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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default It's a vicious cycle

    Some classes in this game (mainly sorcs and wizards) have always been popular because they are powerful, while some classes, like paladins and bards for example, are neither popular nor particularly powerful in terms of damage output. This has been a very common opinion before and after the enhancement pass.

    I can't help but wonder if these preconceptions by players have somehow influenced the developers during the making of the enhancement trees, thus perpetuating a vicious cycle of mediocrity.

    In other words... has the previous popularity of a class before the enhancement pass somehow influenced the quality of it's class enhancements after the implementation of the tree system? What do you all think?


    Edit: Clerics are an exception. IIRC, when they first came out in the enhancement alpha, the sheer godawfulness of their enhancements made a lot of players upset, and they got two new trees very quickly (relatively speaking).
    Last edited by HatsuharuZ; 12-28-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Emizand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    In other words... has the previous popularity of a class before the enhancement pass somehow influenced the quality of it's class enhancements after the implementation of the tree system? What do you all think?

    In a nutshell, NO!

    Go back to D&D 1st Ed and as a Magic User at first level you were running around with you 1 shot of magic missile a day, in short fairly useless. Then you got to level 5 and got fireball and the balance shifted and continued to go your way the more you progressed.

    All class are treated equally by the dice, but all classes are not equal! How its, how it has always been and how it should be.

  3. #3
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emizand View Post
    In a nutshell, NO!

    Go back to D&D 1st Ed and as a Magic User at first level you were running around with you 1 shot of magic missile a day, in short fairly useless. Then you got to level 5 and got fireball and the balance shifted and continued to go your way the more you progressed.

    All class are treated equally by the dice, but all classes are not equal! How its, how it has always been and how it should be.
    I was talking about enhancements, but okay.

  4. #4
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    What?!? No... Sorc's and Wizards are popular and got nearly doubled in power in the enhancement pass... what you're asking doesn't jibe with observation at all.

    Unless you're contending that they buffed the popular classes and left the unpopular classes with weak and poorly thought out Enhancements? But besides also not jibing with observational reality, that's also lacking any sort of plausible causal motive.

    Regardless it is clearly not the case that they buffed or nerfed based on popularity (or at least not as a main determining factor).

    Sorcs got more powerful, were already very popular, they recieved 4 tiers of an entire 2nd savant element compared to before.
    Paladins are very popular but got nerfed in many ways and received arguably the lamest trees compared to other classes that got a wealth of great new enhancements.
    Wizards also popular; nearly doubled in power/utility/options.... A Pale Master is now also an Archmage and vice versa... all Archmages got Lich or Wraith form and self healing.

    Bards are the least popular class in the game and got the worst trees arguably worse than Pali's trees.

    As you can see there is no rhyme or reason here. Paladins are very popular as a class and got nerfed, Bards very unpopular and got nerfed. I suspect the person who created the Bard and Pali trees (or perhaps "mashed up" is the better term because of how uninspired and lame and yet mashed together they are) simply was behind the curve and "mailing it in" certainly they did not pay attention to the serious power increases other classes got.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  5. #5
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    I used to have a vicious uni-cycle. This thing was mean. Prolly was like a CR:32


    This is a true story. You know you can believe it because I'm some guy on the internet.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Unless you're contending that they buffed the popular classes and left the unpopular classes with weak and poorly thought out Enhancements? But besides also not jibing with observational reality, that's also lacking any sort of plausible causal motive.
    That is what the OP is wondering, yes. The "plausible causal motive" would be pretty obvious: Hey these classes are very popular, so be sure to give them good trees. For the unpopular classes just toss in whatever trees and they're fine, nobody will care.

    I don't know that I agree with that hypothesis, but that's what the OP is wondering.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That is what the OP is wondering, yes. The "plausible causal motive" would be pretty obvious: Hey these classes are very popular, so be sure to give them good trees. For the unpopular classes just toss in whatever trees and they're fine, nobody will care.

    I don't know that I agree with that hypothesis, but that's what the OP is wondering.
    If you say so IMO that "pretty obvious" motive sounds like something a 12 year old would find plausible right before they said it out loud. Plausible does not mean "tin foil hat required". The premise doesn't jibe with observation, Paladins are popular in the game, probably because they are the path of least resistence to self healing durable melee. But they got as much love in the pass as Bard's did... Which is to say proxy nerfed relative to the embarrassment of riches that other classes got in their trees. So basically no matter how you slice it; no.

    A plausible reason for those trees to have been so meh, is that the person who made them is mailing it in, punching a clock.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-28-2013 at 04:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  8. #8
    Community Member bhaelrot's Avatar
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    The truth is what you believe.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    This game is dominated by the min max specialist mentality. The reason why bards and paladins aren't popular is because they are hybrid generalist classes that can do a lot of things, but don't do any one thing better than the specialist of that ability does it. Metagaming plays a large factor because it allows people to cover up the glaring weaknesses created by min maxing and over specializing. Being monte haul as DDO is, also plays a factor, because many benefits that can only otherwise be had from spell buffs can be bought in endless piles of consumables.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This game is dominated by the min max specialist mentality.
    Forums might be. Don't see Ghallanda being dominated by it.

    Are you arguing against high UMD builds that can self-buff and self-heal from scrolls and wands?

    Does that make them specialist UMD builds or generalised self-buffers who haven't min/maxed their DPS?

  11. #11
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    I don't think it has anything to do with popularity at all, other than just basic coincidence.

    It's pretty clear that for pallys the devs are trying to design a tank in a game where a tank is only marginally useful a very small percentage of the time. However, if a pally did get massive dps, it would be better than fighter or barb simply because it has the defenses. Aha! So you say, make it a choice to have defense or offense, and then you really just a have a fighter with a few divine tricks.

    In PnP DnD the pally was a class meant for role playing. It does not transfer well to a video game. There's simply just not enough room between the warpriest and the fighter for a class that compromises in both.

    For the bard, it's a similar problem. If you make them powerful spellcasters, even if it's only enchantment and illusion, the archmages will have no reason to be enchanters or illusionists... oh wait, there's already no point.

    If you make them powerful fighters, you have self buffing self healing fighters. Why would anyone play a fighter? Same with healing.

    And the really distinctive powers of bards really translate well into a role playing environment. Into a video game that is primarily hack and slay... not so much. And then we have this really weird mechanic that the devs insist on that no red names ever will ever be affected by anything a bard can do, even in epic levels. (other than swinging a sword, which ranges between "meh" and embarrassing in DDO) This relegates bards to a support class which is needed about twice as much as a pally's tank ability. That is to say, not very often.

    And neither one can solo because neither can manage enough dps to take down a great deal of red names, especially if the red names self heal.

    At least a pally can splash monk and come up with some sort of abortion that is useful. A bard can't splash monk (or pally) and that limits creative bard builds in today's DDO.

  12. #12
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That is what the OP is wondering, yes. The "plausible causal motive" would be pretty obvious: Hey these classes are very popular, so be sure to give them good trees. For the unpopular classes just toss in whatever trees and they're fine, nobody will care.

    I don't know that I agree with that hypothesis, but that's what the OP is wondering.
    Exactly. It's a hypothesis, so I'm probably wrong, but I can't help but wonder...

    Which is why I posed it as a question, rather than going full tinfoil hat and making accusations.

    Also, it's possible that the devs got more feedback for the "popular" classes, like wizards and sorcerers, and were thus able to make better enhancements for them by taking into account player suggestions and complaints.
    Last edited by HatsuharuZ; 12-28-2013 at 10:45 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emizand View Post
    In a nutshell, NO!

    Go back to D&D 1st Ed and as a Magic User at first level you were running around with you 1 shot of magic missile a day, in short fairly useless. Then you got to level 5 and got fireball and the balance shifted and continued to go your way the more you progressed.

    All class are treated equally by the dice, but all classes are not equal! How its, how it has always been and how it should be.
    If you picked Sleep as your spell, then you got to essentially murder an entire room full of enemies with no danger to the party. Just remember to pick spells that are actually USEFUL and you could even find yourself enjoying level 1 as a Magic User in original D&D or AD&D.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  14. #14
    Founder Garumn's Avatar
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    Default HAHAHAHA!!! Winner!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    I used to have a vicious uni-cycle. This thing was mean. Prolly was like a CR:32


    This is a true story. You know you can believe it because I'm some guy on the internet.
    This HAS TO BE, MUST BE, Post of the Year!!!
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  15. #15
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    My experience is that paladins got buffed, since before the pass i had trouble getting them to do what i wanted, and after i made one that did quite easily.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  16. #16
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    I used to have a vicious uni-cycle. This thing was mean. Prolly was like a CR:32


    This is a true story. You know you can believe it because I'm some guy on the internet.
    The internet never lies! :P

  17. #17
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Wot about monks?

  18. #18
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If you picked Sleep as your spell, then you got to essentially murder an entire room full of enemies with no danger to the party. Just remember to pick spells that are actually USEFUL and you could even find yourself enjoying level 1 as a Magic User in original D&D or AD&D.
    Just as long as it wasn't a room full of elves?

  19. #19
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Wot about monks?
    Hjeal meh!

    What the heck is this thread about?

  20. #20
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Wot about monks?
    Monks have always been awesome. Nearly infinite resource (ki), evasion, improved evasion, the best saves, reliable single target crowd-control (stunning fist).... what about them?

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