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  1. #1
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    Default Precision feat worth it?

    Still playing my first "real" rogue character (a TWF assassin-style build), and I took precision on the idea that it would be useful for ensuring I get sneak attack damage. My experience so far is that it does nothing to help against SA-resistant foes (undead and constructs, who are "immune" to SA and not just 100% fort), and whether I turn it on or not doesn't seem to matter for anything else. The +5% to hit sounds nice, but as it's % and not *+5 *to hit, the impact is pretty marginal.

    Currently lvl 14. It is useful later? (bearing in mind that I already have Opportunist, and the Assassin's Trick core ability grants a chance to reduce fortification AND SA immunity by 25% for intelligent foes) Useful only on certain settings, like EE?

    Thanks in advance!

    PS: Assassin's trick has never worked on intelligent undead, despite me being a max-Int, pure rogue build. Be interested to know if anyone else has got it to work.

  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Precision doesnt bypass "crit immunity or sneak attack immunity" this is what assassins trick does.

    What precision does is subtract from the amount of fortification the mob has against your attacks, which means more sneak attacks and crits landed by you.

    Ive used assassins trick on The Truthful One and gotten sneak attack damage on quite a few of my hits afterwards. It also works on the construct boss in eVON 5.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What precision does is subtract from the amount of fortification the mob has against your attacks, which means more sneak attacks and crits landed by you.
    Right. So, I guess what I'm asking is whether there are a lot of non-undead/non-construct mobs with 100% fortification I need to worry about. If the rate at which my other melee toons crit is a good indicator of how heavily fortified stuff is, I'd have to say "not at all". To date, running on elite, if I'm in SA position on a non-immune foe, I *never* seem to have SA resisted because of fortification. If that changes at higher levels, then Precision will be pretty important; if not, it's pretty useless.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
    Right. So, I guess what I'm asking is whether there are a lot of non-undead/non-construct mobs with 100% fortification I need to worry about. If the rate at which my other melee toons crit is a good indicator of how heavily fortified stuff is, I'd have to say "not at all". To date, running on elite, if I'm in SA position on a non-immune foe, I *never* seem to have SA resisted because of fortification. If that changes at higher levels, then Precision will be pretty important; if not, it's pretty useless.
    Precision is mathematically better than power attack on anything with more than 20% fortification in most cases in endgame. This is a lot of EE mobs. I can't imagine a rogue without precision. I run precision on all of my melee at endgame whenever stuff has fort. When it doesn't, power attack.

    Edit: As for the assassains trick, that probably complicates it a bit more, I didn't have that ability when I was running my rogue.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
    Still playing my first "real" rogue character (a TWF assassin-style build), and I took precision on the idea that it would be useful for ensuring I get sneak attack damage. My experience so far is that it does nothing to help against SA-resistant foes (undead and constructs, who are "immune" to SA and not just 100% fort), and whether I turn it on or not doesn't seem to matter for anything else. The +5% to hit sounds nice, but as it's % and not *+5 *to hit, the impact is pretty marginal..

    Undead and Constructs do have 100% fort, and it is reduced to 75% by Precision. I've got crits and sneak attack on undead and constructs when using Precision (and no other fort reduction abilities).

    +5% is better than +5 to hit at higher levels, due to the weird AC calculations.

    Geoff.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
    Still playing my first "real" rogue character (a TWF assassin-style build), and I took precision on the idea that it would be useful for ensuring I get sneak attack damage. My experience so far is that it does nothing to help against SA-resistant foes (undead and constructs, who are "immune" to SA and not just 100% fort), and whether I turn it on or not doesn't seem to matter for anything else. The +5% to hit sounds nice, but as it's % and not *+5 *to hit, the impact is pretty marginal.

    Currently lvl 14. It is useful later? (bearing in mind that I already have Opportunist, and the Assassin's Trick core ability grants a chance to reduce fortification AND SA immunity by 25% for intelligent foes) Useful only on certain settings, like EE?

    Thanks in advance!

    PS: Assassin's trick has never worked on intelligent undead, despite me being a max-Int, pure rogue build. Be interested to know if anyone else has got it to work.
    You are aware that "+5 to hit" is garbage and MAY only end up being 5%? In fact, it could be 0%, and for many toons, it is.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
    Right. So, I guess what I'm asking is whether there are a lot of non-undead/non-construct mobs with 100% fortification I need to worry about. If the rate at which my other melee toons crit is a good indicator of how heavily fortified stuff is, I'd have to say "not at all". To date, running on elite, if I'm in SA position on a non-immune foe, I *never* seem to have SA resisted because of fortification. If that changes at higher levels, then Precision will be pretty important; if not, it's pretty useless.
    Later in the game yes.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffWatson View Post
    Undead and Constructs do have 100% fort, and it is reduced to 75% by Precision. I've got crits and sneak attack on undead and constructs when using Precision (and no other fort reduction abilities).
    I gather from other postings I've browsed today that some constructs have 100% fort rather than being immune (shroud portals, for example, though Precision didn't actually work on them at the time of the posting), but what undead have you managed to get SA on? I haven't had SA land on a single undead since getting precision at lvl 6, and, everything I've read elsewhere says undead are immune (hence the need for Assassin's Trick, which I can't get to work!).

  9. #9
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Having raised rogues and monks to epic levels with both Precision and Power Attack, I now choose Power Attack over Precision.

    I might experiment more with rogue assassin builds using Precision in the future. This could be worthwhile at epic levels that I just didn't give enough time to explore.
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  10. #10
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    I assumed it was automatic to go power attack for two-handed fighting and precision for two-weapon fighting?
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  11. #11
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    Depends on the situation.

    If enemy already have 0% fortification after all of your current bonuses from item/feat/active, and you have no trouble hitting, then power attack is better.
    If enemy has 100% fortification even after you use precision, then power attack is better. (Or if the enemy is sneak attack immune and non-intelligent)

    In a lot of cases power attack would be better, but keep in mind in all other cases precision will out-shine the +4 damage from power attack provided you have decent sneak damage.

    Being a lvl 14 rogue, you already have 7 sneak die from level, and with the 4 from enhancement, that's about 38.5 of avg sneak attack damage per attack per hand.
    A precision provides 25% fort reduction, that means you get 25% more chances to deal sneak attack. On average, that's about 9.6 dmg per attack per hand; much more than what a power attack would give you. This is not even counting the sneak damage from tharnes and other items.

    Against sneak immunity monsters, provided you can remove the immunity, then precision is always handy, since even after sneak immunity is removed, they still have 100% fort.

    My advice:
    Keep both, and when you see you're missing sneak attack damage, turn on precision.

  12. #12
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    For rogues, crit builds, and ranged builds, it works nice. I use both precision and heavy draw from deepwood at the same time, it's wonderful.

  13. #13
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    I've gotten Assassin's trick to work successfully on the ancient giant skeletons in Madstone and Tor, on the ice elementals in the Stormhorns, on the Marut in PoP...it doesn't work every time, but given the difference in DPS between a rogue with and without SA, the few attacks lost trying is usually worth it in my opinion, especially if your party members also have sneak attack damage. In the Stormhorns, I was running with a Mechanic using a repeater, and the difference in how long it took to kill an ice element with and without SA was very noticeable.

    As for +5% being worse than +5 to-hit, you're wrong. Because of the way the to-hit formulas work now, +5 to-hit could be worth anywhere from between +0% and +2% probably at endgame depending on your to-hit bonus and the monster you're attacking. +5% is always going to be +5%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    As for +5% being worse than +5 to-hit, you're wrong. Because of the way the to-hit formulas work now, +5 to-hit could be worth anywhere from between +0% and +2% probably at endgame depending on your to-hit bonus and the monster you're attacking. +5% is always going to be +5%.
    I don't want to get too side-tracked on this point, but as with a lot of things in DDO, it depends on what level you're at and what difficulty you're playing. Based on the AC/to-hit grids I've seen, +5% is better than +5 only once your to-hit and enemy AC are up around the 40 or 50 range. Depending on your class, that's not before mid-teens I think. So, I stand corrected for higher-level content and certainly epics.

    Thanks for the responses. Sounds like although I haven't needed precision so far, I probably will.

  15. #15
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Precision 25% bypass
    Grim Precision Shadow Dancer 15% bypass
    Black Dragon Armor 3rd Tier 20% bypass

    60% bypass I Crit on everything

    Opportunist would give you 10% more but, I don't generally have 10 Rogue levels

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    Precision 25% bypass
    Grim Precision Shadow Dancer 15% bypass
    Black Dragon Armor 3rd Tier 20% bypass

    60% bypass I Crit on everything

    Opportunist would give you 10% more but, I don't generally have 10 Rogue levels
    Why not have it. I mean not only is it great for SA, it's all around nice for a burst with manyshot builds as it works at the same time with archers, or ips.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    Why not have it. I mean not only is it great for SA, it's all around nice for a burst with manyshot builds as it works at the same time with archers, or ips.
    as I stated most of my builds don't have 10 Rogue levels

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