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  1. #61
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinja View Post
    What worries me though is that Turbine might just nerf divine grace completely, not just the splash, and also not adjust the save DCs.

    End result - monkchers and GMoFs can still make all their saves with some adjustments, everyone else fails their saves like level 1 kobolds, and paladins (not just splash) become a completely worthless class.

    Matt, I'm not sure how it would work on a FVS. Mind posting a build? I actually wanted to make a FVS/monk recently and gave up because I couldn't get the saves to work.
    By the way I really like halflings right now - it is so cheap to get good saves enhancement point wise.
    Halfling pure level 28 FVS Dexterity 32, Wisdom 68 (can get far more just a placeholder), Constitution 36, charisma 28. I went with a pure FVS and it will be an exalted angel again just to illustrate. If you go with grandmaster of flowers and splash monk levels you get more saves obviously especially in ocean stance - hitting mid 70s easy for that build.
    +4 Epic Levels
    +12 FVS levels
    +1 Halfling racial
    +3 Halfling luck enhancement
    +4 insight
    + 10 Resistance
    +2 Good Luck
    +4 Greater Heroism
    -------
    50

    +3 vs. all magic Saves (angelic presence Angel of Vengeance)
    +4 inflame temporary saving throws (warpriest)
    Twists:
    Perfection of body +6 fortitude saves
    Cocoon
    Unearthly Reaction +6 reflex saves +3 dodge.
    Ability scores Wis +29, Dexterity +11, Constitution +13.
    Will 82 (86 temporary). Fortitude: 72 (76 temporary), Reflex (70) (74 temporary).

    This does not use any feats by the way which could put this into the mid 80s.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    By the way I really like halflings right now - it is so cheap to get good saves enhancement point wise.
    Halfling pure level 28 FVS Dexterity 32, Wisdom 68 (can get far more just a placeholder), Constitution 36, charisma 28. I went with a pure FVS and it will be an exalted angel again just to illustrate. If you go with grandmaster of flowers and splash monk levels you get more saves obviously especially in ocean stance - hitting mid 70s easy for that build.
    Ah thanks. I didn't count a lot of those things in my math (forgot about Angel of Vengeance and GMoF fort twist option, didn't even consider halfling). So I ended up quite a bit short.

  3. #63
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Since when did my build become "flavor of the month?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  4. #64
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Ho, +30? To say that you only have 30 reflex. Man my sad sad bard has I think 41 or so. How do a score of 30 even on a pure build? Isn't their even a common +8 or 9 resistance item in there? I mean they're even paired with deadly and accuracy and +8 to 10 stats, I think dodge as well. You'd almost have to try not to have a save for 30 or lower.

    Actually my mistake cause I think my bard also uses hero pots/GH scrolls and something else so that's like mid 40's.

    Now if I was making something for epic elite like say my current build im working of that mixes dmg with defense then he's got a save of 50 in reflex, near the same for fort and mid 40's for will at lv 23. And his gear is just vender trash, doesn't even have any twists yet or LD half flushed out.


    Now how about we talk about the real problem. The hells up with rolling a 20 with improved evasion and still taking dmg from a spell trap or a flippn bear trap eh?
    Last edited by goodspeed; 12-26-2013 at 11:33 PM.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  5. #65
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinja View Post
    If by scales to level you mean "divine grace saves bonus is limited to paladin level" I agree, and also tone down the DCs a bit so that there is actual failing and saving going on and not just failing or just saving for most characters.

    Although I may be just agreeing because I still kept those +20 hearts on most characters, in anticipation of divine grace nerf...

    Also, the other day I failed a save in heroic elite tor with a 3+43 roll. Apparently high saves builds (well, high for level 16) can still fail saves in heroic, just not in epic.
    Doesn't it just add your Cha modifyer?
    Just how much Cha does anyone who is not a Sor or Brd have? (and Brd doesn't count with Pal... so back to Sor)

    My Rgr/Rog/Wiz who has never TRed... has an unbuffed 77 Ref save.
    Some is Dex, most is gear.... and since I do not grind for loot.. that means it is easy gear to get.
    (some is Epic Destiny twists... again... anyone can get this.)

    I have a +10 Resist item. Random loot.
    It is lvl 28 I think, but the upgrade to the armors from the madness chains could have +10 to Ref save at lvl 14.

    Greater Parrying is +4.

    I think I have a +7 Dex item, but I have random +8s in the bank if I wanted them.

    Good Luck +2 (Crystal Cove Ring is what I use for Dex and GL)

    Some easy to get named loot has +3 Insightful Dex on it.

    Planar Gird, the necklace from Amrath... or UMD GH scrolls. (if not, go with Heroism pots for +2 to saves at least)




    You do not need Pal ( or Monk) levels to get good saves.

    In short, FOTM does not matter.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 12-26-2013 at 11:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Doesn't it just add your Cha modifyer?
    Just how much Cha does anyone who is not a Sor or Brd have? (and Brd doesn't count with Pal... so back to Sor)

    My Rgr/Rog/Wiz who has never TRed... has an unbuffed 77 Ref save.
    Some is Dex, most is gear.... and since I do not grind for loot.. that means it is easy gear to get.
    (some is Epic Destiny twists... again... anyone can get this.)

    I have a +10 Resist item. Random loot.
    It is lvl 28 I think, but the upgrade to the armors from the madness chains could have +10 to Ref save at lvl 14.

    Greater Parrying is +4.

    I think I have a +7 Dex item, but I have random +8s in the bank if I wanted them.

    Good Luck +2 (Crystal Cove Ring is what I use for Dex and GL)

    Some easy to get named loot has +3 Insightful Dex on it.

    Planar Gird, the necklace from Amrath... or UMD GH scrolls. (if not, go with Heroism pots for +2 to saves at least)




    You do not need Pal ( or Monk) levels to get good saves.

    In short, FOTM does not matter.
    Yes I know you do not absolutely need it which has been mentioned by people already including me who posted screenshot of my monkcher with over 80 in all saves so he would be ok without the paladin levels. That is not the point, apparently you don't understand the arguments being made and I'm not going to draw you a picture.

    And as far as how much charisma people have, between my characters who have divine grace, lowest has 30 and highest has 42 charisma (actually my fighter has less than 30 but he is level 17 atm so he doesn't count).

    Also it is stupid to cite your highest save, a lot of characters have 1 good save, what is your lowest save?
    Last edited by svinja; 12-27-2013 at 12:33 AM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    By the way I really like halflings right now - it is so cheap to get good saves enhancement point wise.
    Halfling pure level 28 FVS Dexterity 32, Wisdom 68 (can get far more just a placeholder), Constitution 36, charisma 28. I went with a pure FVS and it will be an exalted angel again just to illustrate. If you go with grandmaster of flowers and splash monk levels you get more saves obviously especially in ocean stance - hitting mid 70s easy for that build.
    +4 Epic Levels
    +12 FVS levels
    +1 Halfling racial
    +3 Halfling luck enhancement
    +4 insight
    + 10 Resistance
    +2 Good Luck
    +4 Greater Heroism
    -------
    50
    I tried planning my FVS again and again I was hitting too low saves. So I looked back at your post to compare and I just realized something - How did you get 50? Those add up to 40.

    Also how do you get 68+ wisdom?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinja View Post
    I tried planning my FVS again and again I was hitting too low saves. So I looked back at your post to compare and I just realized something - How did you get 50? Those add up to 40.

    Also how do you get 68+ wisdom?
    oh fun i was just calcuating my 70 on my monk.

    18 base

    +3 insightful.
    11 enchantment.
    5 leveling
    1 profane
    6 ed
    1 racial if human
    5 form enhancements.
    5 form book
    2 form primal fury twist i forgot the name of the power
    2 yugo pot
    2 ship buff
    2 exceptional.
    2 form twist
    2 completionist.
    thats 67 assuming no monk spash.
    2 levels of monk spalsh would make a 69 assuming water stance.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    Ho, +30? To say that you only have 30 reflex. Man my sad sad bard has I think 41 or so. How do a score of 30 even on a pure build? Isn't their even a common +8 or 9 resistance item in there? I mean they're even paired with deadly and accuracy and +8 to 10 stats, I think dodge as well. You'd almost have to try not to have a save for 30 or lower.

    Actually my mistake cause I think my bard also uses hero pots/GH scrolls and something else so that's like mid 40's.

    Now if I was making something for epic elite like say my current build im working of that mixes dmg with defense then he's got a save of 50 in reflex, near the same for fort and mid 40's for will at lv 23. And his gear is just vender trash, doesn't even have any twists yet or LD half flushed out.


    Now how about we talk about the real problem. The hells up with rolling a 20 with improved evasion and still taking dmg from a spell trap or a flippn bear trap eh?
    depends what level, alot of my toons dont have more then 30 in all saves below 27-28. my arti considers herself lucky to have higher then 20 in most of her's. (arti's are +6/+6/+12, so a +9 item would take it to +15/+15/+21, then stats roughly 34dex, 28con, 14wis, so, 27/24/25, ... actually think its even lower then that, and she has done quite a few EE's, already had her to 28 and ETR'd her once)

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon2fire View Post
    oh fun i was just calcuating my 70 on my monk.

    18 base

    +3 insightful.
    11 enchantment.
    5 leveling
    1 profane
    6 ed
    1 racial if human
    5 form enhancements.
    5 form book
    2 form primal fury twist i forgot the name of the power
    2 yugo pot
    2 ship buff
    2 exceptional.
    2 form twist
    2 completionist.
    thats 67 assuming no monk spash.
    2 levels of monk spalsh would make a 69 assuming water stance.
    the +2 'exceptional' doesnt stack with the +3, they're both insightful. the only exceptional bonus is a +1, and, not sure what the +5 form enhancements are, thought you could only get +4 from class enhancements (possibly +6 with capstone, but then that'd lower your monk splash, less you take grandmaster stances), and... while if your going for DC's I can see, but it seems like a waste to spend 12 out of 24 of your destiny points in your destiny just for wisdom, sure its there but its only a +3dc mod and it seems like they could be better spent.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    the +2 'exceptional' doesnt stack with the +3, they're both insightful. the only exceptional bonus is a +1, and, not sure what the +5 form enhancements are, thought you could only get +4 from class enhancements (possibly +6 with capstone, but then that'd lower your monk splash, less you take grandmaster stances), and... while if your going for DC's I can see, but it seems like a waste to spend 12 out of 24 of your destiny points in your destiny just for wisdom, sure its there but its only a +3dc mod and it seems like they could be better spent.
    oh your right about the expectional.


    i acutally for got about cap stone in that if you have no racial bonus you can get 5 form the three trees though yes that does not work on a splash and then add 2 for cap stone. Yes its a big investment but i have a 85 qp witch is no fail.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    Currently on Epic elite unless you use certain flavour of the month build you wont make saves. You will roll 19 + 30 and still fail save for trap or spell.
    While certain flavour of the month build (who have 75-80+ saves) can just go afk for hours in trap or spell and will never ever even get hurt for 1 hp (due to not failing on 1 and having absurd saves due to balance-breaking build).
    Same flavour of the month build in addition to such saves have great physical damage avoidance (armor, PRR) and burst damage output, so they are not sacrificing anything for such high saves.

    Of cause someone can wonder why it matters to me, since its not pvp game and balace dont matter at all.
    Well, it does matter. Developers give extremely high DC to traps and spells in hopes to challenge flavour of the month build players, they usualy dont have challenge but for usual players we come to situation when roll of 19+30 means failing.

    Seriously, it forces you to follow certain game-breaking build to be able to avoid spells and trap damage. Or if you dont follow you just get destroyed by absurd DC's.


    Maybe tone down both absurd amount of saves from certain build AND tone down spell and traps DC's at same time? This way group of flavour of the month players will still be challenged by DC, but at same time usual players will get chance to pass DCs too without forcing them to roll in certain build. Making only few builds viable for end-game destroys DDO.
    Hi,

    This is just wrong, I'm sorry.

    My main is a ranger/rogue with one level of fighter. No monk levels. No paladin levels. He reliably makes his reflex saves in upper end EE content.

    It took effort, a decent build and good gearing. But no, making saves is not only for FOTM builds. It's easier with some of them, but it's not impossible for everyone else. It's just something you have to work at, which perhaps is how it should be for the upper difficulty levels. A save bonus of 30 is very low for endgame content; heroic level characters have better saves than that.

    My main's will and fort saves aren't so good, but guess what? With spell absorbtion gear and sensible game play, you can reduce the number of effects you have to save against, and the number of saves you have to make. Having lower saves in those areas hasn't been a problem for me either.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

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