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  1. #1
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    Default What class combos make the best archetypes?

    I was sitting here ruminating (yea, I said it), on the different kinds of characters I want to build on my way to completionist, and I realized that I didn't have enough informed opinion to really make good decisions.

    I've got 4 classes under my belt so far (yea, I'm slow) - Cleric, Fvs, Paladin, and Arty, and I'm on 17th level of my Monk life. Upon hitting 20, I intend to TR as I did last life. Epics don't really interest me. My goal is, and has been, completionist, regardless of how ridiculously long it might take me.

    To that end, I was taking stock of the 8 classes I still need, and it occurred to me that I have different ideas about what kinds of characters I still want to make, but I had no idea which class combos produced the best result.

    For example, I wrote down this list:

    sneaky
    pure destruction
    archer
    CC
    crucible swimmer
    khopesh TWF death machine
    palemaster
    druid caster

    So, some of these are easy. Right, a Palemaster is a wizard, maybe with 2 rogue levels, but mostly wizard. Pure destruction is just a sorcerer build, either ice or earth, I'm thinking. I don't honestly know much about druids, and the class does not terribly interest me. The last druid idea I had didn't really work out on paper, so I tabled it. I've learned that druids make good casters, otherwise they are a bit lackluster. So, when I play a druid, I'll probably go pure spellcaster. That still leaves:

    sneaky, archer, CC, crucible swimmer and khopesh TWF build.

    Next to sneaky, I put Rogue. But most people hate pure rogue builds. So, I could splash a little bit of other stuff, but no idea what.
    Next to archer I have ranger AA, but I realize there are probably MANY ways to skin that cat. Kensai fighter, elven AA, ranger AA, ranger DWS. I've no idea what makes an awesome archer.
    Next to CC I put bard, since I need a bard life somewhere. I've already played a bard and an enchanter archmage on my other main character, and I tend to believe that enchanter archmage > bard in terms of CC, but I'm willing to overlook that for the purposes of getting a bard life. I've also done bardbarian which I found to be rather lackluster, overall.
    crucible swimmer sounds like a ridiculous concept, but it's a goal I have. And in satisfying my barbarian requirement, I've decided on some sort of rogue/barbarian build here, with mostly barbarian levels to satisfy the PL. Obviously, swim ranks, lots of hit points, evasion, high saves. Decent DPS.
    khopesh TWF build I have ftr, with probably some rgr tempest splash, and kensai. Sounds feasible enough.

    What have I overlooked here? What class combos would you use to produce those archetypes?

    Help!?
    Cannith:
    Brigette; Completionist! || Aoeryn; Wiz20(3rd life).

  2. #2
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    Druid Caster is very easy, at least. You'll want to stay pure. Don't multiclass, not even for evasion.

    Max Wis and Con, put extra points into INT for more skill points or maybe STR for more carry weight. Then again if you have tomes, you don't need that extra STR, you can carry plenty.

    Get maximize, empower, and take advantage of all those SLAs you'll have at your disposal. You'll be 1-shotting just about all of the trash for 6-10 SP.

    You may not seem interested now, but it's actually a pretty nice class.

  3. #3
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    What class combos would you use to produce those archetypes?
    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    Next to sneaky, I put Rogue. But most people hate pure rogue builds. So, I could splash a little bit of other stuff, but no idea what.
    Only good mix for Sneaky Rogue I can think of is Monk and/or maybe a light (2 level) Fighter splash for more feats. That said, unlike most people I loved my pure Rogue - probably because I have the patients to sneak and assassinate my through a quest in leu of power zerging. True stealth may be slower, but I found it to be a litteral "nice change of pace." See also my comments below about the Crucible Swimmer.
    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    Next to archer I have ranger AA, but I realize there are probably MANY ways to skin that cat. Kensai fighter, elven AA, ranger AA, ranger DWS. I've no idea what makes an awesome archer.
    The uber-duber archer is the 6/6/6 Ranger/Monk/Fighter, with the last 2 being of whatever past life you currently need. It's worth noting this base works well for both Archer & TWF Khopesh, and can provide both the Ranger & Fighter pastlives.
    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    Next to CC I put bard, since I need a bard life somewhere. I've already played a bard and an enchanter archmage on my other main character, and I tend to believe that enchanter archmage > bard in terms of CC, but I'm willing to overlook that for the purposes of getting a bard life. I've also done bardbarian which I found to be rather lackluster, overall.
    Yup, with Wiz allocated to Pale Master, this is your Enchanter - built for CC, Bards rule at it in heroics.
    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    crucible swimmer sounds like a ridiculous concept, but it's a goal I have. And in satisfying my barbarian requirement, I've decided on some sort of rogue/barbarian build here, with mostly barbarian levels to satisfy the PL. Obviously, swim ranks, lots of hit points, evasion, high saves. Decent DPS.
    Crucible swimmer as a design focus is, umm... Yaeh... How about blend that with your sneaky Rogue? Improved evasion paired with a high dex/reflex saves will fit the bill much more nicely than a barb with (I'm guessing) a so-so dex/reflex saves and (not improved) evasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    Khopesh TWF build I have ftr, with probably some rgr tempest splash, and kensai. Sounds feasible enough.
    See above under Archer. Alternatively, can blend fighter & barb for Raging TWF Khopesh nastiness and a Barb PL.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    If you want to re-use / leverage gear - Rogue / Artificer / Ranger all mix very well for high-reflex repeater abuse.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #5
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    18 rog, 1 ftr, 1 monk. And let the barehanded bottom beating begin!
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  6. #6
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    Yea, I never said crucible swimmer wasn't ridiculous.

    I'm busy at work, so I'll try to formulate some more involved questions, later, but on the archer -

    what PrC do you shoot for? 6/6/6 - is that Kensai / Ranger AA, and monk?? I'm trying to wrap my head around what monk is bringing to the table here.
    Cannith:
    Brigette; Completionist! || Aoeryn; Wiz20(3rd life).

  7. #7
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    Yea, I never said crucible swimmer wasn't ridiculous.

    I'm busy at work, so I'll try to formulate some more involved questions, later, but on the archer -

    what PrC do you shoot for? 6/6/6 - is that Kensai / Ranger AA, and monk?? I'm trying to wrap my head around what monk is bringing to the table here.
    10k stars. Trust me, in heroic, having 2 types of multi-shot is too good. Also... stances.
    10k stars and Master stances are now feats. Fighter and monk also get you feats, stances, imp evasion, etc.
    Don't know what else fighter brings, I'm guessing the enhancements.
    Toons on Orien:
    Daemonav Atreides: WF artificer (TR 2/14)////Irullan Atreides: human FvS (TR 2/?!?)////Lorrellei Atreides: human ice/acid sorcerer////Aliademon Atreides: elf PM necro/enchant wizzie (TR 2/8)

  8. #8
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Rogues? Never. Play a Shadow Mage, it's 1000 times better in everything.
    Now you can have Archmage and Pale Master at the time to open levers with Skeleton Knight so it got even better at sneaking.

  9. #9
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    what PrC do you shoot for? 6/6/6 - is that Kensai / Ranger AA, and monk?? I'm trying to wrap my head around what monk is bringing to the table here.
    The beauty of the 6/6/6 is flexibility. Ranger 6 autogrants a ridiculous array of feats, Fighter 6 offers 4 more feats and Monk 6 = 3 more + evasion. Kensai enhancements allow you to center with any weapon you want. Alternatively, if pajamas aren't your thing, you can swap the Monk for Rogue and retain evasion while picking up trap skills, some sneak attack dice and some interesting enhancements; if you want a heavier armored melee swap the Monk for Barb and get Rage + dps enhancements. In all cases, just add 2 levels of the desired past life.

    •For the archer you can take a mix of AA/Sniper, and toss in Kensai + other enhancements for survivability and flavor.

    •For the TWF Khopesh build there's Tempest, Kensai and whatever else looks tasty.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  10. #10
    Community Member ThomasHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Kensai enhancements allow you to center with any weapon you want.
    I think this is only true with 8 levels of Fighter as you need Greater Weapon Focus to get to the top of the Kensai tree for centering any weapons.

  11. #11
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasHunter View Post
    I think this is only true with 8 levels of Fighter as you need Greater Weapon Focus to get to the top of the Kensai tree for centering any weapons.
    Doh! Good catch, thanx I've been doing too many Caster lives lately and it seems I forgot this particular detail...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  12. #12
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The beauty of the 6/6/6 is flexibility. Ranger 6 autogrants a ridiculous array of feats, Fighter 6 offers 4 more feats and Monk 6 = 3 more + evasion. Kensai enhancements allow you to center with any weapon you want. Alternatively, if pajamas aren't your thing, you can swap the Monk for Rogue and retain evasion while picking up trap skills, some sneak attack dice and some interesting enhancements; if you want a heavier armored melee swap the Monk for Barb and get Rage + dps enhancements. In all cases, just add 2 levels of the desired past life.

    •For the archer you can take a mix of AA/Sniper, and toss in Kensai + other enhancements for survivability and flavor.

    •For the TWF Khopesh build there's Tempest, Kensai and whatever else looks tasty.
    Not sure how it is with the centerness, but I know the keen edge expanded crit range requires a feat that requires lv 8 fighter to take. So you know just before someone uses a +20 and goes.. wha.. hey...***!!!!
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    Not sure how it is with the centerness, but I know the keen edge expanded crit range requires a feat that requires lv 8 fighter to take. So you know just before someone uses a +20 and goes.. wha.. hey...***!!!!
    Yeah, as ThomasHunter pointed out already, I had forgotten that One With the Blade (centering with any weapon) has Keen Edge as a prerequisite, which in turn has the prerequ of Greater Weapon Focus feat that requires 8 levels of Fighter.

    So centering with (any weapon*) during the course of gaining a Past Life will require 8 fighter, so doing it as part of the 6/6/6 mold would mandate it's your Fighter past life. As for using a +20... hopefully anyone looking to craft an epic toon won't look for advice in a thread asking about crafting characters just to reach 20 and get a Past Life

    *any weapon other than Monk weapons or short swords.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

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