To be clear, I am hoping you or someone else can demonstrate S&B is viable now, at least for single-target DPS; I've got at least 2 or 3 S&B alts I've been leveling (trying to hit 20 to get my free epic TR hearts). Basically, I'm hoping the extra hits from doublestrikes + shield bashing help make up for everything which favors THF these days. But it takes more than a few stray comments to prove one's point. Part of why I emphasizes tactics in my S&B builds is it felt like focusing on raw DPS was a losing proposition; whereas +6 STR from Gtr Defensive Stance gave me +3 tactics DCs, so I decided to try to build on that (Kensei & dwarf racial bonuses, Power Surge, etc.).
I compared it to Bliz. Not the hammer.
Pft imperfect numbers - you added content then acted like I was crazy for not using it originally :P
Last edited by Xianio; 12-24-2013 at 03:41 PM.
As I said before, gear matters a lot in any DPS discussion; and since you're now mentioning epic weapons by name, thanks for proving my point for me.
Anyway S&B being better than THF/TWF is not the point. Since S&B should bring other benefits, it's more about a s&b build's output in dps mode being close to the top dps builds.
Fundamentally, video's like Haek are really the true tests.
It's also one reason why Haek is often successful at putting good builds together - he tests things in game.
S&B has got a bad wrap in the past due to bugs, nerfs and generally lack of need to have aggro tanks since the shift to epic levels.
Given that shield bashing is supposed now fixed, is the item effect "Shield Bashing - 20%" stacking with the "Improved Shield Bash" feat as described in the description?
Do the Bashing Nd6 effects get added on any shield bash or only bashing when blocking?
Additional bashing damage is added during "auto-bashes." I've tested it out with physical and elemental based damage bonuses. Power attack and deadly are also applying.
Still haven't got a shield that gives a large enough amount of +% to bash to answer that for you.
I've been toying with an odd s&b build. 13pal/5wiz/2ftr. It's just an attempt to combine the Eldritch Knight S&B benefits, doublestrike and the PRR/AC gains of the SLA's with a paladin defender base. I went bladeforged, but think that a better "all in" approach might be to go with dwarf. I don't expect too much out of EE content. It's more of a test just to see what I can do with a high AC build. Self cast extended displacement seems like a nice bonus to go with the radiant forcefield sla in the dwarf racial tree and the forcefield proc in the eldritch tree.
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
If you can get 20% (shield) + 15% (enhancement) + 20% (Improved Shield Bash) = 55% shield bash chance per hit. That's a significant figure. Combined with dwarven axe or bastard sword with 50% glancing blows and is pretty much equal to full GTWF+tempest/monk - ignoring double strikes: 100% main hand + 50% glancing + 55% shield vs 100% main hand + 100% off-hand.
PTWF off-hand double-strike may not apply to the shield. So might gain back there.
Second, shield users can get additional doublestrike bonuses over TWF. Plus if Dwarf Fortress stacks on both the shield and main weapon, then that works well with a high base damage in comparison say weapon attachment.
In terms of shield bashes, bear in mind that shields aren't really weapons. They've got a 20/x3 critical modifier, rarely (I'd say 'never' but I'll leave a little wiggle room) come with both +20% bashing and stacked weapon effects and few of your enhancements/feats will apply. So that 55% chance of shield bash probably ends up being equivalent to around "30% of main hand damage".
In contrast, your off-hand weapon will probably be about 90% of your main hand damage if you've got 100% off-hand attacks.
I think S&B can work if you're playing a character who isn't full dps, but instead has some other important support role that precludes gearing/enhancing for pure dps. In such a circumstance, you can use the S&B style (and enhancements) to dramatically boost your survivability over a comparable TWF/THF build while not seriously hindering your dps.
Yeah, I forgot to account for this when thinking about it. 3 in 4 swings with GTHF is a glancing blow. So effectively 37.5% from glancing blows.
Lack of IC is a real pain. If I put a spreadsheet together I'll have to remember that.
Ignoring that fact there are no end game raids that "forced" (*) the use of tanks - like we had in the past (LOB, other raids before power creep) - there is no middle ground at the moment for tank builds.
(*) Forced maybe meaning easier or whatever. Like many MMOs more dps+hps will solve most problems.
Lets see, 2[2d6]+7, 19-20/x2 vs 2[2d10]+8, 20/x3. Assuming OC applies:
(21 + B) * 17 + (21 + B + S ) * 2 * 3
(30 + B) * 18 + (30 + B + S) * 1 * 4
357 + 126 + 23 * B + 6 * S
540 + 120 + 22 * B + 4 * S
483 + 23 * B + 6 * S
660 + 22 * B + 4 * S
=> Aegis is worse if 177 < B + 2S.
So Aegis is going to be better pretty much all of the time.
Last edited by emptysands; 01-06-2014 at 04:44 PM.
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
I don't know if they "line up" (I never did a 1000 hit test) but I did notice an increase in the number of bashes going from just the feat to the feat + the enhancements. So, there's still hope :PThere is also the SD/Shield Striking tier 2 enhancement. Be nice to know is the percentages actually line up as you'd wish. Never easy to tell with DDO.
Which feats do you believe not count? Improved Critical currently isn't believed to work but otherwise I'm not sure which feats work with the off-hand but don't work with shields.and few of your enhancements/feats will apply
Also, shields retain a full ability modifier to damage while offhand only gets 0.5 ability modifiers to damage.
I've HEARD this (ie: rumor status only) that doublestrikes that occur during an animation that triggers a glancing blow attack ALSO trigger a second glancing blow.Glancing blows aren't actually "50% of main hand damage". They can't crit and you also only get 75% yield (50% yield while moving) since they don't occur on every swing. So it's more like "25% of main hand damage".
Since a good S&B build will generally have over 50 doublestrike, that could mean some serious extra damage. ***Just to be doubly clear: I haven't tested this yet and I may be just passing along nonsense***
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