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  1. #1
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Default How do you say "no zergers" in a good way?

    So, OK, I'm with a group of friends flagging one of my toons for CiTW. The PL throws up an LFM, and someone joins. This is a demonweb quest, which means it's basically chaos getting everyone to the quest (especially if they are new). And yes...I know about the trick of jumping off the edge of the platform.

    So. while we are getting one guy to the quest entrance, the guy who we picked up announces that he's started the quest.

    Ummm...OK?

    So now we rush to get everyone there. We all get in, the person who started the quest a) bypassed most of the quest, and b) was at the end fight. He finishes the endfight, then announces that he has a XP pot going, and left the group because we were "too slow."

    We intended to do optional, however, the guy who joined was the trapper. At least one of the optionals had traps. So that XP was lost.

    Now here's the deal: it was OBVIOUS that they guy could solo the quest, and he was farming XP. I got no problem with that. However, we did NOT specify that this was a zerg. He did NOT tell us that he was burning a pot (we would have been a little speedier getting people to the quest entrance if we knew that). And then he left us to bypass a lot of the quest, losing XP in the process, and some named gear someone in the group wanted to try and acquire.

    So why did the guy even bother joining the group? So that we could "tag along" for free XP? Honestly, he did us no favors. It was an EH quest. We could have done it easily.

    This type of zerging behavior needs to be discouraged. It's frickin' rude.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    You should considering Zerging the default play-style . . . simply because it is.

    If you don't want people zerging, and your concerns are legit as it kills first-time emersion, etc . . ., simply say "No Zerging" or "Group Stays together" in the LFM.

  3. #3
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    I think the only way to keep pzergers from joining is to never party. Even then you cant be certain. All opts is one thing you could add. And from experience i think "no pots" would be useful.
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  4. #4
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    I feel for you, just put in the lfm no zurg pls, doing op's. It works 90% of the time
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  5. #5
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You should considering Zerging the default play-style . . . simply because it is.

    If you don't want people zerging, and your concerns are legit as it kills first-time emersion, etc . . ., simply say "No Zerging" or "Group Stays together" in the LFM.
    Zergers should know not to zerg unless the LFm specifically says that it is a zerg.

    And they should take an additional XP penalty for zerging the quest - on top of the penalty they take for not doing all optionals.

    It is only fair...

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Zergers should know not to zerg unless the LFm specifically says that it is a zerg.

    And they should take an additional XP penalty for zerging the quest - on top of the penalty they take for not doing all optionals.

    It is only fair...
    Fair/smair. You need to acknowledge reality.

    99% of the optionals in this gaem aren't worth doing. Blame that on Turbine, don't hate the player hate the game.

    Zerging is the natural evolution of a DDO player. if you know a quest you're gonna run it fast. You should assume people will zerg and if you don't want it state so.

    See here's the thing . . . the zerger is ruinging YOUR fun, you don't ruin his. You're the only one with something to lose. Since you are the only one who can potentially lose out on this interaction it is on you.

    The meek inherit nothing.

  7. #7
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Zergers should know not to zerg unless the LFm specifically says that it is a zerg.

    And they should take an additional XP penalty for zerging the quest - on top of the penalty they take for not doing all optionals.

    It is only fair...
    I think the sign of any courteous player is that they can change their playstyle to suit the group they are in. If the group is slower in getting to the quest, a courteous player will at bare minimum wait for them to get to the door or even go back and help them get there faster. If these things are too much for the zerger, they could politely drop group stating that they are looking for a faster group. No one should be offended by this. In your example, you are talking about not just a zerging player. That describes his speed of play. You are also describing a discourteous player. That describes his social synergy with the rest of the group. I think it's important to note that both qualities are different and independent of eachother.

    If you simply put "no zergers" into the LFM you can stop some but not all of this behavior. Zerging is a very subjective action. I don't consider myself a zerger, but I'd consider taking more than 10 minutes to get to a demonweb quest as slow. In this case, you don't stop "zerging" even by posting it in the lfm.
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  8. #8
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You should considering Zerging the default play-style . . . simply because it is.

    If you don't want people zerging, and your concerns are legit as it kills first-time emersion, etc . . ., simply say "No Zerging" or "Group Stays together" in the LFM.
    +1



    Yup. All kinds of people play the game and you can at least get more players with the same mindset if you are more specific at the outset. I have joined some LFM groups where I was asked questions, told what the goals were and asked to play a certain way - which I have no problem with.
    It can be equally frustrating when most of the group is prepared, prompt and efficient and they have to constantly wait and help someone who seems distracted and un-engaged in the quest.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Fair/smair. You need to acknowledge reality.

    99% of the optionals in this gaem aren't worth doing. Blame that on Turbine, don't hate the player hate the game.

    Zerging is the natural evolution of a DDO player. if you know a quest you're gonna run it fast. You should assume people will zerg and if you don't want it state so.

    See here's the thing . . . the zerger is ruinging YOUR fun, you don't ruin his. You're the only one with something to lose. Since you are the only one who can potentially lose out on this interaction it is on you.

    The meek inherit nothing.
    That's complete nonsense.

    The golden rule when it comes to grouping is to always do what the group leader is doing. It is his or her group, not yours. If the leader is zerging, you zerg. If not, then you don't. That's proper group ettiquite. If you are zerging ahead of the group leader and he or she hasn't said it is OK, you are being rude. If you want to zerg ask the leader if you can or drop and create your own group. Never assume everyone is playing DDO to get maximum XP/minute. Many people have a more relaxed approach to the game. I am one of them.

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  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    That's complete nonsense.
    No it's not, if this wasn't the reality of the game people wouldn't be complaining about it on the forums.


    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Many people have a more relaxed approach to the game. I am one of them.
    And the zerger can ruing YOUR fun, you really can't ruin his.

    Since you're the one with something to lose it is on you.

    Look, I personally don't do this. if I see I'm with a group of newer people and/or first timers I won't ruin things for them. Many people just aren't as awesome as I am and will though.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So, OK, I'm with a group of friends flagging one of my toons for CiTW. The PL throws up an LFM, and someone joins. This is a demonweb quest, which means it's basically chaos getting everyone to the quest (especially if they are new). And yes...I know about the trick of jumping off the edge of the platform.

    So. while we are getting one guy to the quest entrance, the guy who we picked up announces that he's started the quest.

    Ummm...OK?

    So now we rush to get everyone there. We all get in, the person who started the quest a) bypassed most of the quest, and b) was at the end fight. He finishes the endfight, then announces that he has a XP pot going, and left the group because we were "too slow."

    We intended to do optional, however, the guy who joined was the trapper. At least one of the optionals had traps. So that XP was lost.

    Now here's the deal: it was OBVIOUS that they guy could solo the quest, and he was farming XP. I got no problem with that. However, we did NOT specify that this was a zerg. He did NOT tell us that he was burning a pot (we would have been a little speedier getting people to the quest entrance if we knew that). And then he left us to bypass a lot of the quest, losing XP in the process, and some named gear someone in the group wanted to try and acquire.

    So why did the guy even bother joining the group? So that we could "tag along" for free XP? Honestly, he did us no favors. It was an EH quest. We could have done it easily.

    This type of zerging behavior needs to be discouraged. It's frickin' rude.
    Can't explain why they joined. If you want to dictate the speed, be the PL, that's what I do.

    As far as trapping the demonweb (or anywhere w/ spell wards), invest in greater dispell/dispell scrolls stacks. Makes a dedicated trapper unnecessary in the majority/all of FRealm content. I will say that sometimes its good to specify after greeting joiners that we're "buffing, then starting" or similar so you don't have someone decide to enter ahead of you. I'd say most are polite enough to allow the PL to get to the quest before they step in on GLand.

  12. #12
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    Yeah trying to find real world ethics in a video game will never end up well, some people have them, and some don't, you just cant control it.

  13. #13
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    its rude to join someone elses party and start the quest without at least the party leader there. the party leader is the one who says when the party can start the quest, not the players that join the group. its nobodys problem if the group is too slow or that you have a xp pot running. if its that big of a problem for you than don't join or drop group. it is the responsibility of the party leader to put what he wants for a party in the lfm notes and also should say so in party chat or voice so its clear to everyone.
    Gary Gygax quotes

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    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  14. #14
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    its rude to join someone elses party and start the quest without at least the party leader there. the party leader is the one who says when the party can start the quest, not the players that join the group. its nobodys problem if the group is too slow or that you have a xp pot running. if its that big of a problem for you than don't join or drop group. it is the responsibility of the party leader to put what he wants for a party in the lfm notes and also should say so in party chat or voice so its clear to everyone.
    Rude happens.

    Deal with it.

    It is on you to protect your fun, not anybody else.

    Zerging should be considered the default because it is.

  15. #15
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    I once took 1 min afk to pee without asking THE LEADER. True story.

    Why do people solo quests ?
    Because it takes forever for the rest to get there. Duh.

  16. #16
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I dont understand why zergers who are concerned with xp/min join a pug anyhow. Scaling kills the ability to zerg the quest faster, and theres a huge gamble in joining a pug group, that it will have 5 other players capable of keeping up the desired zerg time rate. Better for them to solo or zerg plow quests with friends / quildies who they know are capable and let the pugers enjoy their group experience.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #17
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Rude happens.

    Deal with it.

    It is on you to protect your fun, not anybody else.

    Zerging should be considered the default because it is.
    if I am the party leader or someone else is the party leader and the players that join go against what I want or what the other party leader wants, than I just reform around them or drop group. they can deal with it some place else.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post

    Zerging should be considered the default because it is.
    On the forums, yes. In the game, nope.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No it's not, if this wasn't the reality of the game people wouldn't be complaining about it on the forums.




    And the zerger can ruing YOUR fun, you really can't ruin his.

    Since you're the one with something to lose it is on you.

    Look, I personally don't do this. if I see I'm with a group of newer people and/or first timers I won't ruin things for them. Many people just aren't as awesome as I am and will though.
    To each their own I suppose, but I couldn't disagree more. The fact that the zerger can ruin my fun but I can't ruin his has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is how is the pace determined and by whom?

    And the answer is that it is determined by the leader. This is the leader's group, not the zergers. Groups are a dictatorship, not a democracy. The leader always has the final say in DDO. That gives them the right to set the pace. If the pace is not stated on the LFM it is stated by the leader's actions unless otherwise specified.

    The zerger does not have the right to force their playstyle on everyone else unless it is their group. And zerging cannot be assumed to be the default playstyle since it is not the way the game was intended to be played and it is not the way the game is played by a large portion of the playerbase.

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  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    The zerger does not have the right to force their playstyle on everyone else unless it is their group.
    yes, we do. Because quite bluntly you can't stop us.

    Ask nicely and most will.

    it is the default playstyle.

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