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  1. #1
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Default How can you say "nerf someone else" in a good way?

    Anyone got any ideas? ..................its for the general good of the game? *shrug*

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Why be nice about it?

    Just nerf monks.

  3. #3
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Why be nice about it?

    Just nerf monks.
    nah just make every other class be at the level paladins are at now and call it a day..................................it would be a ghost town.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    nah just make every other class be at the level paladins are at now and call it a day..................................it would be a ghost town.
    The Ghostbane would prevent that.

  5. #5
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    By asking for nerfs only on the account of the person requesting them and not for everyone else. The person requesting the nerfs gets their wish, those who are not interested in nerfs get their wish. Its a win win situation.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Same way nerfs always really get on their radar: Take an extreme case, including totally tricking it out, then brag about it / be obnoxious with it's use.

    Oh, were you assuming nerfs weren't typically the result of self-inflicted wounds?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Same way nerfs always really get on their radar: Take an extreme case, including totally tricking it out, then brag about it / be obnoxious with it's use.

    Oh, were you assuming nerfs weren't typically the result of self-inflicted wounds?
    I don't recall the boast-ful (hyphenated due to Turbines ******** cuss filter) S&B Paladin that got them nerfed in the Enhancement pass

    Or for that matter the Shield blocking Pali that got them to nerf intim 2 years ago.

    Frankly most nerfs are a result of people looking at what others have on their dinner plate and being jealous. With or without exaggerating how good that other guys plate really is in their own mind. A combination of "the grass is always greener" and the worst sort of "if I'm not having fun no one else should have fun" human nature.

    Just look at the nerf to Shield of Condemnation back when it came out... before it was nerfed it was MARGINALLY useful mostly against Bosses and mobs with multiple fast attacks... After it was nerfed it's a non factor that occasionally boosts your damage by 1 or 2 stacks and almost never stacks up except against bosses where you're getting hit constantly (i.e. your FvS has aggro). To be thanked for getting this ability nerfed to uselessness are all the unknowledgeable noise making nerf herders who looked at the ability "on paper" with zero experience and tisk tisked and cluck clucked like disapproving old ladies until Turbine nerfed it to uselessness.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-27-2013 at 08:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  8. #8
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    I personally nerfed all of the FotM builds on my account. I just refuse to play them. Problem solved.
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  9. #9
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I don't recall the boast-ful (hyphenated due to Turbines ******** cuss filter) S&B Paladin that got them nerfed in the Enhancement pass

    Or for that matter the Shield blocking Pali that got them to nerf intim 2 years ago.

    Frankly most nerfs are a result of people looking at what others have on their dinner plate and being jealous. With or without exaggerating how good that other guys plate really is in their own mind. A combination of "the grass is always greener" and the worst sort of "if I'm not having fun no one else should have fun" human nature.

    Just look at the nerf to Shield of Condemnation back when it came out... before it was nerfed it was MARGINALLY useful mostly against Bosses and mobs with multiple fast attacks... After it was nerfed it's a non factor that occasionally boosts your damage by 1 or 2 stacks and almost never stacks up except against bosses where you're getting hit constantly (i.e. your FvS has aggro). To be thanked for getting this ability nerfed to uselessness are all the unknowledgeable noise making nerf herders who looked at the ability "on paper" with zero experience and tisk tisked and cluck clucked like disapproving old ladies until Turbine nerfed it to uselessness.
    I liked itwhen cove shield dazed bosses, ice savants froze bosses.... good times. But we can't be super powerful. We can#t have immunities. Only mobs cheat.... ridiculous.
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  10. #10
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    You could say "If my pure sucks everyone should!!!!!" That's kind of average and nice.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  11. #11
    Community Member Dendrix's Avatar
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    you can't

    or swap an a for a u and lose the ' while looking in the mirror

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Frankly most nerfs are a result of people looking at what others have on their dinner plate and being jealous.
    Classic failure to understand that developers have their own thoughts, balance choices and long-term objectives.

    A "build" in this game is incredibly easy to mimic. It requires no skill to "master" and can 90% of any classes 'power' can be achieved by any player with a marginal understanding of the game. The only time when builds become "difficult" is when you try and 'break' conventions and beat the normal power curve. To be the innovator is tough, to have a good build is as easy as filling in a paint by numbers.

    Here's the thing; if you have an education/experience in game design you know that nerfs and buffs aren't synonymous with "bad" and "good." A nerf applied correctly is great. A buff applied correct is also great. Game health improves dramatically when developers choose to focus energy on improving the game instead of stroking the egos of a few 'best' players.

    In this game, it's painfully obvious that a monk splash is the single most powerful choice for anyone who can take it. A paladin splash rounds out any build. A kensai/monk generally sacrifices nothing of value to accomplish disproportionate gains. These are facts, plain and simple.

    Some will claim that "buffs are the way to solve the problem" others will claim "nerfs are the answer" but really, it's a balancing act of both. Players don't really want Superman characters because then the 'end game' doesn't exist. Developers don't really want to rebalance every level 30 dungeon. Most of the time, this means that the best game you can gt (challenging, fun and focused on meaingful choices) results from nerfs.

    They save time, have no real impact on 99% of players and 'create' an end game by virtual of improving the power curve.

    Anyone who tells you otherwise is a loon who has never worked with game design.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Classic failure to understand that developers have their own thoughts, balance choices and long-term objectives.
    And this is a classic strawman, no one's failing to understand anything. This thread is about players calling for nerfs, no one is discussing the pragmatic design goals of the developers in here.

    As I've said in many nerf threads, "balance" in a PvE game is a chimaera, an intellectual conceit. Those who are screaming for more of it are doing so for reasons that are not very flattering, generally "covetousness" and envy of someone elses fun/enjoyment. The objective of a game like this is to let gamers escape reality into a familiar and well loved escapist fantasy setting/rules system. To have fun in games like this requires "heroic" characters that feel powerful and with some player skill feel powerful more often than they feel weak and ineffectual. A successful game design in this sort of game, keeps players feeling connected to their characters and enjoying playing them. Nerf's do the opposite of this... they literally destroy the connection between the player and their characters, often irrevocably* they often make characters less fun to play and less capable, less heroic feeling, and less powerful. Those qualities are the antithesis of the design goals of an RPG.

    * True story bro: My Paladin "Ironstug" a S&B Paladin got nerfed immediately after I had capped and aquired Leviks set from many hound runs, this character was ruined so much by the intimidate skill nerf that I literally left the game and stopped posting here for a year, that character is still sitting there unplayed two years later. BTW I left like players REALLY leave the game, not with a "fairwell cruel DDO" letter to the forum, I just got disgusted and left, the person who writes that good bye post doesn't usually actually WANT to leave.

    Balance is actually not a desirable goal for a game of this sort. as evidenced by the massive success of the woefully unbbalanced PnP game. Each type of class/character build having something fun/exciting/enjoyable they can do and are extremely capable of doing should be the main focus and goal.

    D&D spent 40+ years being EXTREMELY UNBALANCED and is one of the most loved and enduring gaming systems in the history of games. Balance is Vanilla, bland, literally balance means "everything is the same" the closer a game gets to perfect balance the closer you as a gamer get to making choices that MEAN NOTHING and have NO IMPACT on the game. Taken to the logical extreme, If all choices are perfectly balanced then there are no better choices and no worse choices...

    Games at a fundamental "game theory" level are strictly about making choices. When there are no wrong choices there ceases to be a game. Hense the closer a game gets to balanced with no bad choices, the less compelling it becomes. Unless of course you're taking one kind of choice out and replacing it with another (tests of skill versus tests of knowledge for example, a FPS arena shooter with no classes is all about your twitch choices and not about your character build choices for example).

    "Play" Pachinko some time... no real game to it is there? You're just watching a ball bounce down randomly and come to stop... Now put some pinball flippers at the bottom and a hole for them to guard that ends the game if the ball gets in there... All of a sudden it's an actual game, and is instantly 100 times more fun and interesting. Now... remove the hole the flippers are guarding... Back to being not a game again... Why? Because in only one scenario is it possible to fail, in only one scenario are you testing your choices against a consequence. In DDO the less consequential your build choices become the less engagement in your character and the less powerful/heroic your escapist experience is. RPG choices tend to be less about twitch skill and more about mental puzzles of gear and synergies. Take synergies out and the game gets shallower.

    Now all that said: make Bards better at something, give Barbarians Evasion just like Monks and Rogues (more splash choices and Barbs get more survivable and less mana sponge)... Let Paladins sacrifice some self healing or survival for serious holy fanatic DPS. Buff the currently underwhelming classes and combinations... this adds new synergies new ways of doing things and new ideas no one has done yet... Not because of balance, but because of depth and complexity, and richness.

    Buff don't nerf.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  14. #14
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    The pale-master will rise again!
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Anyone got any ideas? ..................its for the general good of the game? *shrug*
    <clears throat>

    "Ahem! Devs, NaturalHazard is really quite a good chap, all in all, when you look past his many flaws. But, he really needs a good whack with the nerf bat now and then. Could you please look after that before you drop by this afternoon for a spot of tea? Righto and thanks again!"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Buff don't nerf.
    You've misunderstood, or perhaps simply misrepresented what "balance" means in a PvE game. Balance has little to nothing to do with maintaining player power across multiple player avatars. It has everything to do with player avatars power in relation to game content.

    If you want to talk about something meaningful you need to look at game health. A buff-only mentality has 3 results.
    1) You cut the length of the game down substantially
    2) You draw every character iteration towards the same few goals
    3) You exponentially increase development time.

    Here's why.
    1) The length of the game is directly related to the difficulty one has getting through the content. If content is simple and easy because everyone's using a Superman then the length of time it takes to go from start to finish drops. Challenge is lost, content becomes vanilla.

    2) The most difficult content can only be defeated by having certain pre-req's. If you want all characters to be able to have a reasonable shot at this content buffs need to follow a certain pattern that delivers on those pre-req's - otherwise the "buffs" are little more than cosmetic. So in DDO terms, that means evasion on barbs/bards, removing alignment restrictions and/or making every class have self-healing options (whoops, already happened :P). You draw every "high-end" toon towards the same few goals because the hardest content requires it.

    3) Money made in DDO is directly related to keeping you in the game as long as possible. FTP economic practices NEED you to be inconvenienced during regular play so that you'll purchase convenience. That's the business model. The only way to keep players in the game longer in a buff-only mentality is to constantly change EVERYTHING. All player classes need to be developed, while at the same time content must be constantly "buffed" (effectively nerfing the buffs toons get at the same time) so that the average time spent in the game doesn't drop dramatically.

    Turbine needs you in the game to make money. If you make everyone a Superman or make it easily achievable, the only way to continue to make the same number of dollars is to also 'buff' the content. <- That takes FOREVER. Every dungeon, every raid, every thing must eventually be 'buffed' to avoid power creep, which reduces inconvenience/challenge/time spent in game, and finally revenue.

    **
    The story you share is an example of nerfing poorly. Nobody is advocating ruining an enter class/archetype. That's stupid and rightfully gets your customers mad. No nerf should ever totally invalidate an enter type of character (AC tanks, Paladins etc etc). That's an example of an error, not of "what nerfing does." ie: You create game health by using a scalpel, not a hammer.

    **
    The plinko example is actually a much better representation of what YOU'RE advocating for (1 way development) than what I'm advocating for (multi-method development). The buff until everyone can do it, just makes everything the same - which is exactly what plinko does.
    Last edited by Xianio; 12-28-2013 at 08:17 PM.

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