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  1. #21
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The thing I want more than anything is a clear focus.

    Either it's a boss encounter focus (minimal time spent on trash, shrine before each boss, like DQ2 and Chronoscope), or it's a '12 person quest' feel, like Tempest Spine or VON5, or it's a teamwork encounter feel (like VON6 pillars component, or Fall of Truth disciple phases).

    The thing I least want to see is 9-11 people twiddling their thumbs while 1-3 people determine the success or failure of the attempt (Abbot minigames, Titan laser, Reaver's Fate), or a raid where every attempt at the climactic encounter takes a long time to get to but the path to that climactic encounter is too easy to entertain a group that can realistically attempt the climax (LOB/MA/Shroud after part 2 was nerfed).
    You had a great-sounding idea for a raid some time back involving a green dragon and a demon or devil that has possessed it, with variables occurring throughout the raid depending on what the players do--different monsters, different attacks, different loot.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  2. #22
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CavernDragon View Post
    I was talking with some friends who are big into PnP and were talking about a big group raid setting. They play that Other D&D game MMO.. and like the way you can make your own quests. Seeing that we dont have that here yet.. Hint Hint Devs... How about

    If you were story boarding a new end game raid :
    A story arc that features us as the heroes, and not the babysitters, that feels epic (preventing an evil plane from becoming coterminous with ours, destroying a lich bent on attaining godhood, etc...).


    Pre-quest : Yes or No
    No. No one likes having to run VoN 5 every time they want to run VoN 6, and even fewer people like ADQ-DQ. That said, I also don't like the boss-only raids, where we step in and fight a boss waiting in a big room for us.

    Puzzles / Hack n Slash / Split group up (Titan)
    I like the longer raids that involve more than just hackin' an' slashin': Von 5, Twilight Forge, Tempest's Spine, The Shroud, Tower of Despair, Lord of Blades, Master Artificer. That said, I dislike the green-side puzzle in Twilight Forge (mostly because it is difficult to figure out on your own, inside the raid, without outside sources, and because a mistake can cause the raid to be impassible); I dislike the run-up for LoB and MA, and the unnecessary repetition in LoB and Shroud 1.


    I like some variety; I enjoy the Mastermind puzzle in Reaver's Fate, but, rightly, most folks don't enjoy putting the success or failure of their raid in the hands of one person (others can contribute advice, but that is only sometimes worthwhile or effective, and often confusing), especially after spending 10-20 minutes doing the hard part.

    The puzzle in VoN 5 works well, because there is no failure mechanism, you have as much time as you like, but have a little pressure from constant spawns. This, I think, is the right way to go. Ditto for Shroud part 3.
    Setting (Location location location) Underdark, Dungeons, City, forest ect…
    I'd like a raid set in the Underdark. I'd also like a raid that involves us storming a castle, whether in a King's Forest sort of setting, a Stormhorns setting, or a Shavarath setting. I'd also like a raid set in Dolurrh.
    Monsters:
    Don't care as long as they are thematically appropriate, appropriate to the level of epicness of the raid (no rats and dogs).
    End Boss:
    I want a raid that features a dragon as the final boss, who casts spells, flies, and employs the environment and cunning to give us a really hard time of it.

    I'd also like a raid where we fight an assemblage of powerful devils or demons together. Tower of Despair did this a little, but I'd like one where we feel the weight of all those amassed forces more.
    Loot type (crafting Like shroud) Upgradeable like CitW or just Here it is take it or leave it.
    Customizable loot wins by miles here.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  3. #23
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    For the most part, what Sirgog stated.

    Personally, a few other things also.

    I'd exclude pre-raids. If the Devs want a long raid encounter, Tempest Spine and Chronoscope are the templates to look at, not Von5/6. BTW Flagging quests are of course fine, as long as they don't have to be ran every time you want to do the raid, hence "exclude pre-raids".

    If the raid is going to be deep in a wilderness area, then ToD is the templete. VoD and HoX aren't very bad when running as a group, but raid wilderness areas stink, as LoD and MA have shown. So stick with ToD as an example: players can find the enterance in a group or on their own once, however they can teleport there at will in the future (without a Shard cost).

    And NO MORE ESCORT QUESTS or RAIDS. No one likes them. I won't go as far as say no more protection quests, because I can still see future quests and raids that contain a protect <insert animate object> from mobs or raid boss. But Escort Protection quests and raids stink, unless the escort can fight and their death doesn't affect the outcome of the raid or quest (such as the friendly Sahuagin that appear in Into the Deep).


    I think VON5 would have made an excellent stand-alone 12 person quest, perhaps part of one-time flagging for VON6.

    But as soon as it is required to be run every time you run VON6 it becomes a dull chore that players zerg.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    I think VON5 would have made an excellent stand-alone 12 person quest, perhaps part of one-time flagging for VON6.

    But as soon as it is required to be run every time you run VON6 it becomes a dull chore that players zerg.
    The runs I join it is more like VON6 being the thing you run at the end of VON5 - because VON5 is where all the XP is at.

    Though I guess that depends on how many in the group are there for XP, and how many are still desperately trying to get an eSoS (I have no parts for an eSoS and depending on the toon would most likely hand over whatever I got - other than the scroll which I would sell).

  5. #25

    Default imagination more than brawn

    Level 8-10 pseudo-raid that is purely skill based in every element. Have the raid split into different rooms, with diverse features: randomly generated puzzles, a trap room with air blasts that shoot the toons back to the beginning, an obstacle course that requires twitch skills, some section that is underwater, a stealth section, some infuriating babysitting via Intim and/or bluff, all with some kind of Xoriat/madness element (of course). In fact, I would make it with as little fighting as possible--make it require cooperation, skillful playing, intelligence, and imagination more than brawn.

    Flagging: Some kind of Saga of currently existing quests that play into this idea. Home Sweet Sewer, Stealthy Repossession, Prove Your Worth, Xorian Cypher, Spies in the House, Gladewatch (ok not best choices)

    Definitely needs to be randomly generated so that it is different each time.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Most of people want raids requiring no flaging, located at ship entrance, requring no brain, no skill, no build, no gear for 10 minutes autocompletion.

    This is why we will never have good raids in DDO.
    You forgot /autoattack on.

    Have to admit, we do have some good raids right now - but we need more.

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    I think VON5 would have made an excellent stand-alone 12 person quest, perhaps part of one-time flagging for VON6.

    But as soon as it is required to be run every time you run VON6 it becomes a dull chore that players zerg.
    Even though I really dislike Von5, I agree it would have been a great stand alone Raid.

    And yes, I'd love for Von5 and DQ1 to both be one and done flagging quests for the raid. I guess Twilight Forge could be included also, but I'm a bit ignorant of that particular pre-raid since I've only ran the two flagging quests from Restless Isles in the 3 1/2 years that I've owned the pack.

  8. #28
    Community Member Zillee's Avatar
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    Something that involves a race? Manning an airship vs a dragon? Or something gladiatorial ... everyone on mounts of some kind that completes a circuit a number of times with various hazards and room for sabotaging the competition? Quality of loot won depends on the placing at the end vs the NPC competitors!

    I have no idea about DnD lore so someone else would need to come up with the story concept

  9. #29
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    easily accessible entrance!!!

  10. #30
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    easily accessible entrance!!!
    I like a run and gun raid like house j's, or the shrouds kinda run and gun.

    And yes, running through an explorer Continent to get to a raid is flippn annoying. Probably why I never do the 2nd series citw quests. Annoying enough jogging, but then toss in 3d architectural bridges on a 1d map where you dont really go for slayer so theirs no photo memory of it, and theirs the answer.

    GH would probably be the same for the far left side map quests except they give you a teleport. And sweet jesus christ I don't need to go on an epic lifetime quests to get the jist of the thing to enter. Just gimme the raid man, I understand 3 or 4 quests before hand to flag it (don't need no old Von 5 6 reflaggings going on) But 6, 8 more? Heh to the Ell no.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    One of the things I think the Shroud puzzles really get right is that you have a chance to 'learn' the puzzle by yourself, but without risking screwing up the raid for everyone.

    So, for example, if the Reaver's fate puzzle guy screws up, then the raid fails for everyone. So there's a great resistance to letting a new guy try his hand at the puzzle. In the Shroud puzzles, you are in the room with the puzzle by yourself, and can try to solve it. But, if you take too long, one of the more experienced people will eventually come along and do it. Of course, this costs time, which can potentially lead to failure, but it's not {b]YOUR FAULT[/b] that the whole raid failed. It takes a lot of people screwing up on the puzzles and then people getting killed by the rainbow to screw it up.

    But there's no room in to Abbott Goggles puzzle for someone who doesn't really know what they are doing. Worst of all, the only place to try to practice the goggles puzzle is in the raid. If, for example, there was a similar puzzle in the Necro4 flagging quests, then you could practice there, but there isn't.

  12. #32
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Something with enemies that builds notoriety over the rise of the characters lifetime would be fantastic.

    I've watched the original devil invasion vids on youtube and I still wish I could have been part of the experience. That kind of atmospheric build up is what <I believe> we want.

    Could it be some Arena style setup? (not as basic as FOT, lets get some grand designs in and push the engine)

    Multiple bosses? Go with a tried and true Undead elven archer (build it up to be a mercy kill from party & a complete Sylvanas Windrunner clone), maybe a Bladeforged FvS for that Ebberon cool factor and something very awesome and very traditional D&D like a Githyanki

    3 way party Split? Limitation on kiting (Sticky effect, Archer has Pin enhancement), More options than surround and pound.

    How about the Bosses disjunct (just to have the effect in more than ...2? places in the game), maybe gate in something very very bad, open up the Astral plane?

    How about a boss who casts more than a small handful of spells? Actually charms a player into fighting for him, Drops an orb of annihilation on the party and then throws a rod of disruption at the orb, bleeds when we cut him (or some other physical sign of hurt).

    How about destructive and adaptive environments? Not just floors falling and we end up in another room below.

    How about Intelligent enemies who cast protection spells *before* the party gets to them, doesn't just blindly charge in.


    I want an epic battle. I want to fail and keep coming back. I want it to never be on Lamania [I want it to be worked out on live, not by unlimited resource supertoons on a preview server].

    In fact, I want the next raid to actually be so epic that we need to wait until the following update in order to gather the knowledge, skills and equipment needed to beat the raid.

  13. #33
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Thinking about settings and ideas:

    Droam Counter Attack (Who else just wanted to jump of the cliff in Diplomatic Impunity?).

    Xoriat Expedition (Bergthrim was pretty good at working that portal, been a lot of interesting encounters with inhabitants already, and has made for some very good quest designs, Did Yalthoon serve anyone?).

    Demon *AND* Eladrin sections of Shavarath (Oh I hope these are realised).

    Dorruth & Lamania Expedition via the Twelve's Planescaller.

    The Mournlands.

    Arggonesson Invasion (Lets get back at those scheming dragons).

    Uncover the undead menace within the Undying Court.




    Really, there is a HUGE amount of rich and fantastic lore to be explored in Ebberon. Just continuing Shavarath would be fantastic (or any other not quite finished story in DDO).


    A selection of low and mid level raids would be nice, maybe a goblin inspired one for lv 5-7? A Droam one at 14, Xoriat at 18, Demon Shavarath at 27, Eladrin at 29, Mournlands set at 32 (Just to make it good and hard, typical of the environment).

  14. #34
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    You forgot /autoattack on.

    Have to admit, we do have some good raids right now - but we need more.
    There are no long and complex raids in DDO, we just got quick and easy 12 man quests.

    Ideal raid should take long time and high amount of coordination to complete, in DDO, the only non soloable raids are when 2 or more objects need to be used at the same time.

    Raids in DDO are terribly easy, and requires 0 or almost 0 tactics, just go and beat on boss.

    While having a raid requiring gear from the other raid is impossible, because DDO loot is set of unique properties instead of +X% DPS like in other games (which is good) having hated raid flags and pre raids is good thing, as it may serve to prepare players for what they will encounter inside.

    Complex raid should have long phases, each giving some sort of loot (preferabely barter/crafting style) and after players are passes all, they have acces to last one with best items in raid and final boss.
    Using some sort of pre raid so players can complete parts 1 on friday, 2 on saturday and 3,4 and boss on sunday would be better than complete everything at once or don't start. That's why preraids are good. Turbine just can't use them correctly in DDO.

    Of course, good, long and complex raids are impossible to happen in DDO, because over-entitled, casual socialistic players unable to find guilds or friends, will whine and cry that they can't pug anything.
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  15. #35
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    1. It must be skill based and make use of a large number of different skills. (Think Partycrashers where diplo/bluff, etc. make a large difference to the end fight.)
    2. Puzzles can be fun.
    3. I like the idea of the party splitting up and a number of disciplines being neccesary for each party.
    4. I don't mind a pre-raid if it is something as awesome as VoN5.
    5. I like the idea of a raid that drops crafting loot which gives you a reason to run it.

    Actually, make a raid that is just plaigerised from the VoN chain.

  16. #36

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    The story background:

    Whatever fits the pack.
    Just don't have super-super long forced verbal expositions.
    It gets old really fast listening to Lolth or whoever gave the same monologue over and over.

    Pre-quest : Yes or No

    Flag - yes.
    Pre-quest - no.
    I don't like to have to re-flag each time like adq/dq or have a huge run up like LoB.
    A 'Two Part' raid, like VoN 5&6 or Titan, is fine with me.

    Puzzles / Hack n Slash / Split group up (Titan)

    Anything that isn't 'surround boss and beat down'.
    I like when knowledge is a factor (puzzles) and coordination with teammates.
    On puzzles - I like a puzzle that is random (not the same solution every time) but do-able in your head, like the shroud puzzles. I hate fighting on puzzles, dead mobs on puzzles, puzzles that pets can mess up, or puzzles that are hard to target or frustrating to see or operate.
    Splitting up is ok as long as it doesn't lead to periods where half the party is just sitting around waiting for the other half. Down-time is no good.

    Setting (Location location location) Underdark, Dungeons, City, forest ect…

    Something novel.
    So whatever hasn't been done yet.
    Setting and mood make a huge difference so being stuck in a bland room with the boss isn't as much fun as something epicly exotic

    Monsters:

    Variety.
    Somethings that can be insta-killed, some that can't.
    Somethings that chase you. Some that snipe you.
    Having one type of toon be super-effective the whole raid while other types of characters can do nothing is bad.

    End Boss:

    There should be different phases of the fight.
    The boss should have mobility (I'm looking at you, belly button)
    The boss should be dangerous.
    Melee surrounding boss and healers just going through the cycle is bad.

    Loot type (crafting Like shroud) Upgradeable like CitW or just Here it is take it or leave it.

    My gut says I prefer crafting due to the variety.
    But honestly, unless it's endgame gear, I doubt I'm going to grind all that stuff for a transition item that I will quickly outgrow.
    So 'take it/leave it' is what I'd really like unless it is an endgame item.
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  17. #37
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillymiket View Post
    The story background:

    Whatever fits the pack.
    Just don't have super-super long forced verbal expositions.
    It gets old really fast listening to Lolth or whoever gave the same monologue over and over.

    Pre-quest : Yes or No

    Flag - yes.
    Pre-quest - no.
    I don't like to have to re-flag each time like adq/dq or have a huge run up like LoB.
    A 'Two Part' raid, like VoN 5&6 or Titan, is fine with me.
    I do not like long walks to long raids. Long walks to short raids, that's ok.

    Puzzles / Hack n Slash / Split group up (Titan)

    Anything that isn't 'surround boss and beat down'.
    I like when knowledge is a factor (puzzles) and coordination with teammates.
    On puzzles - I like a puzzle that is random (not the same solution every time) but do-able in your head, like the shroud puzzles. I hate fighting on puzzles, dead mobs on puzzles, puzzles that pets can mess up, or puzzles that are hard to target or frustrating to see or operate.
    Splitting up is ok as long as it doesn't lead to periods where half the party is just sitting around waiting for the other half. Down-time is no good.
    Shroud danger-wall/crystals and shroud floor puzzles (same phase) are both awesome examples. You have options, and you can sacrifice loot for progress - and since all the loot isn't simply in the end chest, those chests contain useful materials and shards.

    Setting (Location location location) Underdark, Dungeons, City, forest ect…

    Something novel.
    So whatever hasn't been done yet.
    Setting and mood make a huge difference so being stuck in a bland room with the boss isn't as much fun as something epicly exotic

    Monsters:

    Variety.
    Somethings that can be insta-killed, some that can't.
    Somethings that chase you. Some that snipe you.
    Having one type of toon be super-effective the whole raid while other types of characters can do nothing is bad.

    End Boss:

    There should be different phases of the fight.
    The boss should have mobility (I'm looking at you, belly button)
    The boss should be dangerous.
    Melee surrounding boss and healers just going through the cycle is bad.
    Multiple bosses would be nice, random from a set even (like shroud mini bosses) but with a "near each other" and "near a zone" benefit, so if you separate, there's an additional consequence / hazard so it isn't just a separate, kite and kill.

    Loot type (crafting Like shroud) Upgradeable like CitW or just Here it is take it or leave it.

    My gut says I prefer crafting due to the variety.
    But honestly, unless it's endgame gear, I doubt I'm going to grind all that stuff for a transition item that I will quickly outgrow.
    So 'take it/leave it' is what I'd really like unless it is an endgame item.
    .
    Short raids should drop made items at the end, possibly with upgrades. They could be lower ML than the raid (say Reaver, VoD, HoX) and have value.

    Long raids would be better with an alchemical / shroud mechanism.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    The story background:
    3BC gets hit by an unknown force unsettling the local pirate population. One Eyed Quint is looking for the heroes from heroic 3BC to find out what´s going on and to end the menace for 3BC. During exploring epic 3BC, the heroes find out that Kraken took over with the help of paragon Sahuagin from the deepest seas and lots of undead pirates. They find out that the Kraken are looking for the "Hearth of the Cove", a mighty artefact that would allow them to free a strange dark god from one of the nether planes. They kill the lesser Kraken overlords and proceed to confront the Elder Kraken. In the raid the heroes will finally understand that the Elder Kraken is already ascending to godhood and wants to devour the strange god in order to succeed him. The adventurers can only try to stop this when the Kraken is in the process of devouring the god and therefore cannot uphold his defenses. The Battle is joined...

    Pre-quest : Yes (kill lesser Kraken overlords - one per quest in epic 3BC)

    Puzzles / Hack n Slash / Split group up (Titan) : lot´s of H&S and split groups. No too complicated puzzles.

    Setting (Location location location) Underdark, Dungeons, City, forest ect… : 3 BC (wilderness turns in raid wilderness... 3 stages, aereal battle with airships against the pirate minions, fighting the kraken elites on debris islands after the aereal battle, fighting the Elder kraken in his underwater laiw, with the same physical engine as in endgame of Red Fens.)

    Monsters: Undead Pirates, lesser Krakens, paragon sahuagin. Different classes.

    End Boss: Elder Kraken

    Loot type (crafting Like shroud) Upgradeable like CitW or just Here it is take it or leave it: Ubgradeable, perhaps craftable, epic sets.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Multiple bosses would be nice, random from a set even (like shroud mini bosses)
    Yeah not knowing what you are going to get is fun.
    I'd love a boss that behaves differently as well.
    For example - sometimes the boss tanks, sometimes casts spells, sometimes uses minions.
    That way you'd have to have a few different battle plans depending on which tactic the boss was using this go around.

    PS- haven't logged in a year and still need to pass rep around before adding to Voodoo's groove :-)
    .
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  20. #40
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    There are no long and complex raids in DDO, we just got quick and easy 12 man quests.

    Ideal raid should take long time and high amount of coordination to complete, in DDO, the only non soloable raids are when 2 or more objects need to be used at the same time.

    Raids in DDO are terribly easy, and requires 0 or almost 0 tactics, just go and beat on boss.

    While having a raid requiring gear from the other raid is impossible, because DDO loot is set of unique properties instead of +X% DPS like in other games (which is good) having hated raid flags and pre raids is good thing, as it may serve to prepare players for what they will encounter inside.

    Complex raid should have long phases, each giving some sort of loot (preferabely barter/crafting style) and after players are passes all, they have acces to last one with best items in raid and final boss.
    Using some sort of pre raid so players can complete parts 1 on friday, 2 on saturday and 3,4 and boss on sunday would be better than complete everything at once or don't start. That's why preraids are good. Turbine just can't use them correctly in DDO.

    Of course, good, long and complex raids are impossible to happen in DDO, because over-entitled, casual socialistic players unable to find guilds or friends, will whine and cry that they can't pug anything.


    Ack, we are agreeing again!

    While Web is a long Raid it is not as complex as I would have liked it to be. The instant gratification crowd these days cannot find an hour to commit to a single Quest/Raid. They can find several hours to play for a day, but not for just one adventure, odd, isn't it?

    I like your thought on phases and being able to work those phases on different days.

    Unfortunately we are doomed, IMO, to simpler Raids not beacuse of the tech/coding required to make them, because of the lowest common denominator playerbase and many of the examples you have given as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

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