing the Gem of XP Storage (BtC) Version II
    - This is a trinket that can be worn at any time, min level 20.
    - When activated 10% of all earned xp is stored in this Gem and the other 90% lost.
    - It can be emptied at any time when the owner is epic level (it cannot be used during heroic levels). Doing so adds all the xp stored within NOT modified by xp pots, vip, ship and voice and resets the Gem to 0 xp.
    - This Gem consists of ten parts that must be pulled from ten different raids. The parts are then assembled together, combined with 10k heroic commendations. This item is not available in the DDO store.

    An interesting concept. Bolded suggested changes.
    Still not sure about this, but its is definitely an interesting idea.

    Thumbs up to The Troll for thinking it up.

  18. #78
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And that "choice" is play through irritating system, or pay to bypass the irritation and play how I want. It supports what Ive been saying and many have been attempting to deny for a while now - that the irritation is intentional in order to entice folks to pay to circumvent it.

    The nature of all MMO's on the market is to kill time, to provide players something to occupy themselves with. From leveling to crafting, to killing dragons or just exploring regions, and traveling, these factors are done to occupy a players time, with no more motive behind them then a game of Tetris has.

    I think you're really reaching for it, because, if that was true, then the bypass would exist before the grind was put in, and DDO has had the same time sinks put in, long before they sold the means to bypass them, some so old, they date back to the Sub based times.

  19. #79
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The nature of all MMO's on the market is to kill time, to provide players something to occupy themselves with. From leveling to crafting, to killing dragons or just exploring regions, and traveling, these factors are done to occupy a players time, with no more motive behind them then a game of Tetris has.

    I think you're really reaching for it, because, if that was true, then the bypass would exist before the grind was put in, and DDO has had the same time sinks put in, long before they sold the means to bypass them, some so old, they date back to the Sub based times.
    In the case of EDs and eTRs though, how is it a timesink to level off-destinies and off-spheres when they take the same amount of xp as leveling a good destiny or sphere?

    With EDs they implemented a way to circumvent some of that timesink with store items from the get-go. And the bypass doesn't have to exist before the grind to be suspicious (because then it's just a little too obvious). Just shortly after.

    And not every timesink has a paid option to bypass, but more and more do.

    I'm not even saying that's totally a bad thing. But in the case of EDs and eTRs I think Turbine is being incredibly shortsighted. If they really did things this way to later try to sell bypasses, I think they'll lose far more revenue in the long run than what they'll gain in the short run. Just my opinion of course.

    And if they really weren't thinking of ways to monetize this system, if this is really the best they could dream up, then that is maybe even sadder. A system that "isn't that bad" or "could've been worse" is hardly something anyone should feel proud of designing.

  20. #80
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The nature of all MMO's on the market is to kill time, to provide players something to occupy themselves with. From leveling to crafting, to killing dragons or just exploring regions, and traveling, these factors are done to occupy a players time, with no more motive behind them then a game of Tetris has.

    I think you're really reaching for it, because, if that was true, then the bypass would exist before the grind was put in, and DDO has had the same time sinks put in, long before they sold the means to bypass them, some so old, they date back to the Sub based times.
    Nope, the nature of MMOs is providing entertainment.

    Im not reaching at all, and am correct on why current systems are designed the way they are. The focus changed, from content being the focus of player retention when players paid by subscribing (when they didnt sell timer bypass) to focusing on designing systems that can be monetized. In order to monetize it however, they need to design it to irritate people enough that they want to pay to bypass.

    When the focus was on content ~2006-2010 or so, they acted alot more on our feedback and made decisions based on what players wanted, and not what players would pay for on an ala carte basis. When people provided feedback about the raid grind to get items being too long, they made it so 20 runs got you a list of items that dropped in the raid. When people complained about the old 2 item drop in raids when leaders were the only ones allowed to loot the chest (discouraged grouping) they made it so everyone got a chest pull and everyone got a chance to get an item.

    Nowdays the "fix" comes in the form of selling you a way to bypass, and yes, they did start selling ways to bypass old time syncs which were put in for player retention purposes in order to keep people paying subscriptions. THose time syncs did serve that purpose until p2w became the primary focus of monetization.

    YOu want to bring up raid timer bypass as an example? LOL - In that same era, closer to 2010, when asked why they would not make the timers 1 day for old raids we were told it would unbalance the game, allowing people to gear up too quickly. Nowdays they SELL us the solution for that. Game balance is no longer the focus for design. Making profit through a la carte sales of methods to circumvent game balance, is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I think you're really reaching for it, because, if that was true, then the bypass would exist before the grind was put in, and DDO has had the same time sinks put in, long before they sold the means to bypass them, some so old, they date back to the Sub based times.
    You mean they werent selling ETR hearts the same day the ETR system went live? Oh wait, yes, they were.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-03-2014 at 04:43 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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