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  1. #21

    Default Here's the problem

    I heroic reincarnated to add some ability points. And since I hit 20 (it's now 24) I've taken almost all the Valor each time. Always doing EH. And I banked about 350. The problem is that lower Epic quests gives piddly amounts, even at or under level. It should give the SAME amount as upper end ones. When I'm 20 and doing a level 22 quest it should give the same as when I'm 28 doing a 25 or 26.

    I don't mind if there's a diminishing return if I'm 28 doing a level 22 - that should only give 10 or so, but 12 at EH when I'm one level under quest? It's idiotic - that's what. Just like with off destiny leveling this new valor grind is mind numbing. It's boring since the only rewarding quests are the most boring ones, like the harper, wheloon and stormhorns. They're dreadful. Plus the scaling is off so it's difficult to do EH on those quests (solo) since everything saves anything.

    To put it simply; the design is that most of the 'grinding' will be done in upper end quests and that's terrible since those quests are horrid compared to the wealth of quests below it. By creating such a disparity between the lower epic and upper epic, where it's unrewarding to play anything other then the harper and above, you get in this late run funk where all the fun grinds to a halt. Up until 25, before you start touching all that stuff it's okay - then it gets bad and quickly.

    Worst of all, multiple ETRs don't reset slayer counts and everything else. So eventually a lot of the additional XP you rely on dries up. And you end up grinding the same quests multiple times for not only XP but also piddly amount of Valor.

    And if you're doing that for Karma in a off destiny, well good luck to your sanity.

    I just don't see this system being sustainable in the long run. You can feel the grind and it's painful. 3 terrible system baked into one; valor grinding, karma grinding and off destiny leveling.

  2. #22
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    If I didn't have to worry about off destinies, had the gear for it and had a reliable static group I probably would have the Comms in a decent timeframe too always running high level EE. That's not the norm in the game though and who wants to run the same high level quests week after week? Booorriiiing. For your average player, 4200 is too high right now. For the ~5% of players, they are fine with it.
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    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Personally, I think they ran the numbers on what they needed to bring in and saw this as the only way that would possibly do it. While they may even agree that lower comms was likely to lead to more income, if that income wasn't enough to meet expectations, they may have chosen to follow the route that was unlikely but at least possible.

    After all, a 100 to 1 chance to succeed is better than a sure thing to fail.
    I agree that what you say in entirely plausible. And not unlike Turbine. They just left out a huge portion of the equation: the human factor.

    Most of us aren't robots (I wonder about some). Turbine likes to do things that seem to look good on paper. Unfortunately things on paper don't always translate well into the real world. Between their implementation, our interpretation and the actual results so many things can go awry. Their perceived inability to want to adjust the numbers shows they have a hard time adapting or a hard time letting go of ideas.

    Most of us are willing to put the time in if they work with us. And they have shown some thinly veiled attempts at wanting to with this ER stuff, they aren't quite there yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    If I didn't have to worry about off destinies, had the gear for it and had a reliable static group I probably would have the Comms in a decent timeframe too always running high level EE. That's not the norm in the game though and who wants to run the same high level quests week after week? Booorriiiing. For your average player, 4200 is too high right now. For the ~5% of players, they are fine with it.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Takes me about a week to collect 4200 as well.
    This is crazy to me. And its unrealistic for most players. And it sounds like a huge chore, not fun at all.

    I play anywhere from 1-4 hours a day and typically do 2-5 quests a day on average. Epic Elite and Epic Hard. So if I get 25 comms a run on average that is about ~75-100 comms a day. So do the math and it's going to take me 42 to 56 days to earn a heart. I'll be leveled long before then. But there's also a lot of nice random loot I take from reward lists plus I run explorers/options/challenges which don't give comms so it will probably take longer. In any case, it's too long IMO.

    I think the devs had good intentions in trying to let us earn comms along the way as we level as oppossed to designing them like tokens which you could only earn once you reached level cap. However, it's just going to be impossible to balance because there are so many different ways of progressing through epic levels and there's no one "magic number" that's going to work for all of them. I think the only solution is to just make them work like tokens do now and require a level 28 capped character to start earning them. Tying them to endgame makes it possible to come up with a reasonable number.
    Last edited by axel15810; 12-17-2013 at 10:09 AM.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I just don't see this system being sustainable in the long run. You can feel the grind and it's painful. 3 terrible system baked into one; valor grinding, karma grinding and off destiny leveling.
    I really don't understand the karma/off destiny part. I don't see how that is an advantageous mechanic for anyone. While I can see some sort of token karma requirement to unlock a sphere. I don't understand how emphasizing the grind to this extent is useful.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    You can collect 4200 in a matter of 3 days, but.

    The important part is but.

    BUT it requires a good build, extreme knowledge, multiple alts in good builds and hella lot time to spare.
    Im just saying its possible, my own collection rate the last 4 lifes is around a week for 4200.
    Less stressful and bit more fun as i dont do same quests all time.

    So, as people alrdy said, the way you farm for 4200 valor differs from xp farm.

    You do quick fast valor/min quest and most of those offer pitfull xp.

    Tho its quite ok to still do regular von runs etc /faster to 28 = better gear, more feats = easier overall.
    How many hours did you play to get 4200 comm in 3 days?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I really don't understand the karma/off destiny part. I don't see how that is an advantageous mechanic for anyone. While I can see some sort of token karma requirement to unlock a sphere. I don't understand how emphasizing the grind to this extent is useful.
    This. I don't understand the off destiny mechanic either.

    Nobody likes running in a destiny that doesn't fit their character. Nobody. It is just not fun. Having to take two steps back to take one step forward is just a bad mechanic. You should always be progressively improving your character, that's what people like to do. Having to make your character worse before it gets better is just a huge chore. There is nothing fun about it. This is why I no longer play my alts. Earning fate points for twists is way too big of a chore to do on more than one character.

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  8. #28
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    ETR still sucks.

    Drop the heart requirement to 2500 coms.

    Lower the Karma requirement to 2 million.

    Do that and ETR will suck a lot less.

    Heroic TR is just so much more fun right now, especially with the new XP curves.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I agree that what you say in entirely plausible. And not unlike Turbine. They just left out a huge portion of the equation: the human factor.

    Most of us aren't robots (I wonder about some). Turbine likes to do things that seem to look good on paper. Unfortunately things on paper don't always translate well into the real world. Between their implementation, our interpretation and the actual results so many things can go awry. Their perceived inability to want to adjust the numbers shows they have a hard time adapting or a hard time letting go of ideas.

    Most of us are willing to put the time in if they work with us. And they have shown some thinly veiled attempts at wanting to with this ER stuff, they aren't quite there yet.
    I think you are leaving out a huge portion though. The WB factor. So what looks good or bad on paper really may not matter. Look at it this way. If your house payments are $1000/month and your only options are to make a sure $100-150/week or a long shot at making $350/week, which has a better chance to let you keep your house?

    I personally think they are in a position where an unlikely to succeed plan is the only plan that has a chance of being good enough to meet the expectations WB has set for them. At least if they want to continue growing the game.

    So really, if enough players either leave or even show a willingness to grind out the comms, they lose. Only enough willing to circumvent the grind by using the store will allow them to succeed.

    This mainly due to new player numbers not being enough to support the hybrid payment system and that system breaking down over time with longer term premium players, as well as not enough subscribers to pay for the shortfall.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    ETR still sucks.

    Drop the heart requirement to 2500 coms.

    Lower the Karma requirement to 2 million.

    Do that and ETR will suck a lot less.

    Heroic TR is just so much more fun right now, especially with the new XP curves.
    I would add allow us to level off desinities while remaining in our best destiny. Even if it is at a 50% xp penalty I would be fine with it.

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  11. #31
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I would add allow us to level off desinities while remaining in our best destiny. Even if it is at a 50% xp penalty I would be fine with it.
    That's a different issue but I understand where you are coming from.

    2 million Karma is about what it takes to fill an ED so it's a reasonable number to be able to get a PL.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's a different issue but I understand where you are coming from.

    2 million Karma is about what it takes to fill an ED so it's a reasonable number to be able to get a PL.
    It's also the amount one is able to get from the store each life, so synergises well there too. 2m xp stones get a boost if they allow one to completely skip the lamest part of the process.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    What's worse is BANK SPACE. When you ETR, you don't get a reincarnation bankslot, so all that stuff you can't wear is stuck on your character - while you need other gear, leaving no room for looting.

    gggggggrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrr!!!
    What? Are you kidding me??? No Reincarnation vault storage on ETR?
    Did they contract this content out to CGI?
    Inconceivable!


    I imagine most like myself would like to do more ETRs but will wait as long as 12 months to gather enough commendations through reasonable play and some HTRs while others like the OP will be fast tracked to eventual burn out trying to grind out the ridiculous amount of commendations needed for ITR or ETR. That is if I am still playing in 12 months...


    I wonder if my new Xbox has more than 5 tabs of storage...

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    What? Are you kidding me??? No Reincarnation vault storage on ETR?
    Did they contract this content out to CGI?
    Inconceivable!


    I imagine most like myself would like to do more ETRs but will wait as long as 12 months to gather enough commendations through reasonable play and some HTRs while others like the OP will be fast tracked to eventual burn out trying to grind out the ridiculous amount of commendations needed for ITR or ETR. That is if I am still playing in 12 months...


    I wonder if my new Xbox has more than 5 tabs of storage...
    It's fair because you don't have to empty your reincarnation cache before epic TRing.

    Epic TRing is based on Lesser Reincarnation so create a new cache doesn't really make sense. You aren't starting an entirely new life.

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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I really don't understand the karma/off destiny part. I don't see how that is an advantageous mechanic for anyone. While I can see some sort of token karma requirement to unlock a sphere. I don't understand how emphasizing the grind to this extent is useful.
    Honestly, me neither. Fun means I spend money. Fun means I play more. As it is I got tired of it after running 3 quests yesterday and watched a terrible SciFi movie instead. Thank God I'm not on a off destiny right now; I'm not entirely sure I even go for 1 if I was.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I would add allow us to level off desinities while remaining in our best destiny. Even if it is at a 50% xp penalty I would be fine with it.
    Or use karma from other destinies, like 3000000 to ETR in the same destiny, 6 mill in off destiny.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    It's fair because you don't have to empty your reincarnation cache before epic TRing.

    Epic TRing is based on Lesser Reincarnation so create a new cache doesn't really make sense. You aren't starting an entirely new life.
    Yeah, because I imagine after reaching level 28 there is sooo much left in your reincarnation cache that you haven't had to use along the way. (Disclaimer: This is sarcasm - because I'm guessing you won't get it)


    "It's fair"? Really? What does fair have to do with it? So you think it is some kind of demented strategy (or some equalizer mechanism) that they don't provide storage for ML items that you can't even use until you level up?
    How about for convenience? How about doing it because it reduces the hassle? I can't think of a single reason why there is a such a small limit to storage space (for paying players).
    Last edited by hp1055cm; 12-17-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  18. #38
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    Comm rewards are doubled until the end of the year. That should help a bit.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    How many hours did you play to get 4200 comm in 3 days?
    Current route i got now nets me around 500 valor daily in around 3-4 hours ( so my income rate is usualy 4200 during a week time as i take it easy and mix quests that are fun for me in route). In case i did same route on 2 alts it would mean 9-12 hours and your income would be 1500 daily , so 3 days are more then enough.. But thing is its to tiring and requires rly strong builds /mainly shiradi casting which is braindamaging for me to play on longer time periods.

    Im saying the possibility exists but i personaly would rather take 4-5 days longer and not get burnt out after 3 etrs.

    As basicaly to get good valor/min you need to invisi alot and zerg alot or have ability to cc or kill fast..
    Many cant handle 3 mobs at once in ee yet alone pull red like im doing atm in my druid life..

    Is it effective? Yes. Does it require gear and knowledge? hell yes..
    Is the 3 day route tiring? honestly its way worse then doing 10 abbots in 1 day with pugs
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 12-17-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotSomeQuestions View Post
    Comm rewards are doubled until the end of the year. That should help a bit.
    This is indeed nice. Hopefully it'll be permanent.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

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