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  1. #1
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Default Why generic epic levels instead of more class levels?

    Epic levels seem meh. I keep hitting lots of levels where I get nothing new. Makes gaining a level less interesting.

    So, what is the advantage of generic epic levels over allowing us to take 8 (eventually 10) more levels of the existing classes?

    The epic level system does not add caster levels (the biggest victim seems to be turn spec'd clerics on this one, but what caster would not benefit from increased caster levels?)

    Would taking more class levels instead of generic epic levels break the game?

    I like the idea of have 30 cleric levels or 30 wizard levels etc, but I realize there may be a downside. Without drama, what would that be?

    This would also push more people to use capstones. You would also have to pick classes that give you the number of skill points you need and would get HP based on the class you pick. Would this add more variety or less? Would this allow more builds to be viable in EE or be too much of an "easy button"?

    Please remember, the devs are unlikely to change anything, so please keep it civil, its just a discussion and I'm not asking to nerf anything...

    P.S.

    To get some of it out of the way:

    Hjeal Meh!
    /ghostbane
    /crucibled
    "..and not sound like an elitest jerk"
    My build works fine, no reason to change anything.
    Take my class on how to play DDO.
    Stick to EH noob!
    I love this game, don't even talk about changes!

    /sigh

  2. #2
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    Time and money. Giving each class their own levels would create too many problems with balance, require a restructuring of enhancements, feats, all sorts of things like that.

  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Turbine wanted to monetize level 20+ without actually charging you to level up. This was what marketing came up with and they went with it. Destinies$$$ + commoner levels which could have been left out completely without really losing anything at all. We would be playing with a level 20 cap + destinies and nothing would change.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  4. #4
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Epic levels seem meh. I keep hitting lots of levels where I get nothing new. Makes gaining a level less interesting.

    So, what is the advantage of generic epic levels over allowing us to take 8 (eventually 10) more levels of the existing classes?

    The epic level system does not add caster levels (the biggest victim seems to be turn spec'd clerics on this one, but what caster would not benefit from increased caster levels?)

    Would taking more class levels instead of generic epic levels break the game?

    I like the idea of have 30 cleric levels or 30 wizard levels etc, but I realize there may be a downside. Without drama, what would that be?

    This would also push more people to use capstones. You would also have to pick classes that give you the number of skill points you need and would get HP based on the class you pick. Would this add more variety or less? Would this allow more builds to be viable in EE or be too much of an "easy button"?

    Please remember, the devs are unlikely to change anything, so please keep it civil, its just a discussion and I'm not asking to nerf anything...

    P.S.

    To get some of it out of the way:

    Hjeal Meh!
    /ghostbane
    /crucibled
    "..and not sound like an elitest jerk"
    My build works fine, no reason to change anything.
    Take my class on how to play DDO.
    Stick to EH noob!
    I love this game, don't even talk about changes!

    Basically, it's because the game follows 3.5 from levels 1-20, and level 20+ follows 4th edition rules, where you have commoner levels and epic destinies.

    Also, fanboi!!!
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

    Leader of The Dark Creed

  5. #5
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    You can get caster levels from EDs

  6. #6
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    You can get caster levels from EDs
    Maximum of 5, and from reading it doesn't work for increasing cleric/paladin levels with respect to turning.

    So yes, there are caster level increases in destinies, but they don't keep up with the levels we get. Maybe push up to 8 and then 10 destiny levels?
    /sigh

  7. #7
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    They give bab on odd levels, they should give CLs too.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Basically, it's because the game follows 3.5 from levels 1-20, and level 20+ follows 4th edition rules, where you have commoner levels and epic destinies.

    Also, fanboi!!!
    Wrong. 4e has normal levels from 21-30. As well as epic destinies.

    Geoff.

  9. #9
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffWatson View Post
    Wrong. 4e has normal levels from 21-30. As well as epic destinies.

    Geoff.
    Does it? I admit to having not played 4e, but I did do a lot of reading on it. I swear it said that. In that case....beats me!
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

    Leader of The Dark Creed

  10. #10
    Community Member toaftoaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Epic levels seem meh. I keep hitting lots of levels where I get nothing new. Makes gaining a level less interesting.

    So, what is the advantage of generic epic levels over allowing us to take 8 (eventually 10) more levels of the existing classes?

    The epic level system does not add caster levels (the biggest victim seems to be turn spec'd clerics on this one, but what caster would not benefit from increased caster levels?)

    Would taking more class levels instead of generic epic levels break the game?

    I like the idea of have 30 cleric levels or 30 wizard levels etc, but I realize there may be a downside. Without drama, what would that be?

    This would also push more people to use capstones. You would also have to pick classes that give you the number of skill points you need and would get HP based on the class you pick. Would this add more variety or less? Would this allow more builds to be viable in EE or be too much of an "easy button"?

    Please remember, the devs are unlikely to change anything, so please keep it civil, its just a discussion and I'm not asking to nerf anything...

    P.S.

    To get some of it out of the way:

    Hjeal Meh!
    /ghostbane
    /crucibled
    "..and not sound like an elitest jerk"
    My build works fine, no reason to change anything.
    Take my class on how to play DDO.
    Stick to EH noob!
    I love this game, don't even talk about changes!

    you forgot "THE"

  11. #11
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toaftoaf View Post
    you forgot "THE"
    True, but that is an official, Turbine Sponsored, genuine, in-game "tip". So, while valid, its not a normal complaining response to a post and thus I decided not to include it. 8)
    /sigh

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    You can get caster levels from EDs
    You can only get 5 levels from EDs, but only if you are in the proper sphere. So if you are a FvS or Cleric, you don't gain them in non-Divine Spheres; if you are a Wizard, Sorc, Bard or Arti, you don't gain levels in non-Arcane Spheres. If you are a Ranger or Druid, you don't gain levels in non-Primal Spheres or Fury of the Wild. It's very, very limiting.

    Did I mention that it's only 5 levels gained from EDs? And a year from now there will be 30 levels, so there's a complete lack of gained caster levels or DCs, except for maybe gear (that may or may not be horrible) in the future.

    As someone pointed out, Turning for Paladins and Clerics stop completely at 20. There will be 10 levels of stagnation a year from now. As I said, forcing players to depend on gear (that lately has been horribly designed) for 10 levels is a bad game design.

    And it's not just a problem for Casters, but all classes. Pretty much every class has a DC tied to Class level somehow. Those are all stagnant at level 20. As players get into Epic levels, those DCs should be increased by one each. For example, Assassinate has a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier) when it should be (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier + Epic Level).

    Speaking of Assassinate, Combat Mastery should be increasing it since the Devs have allowed Combat Mastery to work with a host of Monk abilities. Heck, Combat Mastery should be working with a bunch of the non-Monk melee abilities, such as Sweeping Strike, Holy Retribution, Cracking Attack, etc.
    Last edited by oradafu; 12-27-2013 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    I'd be all for epic class levels if they gave caster levels as well.

  14. #14
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    Wow, I sadly have to agree with epic levels not being...erm...epic! First off, don't bother factoring in leveling without epic destinies, you HAVE to possess them or your not going far. Second, the idea of epic levels themselves kinda suck; no more enhancements, no increased DC's or caster levels, and the sudden cut-off of regular levels really screws up the pacing of the game. In my opinion, there never was such a huge demand to epic levels that they had to rush it out; they could have waited. I honestly wasn't sure if they were going to actually increase the level cap or not, but they did, and in a bad way. Epic levels feel more like your walking through a house that's being constructed rather than actual levels. It's so funky and half-arsed.

    I hope they have a roadmap or diagram of where they want to go with epic levels when its all finished or else they are really going to put themselves in a nasty corner with no good way out.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Wow, I sadly have to agree with epic levels not being...erm...epic! First off, don't bother factoring in leveling without epic destinies, you HAVE to possess them or your not going far. Second, the idea of epic levels themselves kinda suck; no more enhancements, no increased DC's or caster levels, and the sudden cut-off of regular levels really screws up the pacing of the game. In my opinion, there never was such a huge demand to epic levels that they had to rush it out; they could have waited. I honestly wasn't sure if they were going to actually increase the level cap or not, but they did, and in a bad way. Epic levels feel more like your walking through a house that's being constructed rather than actual levels. It's so funky and half-arsed.

    I hope they have a roadmap or diagram of where they want to go with epic levels when its all finished or else they are really going to put themselves in a nasty corner with no good way out.
    1 lazy
    2 true epic level would make pure as op as multi is now
    3 we are in a corner

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    In my opinion, there never was such a huge demand to epic levels that they had to rush it out; they could have waited. I honestly wasn't sure if they were going to actually increase the level cap or not, but they did, and in a bad way.
    If I remember correctly, when the Devs asked about increasing the levels past level 20, the split was pretty even. Not only did the level cap to 25 kill raids and drive off alot of players, but many of the players that demanded the raise in level cap left shortly afterward.

    I still don't understand why the cap was raised if introducing EDs were part of the plan. Keeping the cap at level 20 and adding EDs for capped players to farm would have been enough. Even with the additional changes to Epic quests that were added to the game, like difficulty levels.

  17. #17
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Turbine wanted to monetize level 20+ without actually charging you to level up. This was what marketing came up with and they went with it. Destinies$$$ + commoner levels which could have been left out completely without really losing anything at all. We would be playing with a level 20 cap + destinies and nothing would change.
    All of ^this^ plus: If you think 6 Ranger/8 Fighter/6 Monk is powerful, how about 6 Ranger/8 Fighter/14(soon 16) Monk? Or 20 Wiz/6 Ranger/2 Monk? Or...

    Yes, allowing class levels for 21+ would be OP.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  18. #18
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Epic levels seem meh. I keep hitting lots of levels where I get nothing new. Makes gaining a level less interesting.

    So, what is the advantage of generic epic levels over allowing us to take 8 (eventually 10) more levels of the existing classes?

    The epic level system does not add caster levels (the biggest victim seems to be turn spec'd clerics on this one, but what caster would not benefit from increased caster levels?)

    Would taking more class levels instead of generic epic levels break the game?

    I like the idea of have 30 cleric levels or 30 wizard levels etc, but I realize there may be a downside. Without drama, what would that be?

    This would also push more people to use capstones. You would also have to pick classes that give you the number of skill points you need and would get HP based on the class you pick. Would this add more variety or less? Would this allow more builds to be viable in EE or be too much of an "easy button"?

    Please remember, the devs are unlikely to change anything, so please keep it civil, its just a discussion and I'm not asking to nerf anything...

    P.S.

    To get some of it out of the way:

    Hjeal Meh!
    /ghostbane
    /crucibled
    "..and not sound like an elitest jerk"
    My build works fine, no reason to change anything.
    Take my class on how to play DDO.
    Stick to EH noob!
    I love this game, don't even talk about changes!

    pretty much because they're phasing out heroic. They putting full eyes on epics and end game now. I think it was stated some time back in the summer.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  19. #19
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    All of ^this^ plus: If you think 6 Ranger/8 Fighter/6 Monk is powerful, how about 6 Ranger/8 Fighter/14(soon 16) Monk? Or 20 Wiz/6 Ranger/2 Monk? Or...

    Yes, allowing class levels for 21+ would be OP.
    There are already a lot of things that are OP by a great many posters opinions. How would allowing more builds to reach that power break the game (more than it already is, of course)?

    There has been a lot of talk about monk and shiradi builds being over powered compared to everything else. Would allowing more caster levels etc allow for more build to be functional at EE? Because turning capping at 20 takes what was a fun niche build that was really good in a few quests to a dusty guy that doesn't work in anything past level 23 or so.

    DC builds have been having a tough time for a while and might be recovering, but still require massive past life investment. Having 28 levels of wizard instead of 20 or even 25 if you are in proper destiny would be a help, but not likely game breaking.

    Is it monk that would break even more if more class levels were made available?
    /sigh

  20. #20
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I don't see Turbine suddenly scrapping all their hard work on EDs and change it so we can have 30 levels of 1 class. the game is supposed to be 3.5 not 4E, but we all know how Turbine don't mind crucibling things in the game when its in their best interest. maybe in another DDO game, but not this one.

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