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  1. #41
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
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    No.

  2. #42
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esmarelda View Post
    How many remember the release of Everquest back in the 90's? Back then your options were UO which was plagued with PK griefers or the new game which was party-oriented, no pvp, and established a world of PvE where death was painful. Loss of experience, possible loss of level, and loss of your body if you cannot get back to it, including all items on it.

    Those were the glory days of MMO's as far as I'm concerned. Getting 60-70 people to jump into the Plane of Fear not knowing if the people who jumped in before you were slaughtered or managed to make it to the 'safe spot'. Solo'ing was virtually non-existent save for a few classes who could manage it, Necromancer being the king soloer. If you were a tank-class, you had to find a group or your day was spent in town or waiting at zone edges hoping to find a group.

    That game gave years of fun, pain, heart-stopping action when going deep into a dungeon knowing a train could wipe out the whole place .
    Yeap, I continued to XP in kedge keep when most people moved to Kunark, because I knew my LFMs would fill with folks who werent afraid to lose a corpse full of gear in what was basically an underwater version of coal chamber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esmarelda View Post
    Then comes World of Warcraft....solo-friendly, grouping required for dungeons, but you didn't need a group to solo all the way to 60. Death cost money, but no experience or loss of items. People started flocking to this new playstyle because it was more casual-friendly, and only hardcore players stayed with EQ. Now jump ahead 9 years and we have a plethora of MMO's out there with new ones coming along monthly. Do any of these new ones cater only to hardcore people who want extreme challenges? I haven't seen any. Most of us hardcore players now have more responsibilities besides skipping class just to keep farming those Journeyman boots or the Flowing Black Silk Sash. Casual MMO's have made their place in the market and they are going to stay that way...
    leveling in WOW is solo friendly and mind numbingly boring. Endgame is more complex than anything DDO offers however.

    BTW, EQ still has more subs than DDO, today. THey are still doing something right, even if the majority of casuals attrited. That ship still floats, even after 15 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esmarelda View Post
    Are there more hardcore players now than casual? No. Most hardcore players demand a solid end-game with 500 raids and extreme challenges. WoW figured out that most players did not meet the end-game requirements of raiding and tuned down their raids to actually make them casual-friendly rather than requiring people to dedicate 4 nights a week from 7-11 to keep a spot on the raid roster..
    Not really. What WOW did was instance the raids to eliminated contested world boss spawns where the uberguilds always win the battle, and keeping the loot out of the hands of the second tier guilds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esmarelda View Post
    Yes, I'm rambling. Because people who play DDO aren't all elitists who think the game is too easy. There are 2 new raids planned for next year and from what I could understand, one is going to be multi-tier with multiple bosses. Not like the Shroud with 1 boss and 5 areas to rush through, but each boss will be it's own raid from my understanding. Maybe that is incorrect but I look forward to the future of DDO, not watching it die off like so many apparently want because they can't have their e-peen gleaming that they farmed X raid for that item.
    I look forward to the future of it too, with more content, which is what will decide the outcome of that future.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The grind didnt kill anything. Lack of content did. That grind is what kept people playing. Now days theres a huge spike in population when significant content updates happen and then a decline a few weeks later.

    This game did not have 1/4th the grind of other MMOs, even in its most grindy eras. If youre calling this game a grind game, even in 2009, you didnt do any comparison to any other MMOs.

    The best way to handle this situation, is instead of having specific loot only drop in specific places, make epic crafting more generic. If I could run any epic raid and get ingredients for any epic item, thei would make all raids get run. If the ingredients are more generic and applicable to all items, then raiding = progress, rather than an all or nothing affair. This is what made shroud an awesome raid which lasted a long time at endgame. If I wanted an epic torc and I could get ingredients for making it out of any epic raid in the game, Id run them all regularly. People dont mind grinding, but grinding the same 2 quests over and over again is far worse than making it worth grinding all content, and making the progress gained from grinding all content apply to making any desired item.

    I didn't say the grind killed anything , what I said was the exact opposite , reducing the grind reduced the time that's spent in quests leaving you with nothing to do end game wise till new updates which is what we have now outside of the new ETR .

    What I said the bs was , Is that the grind was the only thing the old end game consisted of regardless of other games it can be compared too .

    So when I stated it was bs , It meant I thought staying capped only to acquire new loot and no form of char progression was bs , Even though I liked it it was bs !!!

  4. #44
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    No, because I only started playing a year ago and I like the game as it is. The stuff that feels new to you has always been that way for me.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I would love to see a hardcore server.

    - No AH or pawn vendors
    - No trading or mailing anything
    - No shared bank or passing anything between toons
    - No twinking of any kind, can't use any gear from a previous life until you reach cap again
    - No plat handydowns
    - On Heroics, Elite difficulty only
    - On Epics, Epic Hard and Epic Elite only

    Basically you could only use what you find and that's it. If you TR you can't use gear from a previous life at all until you reach cap again.

    And yes obviously I could impose these restrictions on myself now but it would be so much better if you had a server full of people doing the same thing.


    As far as a retro server, no. I'm not for it. I loved the pre MOTU days but I wouldn't want to go back. Some things have changed for the worse but overall the game is better today.

    You say hardcore server !!! But you would leave an Epic Hard option ??? Lmao

    Since when is Eh hardcore ?

  6. #46
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    I didn't say the grind killed anything , what I said was the exact opposite , reducing the grind reduced the time that's spent in quests leaving you with nothing to do end game wise till new updates which is what we have now outside of the new ETR .

    What I said the bs was , Is that the grind was the only thing the old end game consisted of regardless of other games it can be compared too .

    So when I stated it was bs , It meant I thought staying capped only to acquire new loot and no form of char progression was bs , Even though I liked it it was bs !!!
    But thats what there is to do at endgame, unless they make more content, which is what usually makes or breaks the game for endgamers. Turbine used to develop content at a rate that was fast enough to cater to that crowd. If they go back and study that model and attempt to mimic it to the best of their ability nowdays, it will be better off for all users, because not only were more raids made in those eras, more quests were too.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    You say hardcore server !!! But you would leave an Epic Hard option ??? Lmao

    Since when is Eh hardcore ?
    I left it in there because EE is likely not feasible when you are level 20 with no destinies and no twinking. Just being realistic. But after you get those destinies it will be easy so I see your point.

  8. #48
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    You say hardcore server !!! But you would leave an Epic Hard option ??? Lmao

    Since when is Eh hardcore ?
    With no way to buy unlimited amounts of consumibles it could be somewhat challenging. We take alot of stuff for granted because we can buy unlimited consumible items to surpass content easily. Not having that stuff would make it alot harder.

    Take for instance the following:

    The only builds that have lesser restore, restore, and greater restore are those that can cast it.
    The only builds that have haste are those that can cast it.
    The only builds that have cure and heal spells are those that can cast it.
    The only builds that have remove curse, disease, blindness are those that can cast it.

    More builds become legit too - like 7 bard splits, 5 wizard splits and such due to buffs being sought after rather than most being something we can get on an item.

    People running around with stacks of 100 of every spell they need has limited the optimal builds to getting stuff that cant be had on a consumible or clicky.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-18-2013 at 11:26 AM.

  9. #49
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    LOL!

    I would jump onto a hardcore server. Not retro, but something with more pain.
    Spells that are permanent are permanent (curse, blindness, etc).
    Stat damage being damage, not a timed debuff.
    Death taking some xp and delevelling you if you went too low.
    One shrine, one use, per quest (to help simulate a daily rest).

    There could be some AI changes as well, but those three above would keep people challenge happy for a while.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    LOL!
    I love that screen shot. Awesome graphics. I used to play the UNIX version of Moria. The @ sign in the image below is your char. The "k" is a kobold and the $ is loot. An ancient red dragon was a "D"



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_%28video_game%29

    DDO is freaking awesome a million times over in comparison to games of the past.
    Last edited by Livmo; 12-18-2013 at 12:06 PM. Reason: The + sign in the screen shot is an unopened door.

  11. #51
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The grind didnt kill anything. Lack of content did. That grind is what kept people playing. Now days theres a huge spike in population when significant content updates happen and then a decline a few weeks later.

    This game did not have 1/4th the grind of other MMOs, even in its most grindy eras. If youre calling this game a grind game, even in 2009, you didnt do any comparison to any other MMOs.

    The best way to handle this situation, is instead of having specific loot only drop in specific places, make epic crafting more generic. If I could run any epic raid and get ingredients for any epic item, thei would make all raids get run. If the ingredients are more generic and applicable to all items, then raiding = progress, rather than an all or nothing affair. This is what made shroud an awesome raid which lasted a long time at endgame. If I wanted an epic torc and I could get ingredients for making it out of any epic raid in the game, Id run them all regularly. People dont mind grinding, but grinding the same 2 quests over and over again is far worse than making it worth grinding all content, and making the progress gained from grinding all content apply to making any desired item.
    If people don't mind grinding, then explain why they are so unhappy about the amount of grind to get an epic heart. Many of the players complaining about epic comms date back to this 'golden age' of shard seal scroll.

  12. #52
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    I'd be all for an Underdark server

  13. #53
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If people don't mind grinding, then explain why they are so unhappy about the amount of grind to get an epic heart. Many of the players complaining about epic comms date back to this 'golden age' of shard seal scroll.
    They are willing to grind when that grind synergizes with playing the game the way they want to play it. Getting Xp/loot/coms at the same time playing how I want to play is fun. Being forced to still grind for coms after all xp/loot has been accomplished is boring. Being forced to do so in a few higher end quests because they give the highest com rewards constricts the quantity of grindable content, which makes it even more repetitive and boring, especially as it forces players who dont normally like playing that content to do so, or take much longer grinding the heart when they just want to TR.

  14. #54
    Community Member deuxanes's Avatar
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    It would indeed be interesting to go back to a certain time and see how DDO was back then. I for one would like to see DDO how it was after release. But to be honest I don't know if I would play it for long. Another prerequisite would be that there were other players too.

    I replay older CRPGs from time to time. But you can't expect a company to spread its resources to such pet projects as classic servers (unless the boss(es) of course would support such an idea). I doubt even that much resources would go towards a "hardcore" server, especially since players can restrict themselves artificially and whithout the need to change the game mechanics.
    Brace yourselves
    Pints are coming!

  15. #55
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    They are willing to grind when that grind synergizes with playing the game the way they want to play it. Getting Xp/loot/coms at the same time playing how I want to play is fun. Being forced to still grind for coms after all xp/loot has been accomplished is boring. Being forced to do so in a few higher end quests because they give the highest com rewards constricts the quantity of grindable content, which makes it even more boring, especially and it forces players who dont normally like playing that content to do so, or take much longer grinding the heart when they just want to TR.
    Most of the people who miss the olden days talk about the raids. What were there, maybe 7 of them that people ran? That sounds like a pretty danged small amount of content to keep repeating endlessly. At least with the comm grind you have the choice to run any epic content. Nobody is forcing you to only run the content that gives the maximum possible com per minute.

    Also, since the endgame back then took place at level cap, your character was completely stagnant. You didn't get any xp, had nothing to level up. Just loot to grind. For what, i'm not sure. In most cases, a loot grind requires you to repeat endlessly a single quest. No way that doesn't get old.

    People who talk about the good old days tend to not realize that often the changes which cause them to be dissatisfied have been in themselves and not the environment. People get older and they get more cynical. Stuff stops surprising them, and every new thing just seems like a variation on an old thing. It's natural.

    Wisdom ain't always all it's cracked up to be.

  16. #56
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    While some of us can remember some of the good times we have had at different time periods of the game, have a static game just feels like it is finite.

    Part of what has kept me playing is new content and the people. Yes we had a long stretch of no new content and that period did loose people as they had already done it too many times before. Part of the advancements in content required changes to enhancements, spells, feats etc. (Basically existing features of the game) in order to make this new content work.

    While each of us could site a list of changes we didn't think were necessary (Changes to WOPs, TWF, Poison Resistance, immunities etc.) they were done to allow advancement in content (or lag fixes for some [still waiting on some of those fixes to kick in])

    The other difficulty is Retro to Where? When Level Cap was 10 and the Enhancement system was a progression where you could have only 4 extra abilities and if you didn't spend you Action points before you leveled you lost them? Post Gianthold? Pre-Abbot? or Maybe when Shroud was released? Early Epic quests (Level 20)? Again there would be no way to agree on when would be the best time and what ever was chosen would still only be a small segment of the group wanting a retro-server.

    So it is more likely I would not use it.

  17. #57
    Community Member Dendrix's Avatar
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    total waste of time.

    the time to setup and ongoing support required for this are massive.

  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Most of the people who miss the olden days talk about the raids. What were there, maybe 7 of them that people ran? That sounds like a pretty danged small amount of content to keep repeating endlessly. At least with the comm grind you have the choice to run any epic content. Nobody is forcing you to only run the content that gives the maximum possible com per minute.
    No, we are not constrained to talking only about raids. The game was more content focused in those days compared to the quantity of content put out nowdays.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Also, since the endgame back then took place at level cap, your character was completely stagnant. You didn't get any xp, had nothing to level up. Just loot to grind. For what, i'm not sure. In most cases, a loot grind requires you to repeat endlessly a single quest. No way that doesn't get old.
    Gear was character advancement back then. Now when I get to cap Ive got no other advancement other than a ETR hamster wheel which makes me earn back all the XP I already earned.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    People who talk about the good old days tend to not realize that often the changes which cause them to be dissatisfied have been in themselves and not the environment. People get older and they get more cynical. Stuff stops surprising them, and every new thing just seems like a variation on an old thing. It's natural.
    Not this time. This current iteration of "endgame" in no way resembles "endgame" in that era. Its the game that changed. Its the focus of how the game makes its money that has changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Wisdom ain't always all it's cracked up to be.
    Youre trying to limit the arguments that support that era when theres alot more to those eras that are not limited. People dont "just talk about X" - that might have been their favorite thing, but its not the only aspect of the game they enjoyed.

  19. #59
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Pffft! You had graphics - color graphics - in your CRPGs? And you think that makes you "hardcore," son?

    As if!



    Now get offa my lawn, you young whippersnappers!
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
    Other build threads: Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
    My Build Index: a Motley Menagerie of Original Rapscallions, Pugilists, and Gimps!

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I would love to see a hardcore server.

    - No AH or pawn vendors
    - No trading or mailing anything
    - No shared bank or passing anything between toons
    - No twinking of any kind, can't use any gear from a previous life until you reach cap again
    - No plat handydowns
    - On Heroics, Elite difficulty only
    - On Epics, Epic Hard and Epic Elite only

    Basically you could only use what you find and that's it. If you TR you can't use gear from a previous life at all until you reach cap again.

    And yes obviously I could impose these restrictions on myself now but it would be so much better if you had a server full of people doing the same thing.


    As far as a retro server, no. I'm not for it. I loved the pre MOTU days but I wouldn't want to go back. Some things have changed for the worse but overall the game is better today.
    Goggle, you will find Dev already replied to permadeath type server.
    It would cause endless bugs for the rest of the game.

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