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  1. #21
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    lulz.

    read the description again. Apology accepted.
    Whoa boy. Now I'm wondering why I took the time to write such a long, polite response to the other post.

    Regardless, thank you for the heads up on the bracers. I didn't expect the description to state something other than the ability on them states. These will undoubtedly be used by me and will up the expected doubleshot to 27% while Killer is not active.

  2. #22
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    First of all, thanks for the input. A lot of great ideas in the post.

    Lots of awesome stuff.
    Big points:

    I have had (played through 25-28) 3 Shiradi Builds and 4 Fury Builds. None of this is theory crafting. My only theory crafted build is the SA build.

    Fury is everything you think it is and more, It's VERY hard for the very best Monkchers on Khyber to beat my kills counts on any difficulty. My current build is a hybrid that uses 10k and Shuri's on Manyshot cooldown, which I use Pinion for. It's THE highest ranged DPS, I'm almost sure.

    RE: T5 Mech - That 10% is 100% of the time. SA, even if it's 80-90% of the time because of Sniper Shot (which is amazing and part of all of my builds) and Imp Deception, and Vorpal in SD, it's still not 100%. So you can't compare that SA damage apples to apples, it's just not realistic.

    And actually, all of the stances work with Shuriken, I paralyze and force arrow and Elemental Damage all the time on my Shuriken. Unless those are just random procs since I exclusively use lvl 24 Spelltouched Shuri's which are impossible to tell whats going with. The 6-8 Numbers I get on a regular Shuriken incresaes to 8-10 when I have AA stances up, unless I'm totally imagining things.

    The Fury builds are VERY similar to Monkchers. The difference is that with the right DS build, and with SA, you might be able to have something different, that's almost as good. Manyshot/Adrenaline/Slayer is still TOP DPS. The reason my shuri build pulls ahead is the other 1:40 Monkchers don't have Manyshot, my 10k is better than their 10k.

    The 40% Doubelshot estimate is easy to come by:

    Calculate your chance of 1 extra projectile with 10k. With 38 Wisdom it's about 72%, and the the 3rd projectile is about 12%. Split those percentages in half since you have it up 50% of the time and voila, around 40% Doublestrike to equal.

    I've been wracking my brain on how to do the best version of a DS maxxed Fury thrower, and I think you're coming close. However, I would go the Elf route for 10% from AA (and unique +2 Dex) along with slayer arrows, but I like your split for a lot of SA damage. I would hve 80% of your SA, but close to 100% of the Adreanaline/Slayer damage of Fury. Yummy. And no Ki needed, Wind stance, 60-something dex. That is my next project. I need 1 more rogue PL anyway (3 Monk, 2 Ranger, 2 Rogue currently). I would like to ditch my bow, but the boss DPS of Manyshot/Adren/Slayer is SO hard to leave behind.

    With my current domination of kill counts, I'm starting to think Killer is looking better and better.

    The problem with these builds I find, is that the enhancements are SO hard to plan. The feats (RS, PBS, QD, PS, IPS, ICThrown, and in my case PA, Cleave, GCleave, OC) and Levels are easy (3/6Monk, 6-12Ranger, Whatever else).

    But that's what build forums are for I guess.

  3. #23
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Whoa boy. Now I'm wondering why I took the time to write such a long, polite response to the other post.

    Regardless, thank you for the heads up on the bracers. I didn't expect the description to state something other than the ability on them states. These will undoubtedly be used by me and will up the expected doubleshot to 27% while Killer is not active.
    just joshin man take it easy

  4. #24
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    First of all, thanks for the input. A lot of great ideas in the post.



    Mechanic Damage: In Shadowdancer, the destiny that I'm currently leaning toward, the sneak attack damage will be around 90 per hit once the +2d6 are removed from the other trees if maxing Mechanic. I'm calculating the weapon damage to be just under 50. At 140 damage per hit (90 sneak attack +50 weapon damage) 10% doubleshot means an average of +14 damage per hit.

    Deepwood Damage: +5 from the toggle, +1 from Thrill of the Hunt, +2d6 sneak attack damage (from points available to use in other trees) comes out to +13 per hit. If an average of one stack of Killer is active, something that I don't think is unreasonable, then this means 5% of a little over 150 damage added (140 + the extra 2d6, +5 toggle, +1 Thrill), which is +7.5 more damage per hit, which pulls the damage per hit total up to +20.5. Against Favored Enemies, 5 more damage is gained on top of that. Then there is the increased Archers Focus damage to consider during boss fights (around 10 damage per hit).
    What shuriken do you use?

    10% Doubleshot is 10% more of EVERYTHING not just Base Damage and SA. If you're using Corm Shurikens, that's 4-6 extra procs per throw (2-3 Base, plus Spelltouched basically doubles your number of weapon mods every throw randomly, so another 2-3 mod/procs/throw).

    Also small niggling point: original build has IC Ranged, which should be IC Thrown

  5. #25
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    What shuriken do you use?

    10% Doubleshot is 10% more of EVERYTHING not just Base Damage and SA. If you're using Corm Shurikens, that's 4-6 extra procs per throw (2-3 Base, plus Spelltouched basically doubles your number of weapon mods every throw randomly, so another 2-3 mod/procs/throw).

    Also small niggling point: original build has IC Ranged, which should be IC Thrown
    I don't use a shuriken. I am theorycrafting while collecting past lives. It will be around 2 more weeks before I can start playing this character. Right now I am Quivering Punching my way through the heroic and epic levels for speed. I intend to use Morningstar but have a stack of Eveningstar ingredients that I can turn in for lvl 16, 20, and 24 stars on the way.

    That's a good point that Doubleshot affects proc damage as well and that sneak attack isn't guaranteed on each hit. I should have factored that into my estimations. Still not sure I wouldn't prefer Deepwood, especially since you can doubleshot along with extra base damage. Like you pointed out, it sounds like you might do enough killing right now to benefit from Killer.

  6. #26
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I don't use a shuriken. I am theorycrafting while collecting past lives. It will be around 2 more weeks before I can start playing this character. Right now I am Quivering Punching my way through the heroic and epic levels for speed. I intend to use Morningstar but have a stack of Eveningstar ingredients that I can turn in for lvl 16, 20, and 24 stars on the way.

    That's a good point that Doubleshot affects proc damage as well and that sneak attack isn't guaranteed on each hit. I should have factored that into my estimations. Still not sure I wouldn't prefer Deepwood, especially since you can doubleshot along with extra base damage. Like you pointed out, it sounds like you might do enough killing right now to benefit from Killer.
    OH. For some reason I thought you were already playing this character. Well, let me know how it goes. Honestly, Morningstar can't hold a candle to a good Cormyrian Spelltouched. Do you understand how they work? If you don't, you're in for a surprise (a good one).

    I find this build starts to work for using Shurikens once you have IPS, QD, and Rapid Shot, but that was with 10K stars. Even without it, you might still find yourself able to range competently in the last third of Heroic levels. I was shocked on several lives how strong it was with Cannith Crafted +5HB of Bleed/PG throwing shurikens. Last life I have a lvl 16 Cormyrian and it was night and day. Put on a frozen tunic, GG, and offhand a Kama/SS with the highest level of deception you can get at level. If you get tired of QP.

  7. #27
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    And actually, all of the stances work with Shuriken, I paralyze and force arrow and Elemental Damage all the time on my Shuriken. Unless those are just random procs since I exclusively use lvl 24 Spelltouched Shuri's which are impossible to tell whats going with. The 6-8 Numbers I get on a regular Shuriken incresaes to 8-10 when I have AA stances up, unless I'm totally imagining things.
    Just did some more testing. I'm getting very inconsistent results with the stances. Sometimes when I enter an explorer area, I lose one of them (force) and can't bring it back. Other times, when I toggle one off, it stays up and active for the entire log in. Sometimes when one gets lost I am able to equip a bow, engage the stance again, and switch to shuriken and it stays on. Other times this doesn't work. I don't really understand what is going on with the stances when it comes to shurikens, but I would say they can be finessed to stay on more often than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    I've been wracking my brain on how to do the best version of a DS maxxed Fury thrower, and I think you're coming close. However, I would go the Elf route for 10% from AA (and unique +2 Dex) along with slayer arrows, but I like your split for a lot of SA damage. I would hve 80% of your SA, but close to 100% of the Adreanaline/Slayer damage of Fury. Yummy. And no Ki needed, Wind stance, 60-something dex. That is my next project. I need 1 more rogue PL anyway (3 Monk, 2 Ranger, 2 Rogue currently). I would like to ditch my bow, but the boss DPS of Manyshot/Adren/Slayer is SO hard to leave behind.
    The Elf AA idea is interesting. The slayer arrows and doubleshot would mean a lot of damage.

    I do not believe that the estimate of doing 80% of the sneak attack damage of this build is accurate. If you are spending the 42 points necessary to get the AA abilities you want in that tree, 12 in Deepwood (3d6 from there), and a minimum of 16 in Elf for the 2 points of Dex and access to the AA tree (16 if the 3% doubleshot at tier 4 is not obtained), that leaves 10 left over to spend on sneak attack damage in other trees, which yields an additional 3d6.

    So if you go with the same split, 11 Rogue/3 monk/6 Ranger, you are getting a total of 12d6 sneak attack damage (6d6 from Rogue levels, 3d6 from Deepwood, 2d6 from Ninja, 1d6 from Assassin, for an average of +42) + 5 exceptional sneak attack from gear and +8 from gear, you are looking at an average of 55 sneak attack damage per hit (42 + 5 + 8, which is great). That's if you are willing to ignore the tier 4 Elf doubleshot ability.

    This build, played in my preferred destiny, Shadowdancer, is 23d6 (80.5) +8 from gear, +5 exceptional for an average of 93.5 sneak attack damage per hit. So your build is a smidge under 60% of the sneak attack damage of this one. I have no doubt that a Fury shot version would pull ahead in damage with Adrenalized Slaying stars, however.

  8. #28
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    OH. For some reason I thought you were already playing this character. Well, let me know how it goes. Honestly, Morningstar can't hold a candle to a good Cormyrian Spelltouched. Do you understand how they work? If you don't, you're in for a surprise (a good one).
    From what I understood a while back, they add some extra procs, usually 1 to 2d6 elemental damage each. I had toyed around with them when they came out. Do they operate differently than I understand?

    Could you post a specific numerical comparison between Morningstar and a good Cormyrian star? I would find the information useful.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 12-20-2013 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #29
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    I will add Fury to the list of recommended EDs in the original post. At about 50% of the effectiveness of adrenalized slaying stars, adrenalyzed sniper shot is still a great option.

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Also small niggling point: original build has IC Ranged, which should be IC Thrown
    Fixed in the write-up. It's going to be too much trouble to correct it in the planner.

  10. #30
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    From what I understood a while back, they add some extra procs, usually 1 to 2d6 elemental damage each. I had toyed around with them when they came out. Do they operate differently than I understand?

    Could you post a specific numerical comparison between Morningstar and a good Cormyrian star? I would find the information useful.
    The biggest benefit to Morning Star I see is strictly for incorporeal, since it avoids the miss chance. I monkeyed a bit with a challenge option on the last life, just to watch (not a thrower build, but just to see).
    The challenge shuriken can proc a lot of crazy stuff. It isn't just damage - and you have to think of them almost as mini-shiradi effects. Even something with a low save, most mobs will still fail on a 1 - and you put out a ton of chances.

    For my offhand so far this life in heroic I'm using a seeker 8 kama of (old) deception in the off hand, having sneak on goggles currently. I figure i'll swap that as this toon doesn't have Tharnes in the tweens. 12 will be big for him as I have a tunic and a few GS shuriken waiting.

    I'm curious on the manyshot swap - and maybe I'll re-arrange levels a bit to pick that up. This guy was a manyshot archer both previous lives, so he's got a fair selection of bows as well.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  11. #31
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    From what I understood a while back, they add some extra procs, usually 1 to 2d6 elemental damage each. I had toyed around with them when they came out. Do they operate differently than I understand?

    Could you post a specific numerical comparison between Morningstar and a good Cormyrian star? I would find the information useful.
    So my understanding of Spellplague, and I'm 90% sure this is true based on 2 months of EXTENSIVE play testing, is this:

    With a given Corm Thrower, there are 4 (for lvl24) Mods on the item. Usually 2-3 damage types, and then some sort of metal type. If you really have a lot of mats, you can basically get an all damage type, but it' hard. My best ones are a:
    -Greater Good
    -Imp Destruction
    -Fracturing
    -Lightning Strike

    or
    Parrying VII (I think, +4 to saves)
    Life Stealing
    Brilliance
    Disintegration (I think, I can't login right now)

    I have other utility ones like an addy one with disint and acid, and an aligned one for Maruts.

    THe point is however every time you throw a Spellplague thrower, what happens is that PER throw animation, that thrower leaves your hand as it's stated self (eg one of the examples above) HOWEVER. And this is the important part: it also leaves with an ADDITIONAL set of mods, which are randomly generated then thrown out EVERY THROW. Remember when you put a Stone Heart on an Arty Pet and it got double stats? That was basically the mechanic bleeding over into an armor piece it wasn't supposed to. The stat was the only Random Gen attribute on the Stone Heart, so that was the only part doubled.

    On Corm Shuriken, it's intentional, and an extra mod is generated on every shuriken for each random gen mod on the shuriken to begin with. It doesn't always gen damage. Sometimes is Imp Paralyzing, sometimes I get Life Stealing on my NON-lifestealing Shuriken because of this (actually pretty frequently). Sometimes I break DR on Shuriken on certain mobs when I forget to switch (because it Spellplagues Cold Iron or Adamantine or whatever) for a couple throws.

    Basically, it's like a mini version of Double Rainbow on a shuriken. When you have that on top of Colors of the Queen (I have 2x EPL) it's pretty funny to watch stuff just vanish and turn to stone and turn into Deer and God knows what else. It's even more random in Shiradi which is awesome, but frankly lackluster DPS for EE, and way too inconsistent.

    PS: THe only part of this I'm a little shaky about is if ALL of the mods get a duplicate per throw, or if it's just 1 or 2 of them. If you assume 90% of the time its a metal type, and a low percentage high damage proc like Magma Surge/Disint/Lightning Strike (along with 2 actual damage types like Boreal and Brilliance, for instance) that would explain why people have erroneously assumed it just adds a random 2d6 damage type. Those things don't proc that much. But I get Magma and Lightning Strikes (And life stealing) frequently on Shuriken that don't have those qualities. That's how I know it's not simply just a random 2d6 damage type each throw. It's much, much more than that.

  12. #32
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    The biggest benefit to Morning Star I see is strictly for incorporeal, since it avoids the miss chance. I monkeyed a bit with a challenge option on the last life, just to watch (not a thrower build, but just to see).
    The challenge shuriken can proc a lot of crazy stuff. It isn't just damage - and you have to think of them almost as mini-shiradi effects. Even something with a low save, most mobs will still fail on a 1 - and you put out a ton of chances.

    For my offhand so far this life in heroic I'm using a seeker 8 kama of (old) deception in the off hand, having sneak on goggles currently. I figure i'll swap that as this toon doesn't have Tharnes in the tweens. 12 will be big for him as I have a tunic and a few GS shuriken waiting.

    I'm curious on the manyshot swap - and maybe I'll re-arrange levels a bit to pick that up. This guy was a manyshot archer both previous lives, so he's got a fair selection of bows as well.
    All my shuriken throwers are Elf for synergy with dex to damage, and for a few AP ploints you can get Fey Sight, which negates Incorp and Concealment, I believe. The description is odd but I never get the misses associated with those. I do rotate in Dispelling shot frequently on blurred/displaced mobs however in order to bring up overall party DPS since lots of people dont say when they dont have TS slotted.

  13. #33
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys. I'll start turning in those ingredients and grab a few of the Cormyrian stars. Jak - you should do a write up of the Elf AA tree furyshot sneak attack thrower. It has a lot going for it.

  14. #34
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Uneven on Dex is not a consideration for this build. Every SINGLE dex point is 2% chance for Extra proc (1% for SE, and 1% for Ninja Master).

    Do not worry about odd numbers, do get as much dex as you can.

    BLinding Speed in my mind is a MUST on any ranged build. Haste and BS give a 22% boost to ranged attack speed. The only other thing that comes close is Pinion/Needle. Not Jorgs Collar, not Speed XV, nothing. Just haste, and that feat. Unless you have 100% all the time, you are losing significant DPS without BS, even with T4 Wind Stance.
    I know pretty well that even uneven numbers add to the chance to proc another shuriken. That's why i said "ESPECIALLY if you end up on an uneven DEX stat" because in that case you will also get another +1 damage and all the other benefits that a +1 DEX modifier gives you.

    As for how the spelltouched effect functions it has already been confirmed by Feather of Sun almost a year ago how it works. It adds a complete additional set of effects almost as if you would throw two cormyrian shuriken per attack:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post4874635

    Also the DDOWiki has a reference of a test of the spelltouched effect:

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Spellplague

    A very useful effect is also Improved Paralyzing as a static effect on a spelltouched shuriken since even on EE it has a 5% chance to proc which is a lot when you have such a high attack speed.
    Last edited by Firewall; 12-21-2013 at 01:24 AM.

  15. #35
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    Hold on, AA toggles work with stars?

    Do they ALL work with stars or just a select few? This definitely makes things interesting for my build if so.

  16. #36
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Thanks for the info guys. I'll start turning in those ingredients and grab a few of the Cormyrian stars. Jak - you should do a write up of the Elf AA tree furyshot sneak attack thrower. It has a lot going for it.
    not until I get bored with it...Turbine swings it's nerf bat too hard.

    But you basically have the gist of it. It's not so different from a Shuricannon or your build, just fit the ranged feats, and the OC feats (PA, Cleave, GCleave, OC) for MAX CRITSZ!@1 (and at least T3 Stances).

    I haven't done a SA build yet but when I do, at the very least I'll PM you

  17. #37
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    And actually, all of the stances work with Shuriken, I paralyze and force arrow and Elemental Damage all the time on my Shuriken. Unless those are just random procs since I exclusively use lvl 24 Spelltouched Shuri's which are impossible to tell whats going with. The 6-8 Numbers I get on a regular Shuriken incresaes to 8-10 when I have AA stances up, unless I'm totally imagining things.
    I just tried to use elemental arrows with a throwing weapon. Didn't work. True shot did though... so, I have no idea what will or won't work in the AA tree lol

  18. #38
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    I just tried to use elemental arrows with a throwing weapon. Didn't work. True shot did though... so, I have no idea what will or won't work in the AA tree lol
    No comment

  19. #39
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    not until I get bored with it...Turbine swings it's nerf bat too hard.
    If they were going to nerf adrenalized multishot slaying projectiles, they would have done it by now. This sort of ability isn't exactly new to DDO.

  20. #40
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    If they were going to nerf adrenalized multishot slaying projectiles, they would have done it by now. This sort of ability isn't exactly new to DDO.
    This is a fair point. I guess ill do it I just won't be playing much over holidays with 2 weddings, nye and Christmas in the next 2 weeks.

    FRAPS still what people like to use?

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