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  1. #1
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Default How good are cleave and great cleave? THF vs TWF? THF Line worth it? Returning player

    Hi everyone, I'm coming back to the game after some time and I'd be glad if you could help me =)

    First, Cleave and Great Cleave. Back when I played these feats were pretty much just a tech choice and only 2 classes played it: Fighters for excess of feats and Barbarians as a pre-requisit to their PRE. Now I see everyone and their mommas are taking the feats right after Power Attack..? I see they got buffed but are they all that good?

    THF or TWF? I know some builds will prefer one to the other but as a generic answer, which one is better? Back when I played THF was superior and easier to acquire while TWF was better if you had full weapon sets ready.

    Back when I played, THF line "helped DPS" if you didn't care about anything else. Given I'm playing a feat starved build with lots of interesting things to worry about, should I take THF line? The main argument I'm seeing is the interaction with Cleave and Great Cleave.

    Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by Nayus; 12-12-2013 at 11:09 AM.

  2. #2
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Cleave & great cleave are great - they let you hit multiple enemies at once, and add +W (base weapon dice) to it too.. they're also prerequisites to get the Overwhelming Criticals feat in epic levels, which adds +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20.

    As for 2hander vs. 2weapon.. much the same as before, 2weapons have the advantage of high attack rates for additional effects, 2handers are better for pure base damage. The 2hander feats aren't as necessary to make using them effective (vs. 2weapon feats being almost mandatory if youre going that style), but will still boost both the damage your glancing blows do (the AoE portion of a 2handed swing that just does damage based off the weapon's base damage) & give a chance for those glancing blows to include the weapon's other effects too.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  3. #3
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Hi everyone, I'm coming back to the game after some time and I'd be glad if you could help me =)

    First, Cleave and Great Cleave. Back when I played these feats were pretty much just a tech choice and only 2 classes played it: Fighters for excess of feats and Barbarians as a pre-requisit to their PRE. Now I see everyone and their mommas are taking the feats right after Power Attack..? I see they got buffed but are they all that good?
    They are that good and a whole lot more.

    THF or TWF? I know some builds will prefer one to the other but as a generic answer, which one is better? Back when I played THF was superior and easier to acquire while TWF was better if you had full weapon sets ready.
    Unless your playing Rogue, Monk or Ranger I do not see anyone going TWF. TWF requires three feats (excluding rangers) and THF requires none and in addition synergies very well with the above feats and martial ED's.

    Back when I played, THF line "helped DPS" if you didn't care about anything else. Given I'm playing a feat starved build with lots of interesting things to worry about, should I take THF line? The main argument I'm seeing is the interaction with Cleave and Great Cleave.

    Thank you in advance.
    I wouldn't take the feats. PA, Cleave, and G.Cleave is all you need if you are melee based. Not sure what your build is so that may have more effect on what would be suggested.

  4. #4
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyDuck81 View Post
    Cleave & great cleave are great - they let you hit multiple enemies at once, and add +W (base weapon dice) to it too.. they're also prerequisites to get the Overwhelming Criticals feat in epic levels, which adds +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20.
    They're also pre-reqs for Lay Waste and Momentum Swing, which are pretty much no-brainers for anyone in Legendary Dreadnought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Back when I played, THF line "helped DPS" if you didn't care about anything else. Given I'm playing a feat starved build with lots of interesting things to worry about, should I take THF line? The main argument I'm seeing is the interaction with Cleave and Great Cleave.
    Short answer: it depends.

    Long answer: THF chain boosts your glancing blows significantly; but glancing blows only proc when standing still using regular atks. So if you like moving around a lot and/or spamming Cleaves, you'll get much less mileage from the feats. And since the THF feats are back-loaded (i.e., GTHF provides the most DPS b/c it adds an extra glancing blow), if your build is as feat-starved as you claim, then I would probably say the THF chain is the first thing you should consider dropping.

    As for THF vs TWF: well, obviously there are a lot of factors, but in general I would say TWF is still better single-target DPS (esp. if you've got lots of sneak atks or proc-on-hit/-crit effects), while THF is better vs mobs; Cleave atks don't benefit from doublestrike, glancing blows, or offhand procs, AFAIK, so they're all about the "raw" dmg per hit you do and that favors 2H weapons.

  5. #5
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, it helped A LOT xD

  6. #6

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    Yep, just chiming in to agree with what's been posted. In a nutshell:

    Cleave & Great Cleave are the new Toughness for melee: essentially required (toughness no longer is)
    Cleave & Great Cleave synergize better with THF than TWF
    The THF line is solid but expendable. It's also essentially an "all or nothing" deal: take all 3 or take none

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    They're also pre-reqs for Lay Waste and Momentum Swing, which are pretty much no-brainers for anyone in Legendary Dreadnought.
    Well, to be exact, only Cleave is an actual prerequisite for those two, even though GC does bring additional synergies. (And Power Attack needs to be on, too, unlike with Cleave.)

    Lay Waste is fun even without having taken Great Cleave. Multi-trip, heh.
    Last edited by mna; 12-13-2013 at 08:35 PM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).

  8. #8
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Well, to be exact, only Cleave is an actual prerequisite for those two, even though GC does bring additional synergies.
    Hmmm, I could've sworn LW req'd GC, but it appears you're right. I guess it's been so long since I took Cleave alone I just treat them as a paired set.

  9. #9
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    TWF is still higher single target dps than THF, but the focus of the game now is not raid bosses with huge hp bars, it's trash mobs with huge hp bars(at least in EE). So even though twf will kill 1 mob faster, it will kill 10 trash mobs much much slower than thf, and that matters now.
    Last edited by Lonnbeimnech; 12-14-2013 at 12:45 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    cleave& great cleave are no brainers for melee's these days (even archers btw)
    adding more damage, increasing as the base damage of the weapon goes up.
    In Heroic Quests, Cleaves help emptying a room in no time, just gather them up like a sorc with fireball would.
    In epics:
    lay waste& momentum swing are great when you're using Legendary Dreadnought.
    Overwhelming crittical needs them too.

    if i remember correctly, cleaves and momentum swing/lay waste do not suffer from slowdown effects (slow spell etc)
    last i remember: the 2hf line aplies to cleaves (not sure though...)
    I am however very sure that double strike works on cleaves, A lot! if you take the time and effort to ncrease this double strike %.

    As for the power attack:
    Turn it on every time you log on, dont turn it of, if you miss due to power attack, reroll
    Hitting stuff is easy (they changed the chance to hit during update 14)

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    lay waste& momentum swing are great when you're using Legendary Dreadnought.
    They're also great if you can Twist them into FotW.
    if i remember correctly, cleaves and momentum swing/lay waste do not suffer from slowdown effects (slow spell etc)
    Correct, however the downside is they're also not affected by Haste effects; i.e., they have a fixed animation speed, IIUC.

  12. #12
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    cleaves and such seem to be affected by reconstruction speed boos though

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