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Thread: Boost Capstones

  1. #1
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    Default Boost Capstones

    It seems the nerf-this-and-that crowd is out in force lately. I am not a fan of tearing things down, especially when I'm having fun in the game.

    I do however agree that the carrot for single class builds just is not strong enough. I would like to see the strengths of the level 18 core abilities at least doubled and the capstone quadrupled or better in power. The level 20 capstone is an epic level power and competes with epic destinies for build attention.

    There was a post a while back that capstones were balanced against 2 level splashes. With the enhancement pass, a 2 level splash brings a ton more to the table. I'm all for interesting builds and lots of choices, but to make capstones an attractive choice... the power needs to go up... way up. I would recommend it be almost as powerful as an epic destiny t5 ability. That is what it would take to get me to consider pure class again. Every class should have a tempting reason for a single class build.

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    I think this is something everyone agrees on. I've also posted before that I think the capstones should be equal to a T5 ED ability...after all when you hit 20 you become an epic character anyways. I hope the devs read this thread and consider it. Splashes are way better than pure on almost every class. The capstones are very lacking. It's not even a debate.

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    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    I also am unimpressed with capstones and play mostly multi-class characters; although my builds are rarely, if ever, just 2 levels of splash.
    It would be nice to have a choice of cap stone for classes with alternate builds like Tempest Rangers.


    I am a big fan of evasion but it is a bit silly IMO that you can take 2 levels of Monk or Rogue and have evasion on another class. Rangers don't get evasion until level 7 or 9 I think. Perhaps it would be less of an issue if there were 5 tiers of evasion with each progressively better and traps had tougher saves with the damage applied at 20/40/60/80/100% instead of all or none. The current improved evasion for rogues seems to provide little extra benefit.Too many people (other than rogues) seem to ignore traps which is proof that the benefit of evasion with high saves is abused.

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    Signed
    Yeela - Favored Soul Healer and Nuker
    Xylah - Pally Arcane Archer
    Redsonjah - Barbarian DPS

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    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    /signed

    Capstones need a boost
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
    BoloGrubb / DJgrubb / Gijo

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    I don't think capstones are the real issue here... why do people multiclass, let's look at the main reasons?

    1. To gain access to early auto-granted feats (e.g. Ranger, Monk, Rogue and others for some more specific builds), or bonus feats (e.g. Monk, Fighter & Wiz)
    2. Trapping / skill points (Rogue or Artificer)
    3. Useful tier 1 / 2 enhancement options (e.g. Divine Might)
    4. Saving throw boost, often in conjunction with Evasion.

    There will be other reasons, but I would consider those to be the main ones, and no capstone buffing is going to counter those reasons for multi-classing.

    So I think the radical overhaul that is required has to come as a benefit of taking level 20 in a class - any class. It might seem overpowered at first look, but consider what you are giving up by not taking 2 levels of Rogue / Monk / whatever...

    Taking level 20 of a class should grant, as an absolute minimum:
    2 bonus feats of your choice that you qualify for (so IPS with only a 12 dex is not an option etc) - this would need to make feats such as Evasion available to any class too
    +3 to all saving throws instead of the +1 to one or two of them.
    Other things could be added (e.g. 20 skill point boost for level 20 only) to mitigate previous bad design decisions... I'm looking at you Spellcraft (needed with heal or Repair & concentration on a Cha / Wis based class with only 2 skill points per level)

    If this was in place, I might (and still only might) consider the occasional pure class build - even the idea of a pure Barb would have some redeeming features if the above was an option. Capstones can stay as they are generally - I probably still wouldn't try and find 40 points worth of useful enhancements in any one tree.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    This.

    And Nerf monks.

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    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockHeavy View Post
    I don't think capstones are the real issue here... why do people multiclass, let's look at the main reasons?

    1. To gain access to early auto-granted feats (e.g. Ranger, Monk, Rogue and others for some more specific builds), or bonus feats (e.g. Monk, Fighter & Wiz)
    2. Trapping / skill points (Rogue or Artificer)
    3. Useful tier 1 / 2 enhancement options (e.g. Divine Might)
    4. Saving throw boost, often in conjunction with Evasion.

    There will be other reasons, but I would consider those to be the main ones, and no capstone buffing is going to counter those reasons for multi-classing.
    This assumes that every player *will* multi-class, which is an assumption on Godzilla-ian proportions. Not all players will multi-class.

    However buffing capstone will make the decision harder to multiclass, which is the way it should be. If you are given a choice to buy for a luxury car or an ultra-compact economy car for the exact same price, most people will go for the luxury car because they get more for what they pay. Some will go economy because they are smart enough to figure in fuel prices, but this is then offset against the amenities of the vehicle vs what you pay.

    However luxury cars and economy cars are priced differently, mainly because luxury costs. That difference in cost is what forces people to determine what they want and what they need. So the choice becomes much harder, or the pathways become much clearer (depending on how you view things).

    The same principle should apply to pure and multi-class builds…but it presently doesn’t.

  9. #9
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This.

    And Nerf monks.
    ...and Warforged...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockHeavy View Post
    I don't think capstones are the real issue here... why do people multiclass, let's look at the main reasons?

    1. To gain access to early auto-granted feats (e.g. Ranger, Monk, Rogue and others for some more specific builds), or bonus feats (e.g. Monk, Fighter & Wiz)
    2. Trapping / skill points (Rogue or Artificer)
    3. Useful tier 1 / 2 enhancement options (e.g. Divine Might)
    4. Saving throw boost, often in conjunction with Evasion.

    There will be other reasons, but I would consider those to be the main ones, and no capstone buffing is going to counter those reasons for multi-classing.

    So I think the radical overhaul that is required has to come as a benefit of taking level 20 in a class - any class. It might seem overpowered at first look, but consider what you are giving up by not taking 2 levels of Rogue / Monk / whatever...

    Taking level 20 of a class should grant, as an absolute minimum:
    2 bonus feats of your choice that you qualify for (so IPS with only a 12 dex is not an option etc) - this would need to make feats such as Evasion available to any class too
    +3 to all saving throws instead of the +1 to one or two of them.
    Other things could be added (e.g. 20 skill point boost for level 20 only) to mitigate previous bad design decisions... I'm looking at you Spellcraft (needed with heal or Repair & concentration on a Cha / Wis based class with only 2 skill points per level)

    If this was in place, I might (and still only might) consider the occasional pure class build - even the idea of a pure Barb would have some redeeming features if the above was an option. Capstones can stay as they are generally - I probably still wouldn't try and find 40 points worth of useful enhancements in any one tree.
    I disagree with your solution. Here is my opinion -

    We don't want to give the same benefits you get as splashing (like evasion) as capstones. All that does is makes pure characters and splash characters the same.

    What we need is an alternative. The capstones should give a big boost to whatever is the core competency for each class. For exaple, kensei/barb capstones should give a big DPS boost, bard capstones should give a big boost to their songs, rogue capstone should give a big bonus to sneak attack damage, ect.

    But these boosts need to be SUBSTANCIAL, not a pathetic +2 to STR/CON to rage for barbs and some minor damage for pallies. We should have to choose between building for DPS (pure) or survivability (splash). Or in the case of classes like bards, superior buffing ability vrs. survivability, ect. Whatever the class's main ability is, we should have to choose between a big boost in that area or evasion/pally saves/ect.

    The real problem is that splashes do as much DPS but gain tons of survivability when compared to pure builds.

  11. #11
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Instead of "buff capstones" what should be considered is what is wrong with the individual capstones? Why is multi classing for better saves, more feats, more skill points, evasion, just enough in a particular class to get a T5 enhancement the preferred build? What makes specific class mixes more powerful than going pure? These are the questions that need to be asked and answered. I don't think capstones are the specific problems, but a variety of these answers plus content.

    Staying pure for heroic leveling is not weak in the slightest. It may or may not be as powerful as a multi class, but by far is it weak. Pre-enhancement change, you felt like you were actually giving up something just to be better at something else if you multi classed and depending on your build goal. It used to be prestiges were front loaded if you took 6 levels of 2 classes, but you still sacrificed a powerful capstone. There was still some semblance of balance.

    Now it doesn't feel like you are sacrificing really anything by multi classing. Now you can build powerful characters and pick the low hanging fruit from multiple prestige trees. Now if you want to survive EE it almost feels required to invest heavily in self sufficiency and evasion. You can pick enhancements from multiple class trees that will stack with your saves and damage or increase your casting power. With the right mix build and that you can swap around in different destinies that only imply they were designed for specific classes, you can twist and boost even more power.

    To make going pure more appealing, you first have to go to the root of the problem, understand why and than make necessary adjustments. Capstones is one of the problems, but buffing them won't solve the problem.
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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    What does a capstone have to look like to make me debate not taking 6 monk levels in favor of said capstone? Discuss.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What does a capstone have to look like to make me debate not taking 6 monk levels in favor of said capstone? Discuss.
    This is the real question. Dance of flowers in and of itself is better than the capstones.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 12-12-2013 at 12:50 PM.

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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This assumes that every player *will* multi-class, which is an assumption on Godzilla-ian proportions. Not all players will multi-class.

    However buffing capstone will make the decision harder to multiclass, which is the way it should be. If you are given a choice to buy for a luxury car or an ultra-compact economy car for the exact same price, most people will go for the luxury car because they get more for what they pay. Some will go economy because they are smart enough to figure in fuel prices, but this is then offset against the amenities of the vehicle vs what you pay.

    However luxury cars and economy cars are priced differently, mainly because luxury costs. That difference in cost is what forces people to determine what they want and what they need. So the choice becomes much harder, or the pathways become much clearer (depending on how you view things).

    The same principle should apply to pure and multi-class builds…but it presently doesn’t.
    I dont think the analogy fits because people arent multiclassing for things like creature comforts, they are multiclassing for functionality. 6 levels of monk doesnt a buick into a high end cadillac, 6 levels of monk turns a chevy s-10 into a humvee.

    The assumption is not that every player will multiclass, its that in order to be optimal, one must multiclass. In most cases it is a correct assumption.

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    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I dont think the analogy fits because people arent multiclassing for things like creature comforts, they are multiclassing for functionality. 6 levels of monk doesnt a buick into a high end cadillac, 6 levels of monk turns a chevy s-10 into a humvee.

    The assumption is not that every player will multiclass, its that in order to be optimal, one must multiclass. In most cases it is a correct assumption.
    You are looking for the comfort aspect of the analogy, and not what it was really about : cost or price.

    If there is an associated cost to giving up the capstone, then you'll think twice about multi-classing. If there isn't, you won't.

    You think a luxury car is all comfort and lacks functionality? Luxury cars are the vehicles in which all of the new, improved technologies make their debut. Things like ABS breaks, traction control, review cameras, parking sensors, and so on started out being offered on luxury vehicles, and then moved their way down to everyday vehicle when the cost justified their inclusion.

    So, when you tae this into account, it makes buying a luxury car a slam-dunk when compared to an economy sub-compact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What does a capstone have to look like to make me debate not taking 6 monk levels in favor of said capstone? Discuss.
    6 monk gets you +3 con, 12 PRR, +15% to your AC, +1 crit multiplier on a 19-20, 6% dodge, +6 AC, Evasion, great save progression for 6 levels, immunity to natural diseases, +10% move speed and 3 bonus feats from a list of feats very compatible with most melee builds.

    Pfft, I'd totally take the Tempest capstone.

  17. #17
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    Signed.



    This will give incentive to stay pure, without nerfing multi-classed.

    (Only actual nerf I want right now it to 10K stars and that is just to make tied to manyshot so that you can not use both.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #18
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurgar78 View Post
    6 monk gets you +3 con, 12 PRR, +15% to your AC, +1 crit multiplier on a 19-20, 6% dodge, +6 AC, Evasion, great save progression for 6 levels, immunity to natural diseases, +10% move speed and 3 bonus feats from a list of feats very compatible with most melee builds.

    Pfft, I'd totally take the Tempest capstone.
    I also think armor needs a boost as well.

    Boosting armor and capstones significantly will help offset what splashing Monk gives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ...and Warforged...
    LOL Dream on.

    They made monk as a splash even more valuable than before. And then they introduced Bladeforged with self-healing in ANY class and all the benefits of WF.

    I don't think you have much hope of a nerf there. They already had to nerf WF a bit with all this "immunity" stuff going away, but other than that... it's all stronger and better in Bladeforged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This.

    And Nerf monks.
    Haha agreed!
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