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  1. #21
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    I agree with giving some boss mobs (and even some trash mobs) ways to mitigate defense. Boss mobs should have more than one, trash shouldn't have more than one type of defense that they ignore.

    Another possible idea for tanks would be to implement a shield block (not the garbage we have now) where you have a % chance to actually block the attack and take no damage. This percentage could be improved with gear, or perhaps even tied to some skill. Sword and board should be competitive in regard to DPS and way ahead in survival.

    It just ain't so.

  2. #22
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    How about just having deflection bonus granting a % chance along with it's AC bonus, but that % being %block not %miss, meaning if you are hit (with your shield and armour or deflection granting spell), you have a % chance to passively shieldblock.

    This would have the effect of meaning:

    -your AC still counts
    -carrying a shield grants an additional layer of passive protection in combat so when you do get hit you may passively block a special effect, and you would get your DR.
    -Use of shields would be desirable at least situationally even if otherwise the AC boost they give wouldn't really matter.
    -Active shieldblocking would be unaffected - but it would be comparably worse than the passive chance, so woudl need a buff of some kind

    DR on it's own these days is a bit useless at higher levels when compared with PRR, so perhaps the Improved Shield Bash feat could be buffed (and renamed improved shield USE) so that when the % chance procs it boosts the available DR or PRR from the shield or something in a way that scales with level (or perhaps this is where the boost to active shield blocking would come from). This doesn't grant more AC defense, but certainly gives S&B tank builds - or at least, builds who invest in feats and use a physical shield a bit of an edge vs magic sources of deflection, without actually affecting AC itself.
    Last edited by dunklezhan; 12-13-2013 at 05:53 PM.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Simpler thought to accomplish similar goals.

    All armor should be worth 33% more PRR. This puts heavy armor with a 28 BAB at 45 PRR. Substantially more than non GMOF monks get from Earth, and equal to full epic maxxed GMOF monks.

    Shield mastery eats should be worth double the PRR, so that true S&B tanks have significantly more than even GMOF monks.

    All armor should have the dodge cap raised by 10 (still maxxing at 25 of course). That at least allows 10% dodge items to fully work while wearing the heaviest armor.


    The three values can be massaged as desired easily enough to whatever balance point feels right.


    In addition to helping S&B types, this will also be a substantial boon to other armor wearers. Right now, it is very easy to cap out the Dodge bonus on even most light armors with no real effort. So only a handful of armors with nimbleness on them give enough PRR to make up for what they cost you in dodge, even for toons not build for dodge. Dodge has simply become too important, and too easy to get, to live with the limitation of current max dex bonuses.

    By limiting the Shield bonuses to feats, you can keep casters from riding the coattails of your changes without paying any cost. Plus, none of these changes requires any substantial changes to the game engine.
    Last edited by Raoull; 12-13-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Regarding PRR . . . Armor type should give a multiplier effect.
    Oooo that's an idea, a base PRR from the armor and a Multiplier effect, IE: Nothing = 1, Light = 1.33, Medium = 1.66 heavy = 2

    That way, heavy armor can seriously augment the PRR, which since it had diminishing returns, it won't be amazing, but it will be something.

  5. #25
    Community Member Cloista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Oooo that's an idea, a base PRR from the armor and a Multiplier effect, IE: Nothing = 1, Light = 1.33, Medium = 1.66 heavy = 2

    That way, heavy armor can seriously augment the PRR, which since it had diminishing returns, it won't be amazing, but it will be something.

    Or how about:

    PRR = Armour Enhancement Value x Proficiency Value:

    EG: Heavy Would give BAB x Enh, Medium 2/3BAB x Enh, Light 1/3BAB x Enh. Also fix Adamantine and Mithril bodies to being in their correct proficiency level (Heavy/Light).

    So assuming: Level 28 Full BAB class (24BAB) in Un-upgraded Flawless Dragon Armour, we'd be looking at:
    Heavy: 7x BAB = 168PRR
    Medium: 7x 2/3BAB= 112PRR
    Light: 7x 1/3BAB= 56PRR

    For Shields:
    PRR = Enhancement x Type, when having Shield Mastery, Imp Shield Mastery Doubling the values.

    EG: Buckler/Small 1x Enh, Heavy/Large 2x Enh, Tower 3x Enh. with SM, 2/4/6 x Enh with Imp SM.
    So Assuming: SM/IMP SM:
    EE Skyvault (Tower): 7x6=42PRR
    EE Bulwark (Large): 7x4=28PRR

    Taking both examples together we have a Heavy Armour/Tower user at: 210PRR or 57.12% reduction, before enhancements/EDs/augments/additional feats.

    Ofcourse the exact numbers would probably need tweaking, maybe 3/4Heavy 1/2Meadium 1/4 Light would be more balanced.

    This would send PRR values skyrocketing for armour/shield users, compensating the lost dodge with drastically improved damage reduction.
    Last edited by Cloista; 12-14-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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  6. #26
    Community Member OverlordOfRats's Avatar
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    I had a suggetion in this thread.

    To make heavy armor provide better defense, add in Deflection.

    Deflection would work like dodge, but in reverse. Instead of dodging the blow, you would be using your armor to deflect the blow.
    Robes would have the least Max Deflection rating, while heavy armor would have the most.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    What they should do is give all mobs in EE, true seeing and a ghostbane weapon. That would even things out a bit.
    Except that this would almost completely ruin one of the main reasons for considering taking pale master as a wiz (plus wiz already relies heavily on blur to negate damage and not die too often... at least mine always do lol)

    Otherwise all other ideas seem great!

  8. #28
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    How about just having deflection bonus granting a % chance along with it's AC bonus, but that % being %block not %miss, meaning if you are hit (with your shield and armour or deflection granting spell), you have a % chance to passively shieldblock.

    Yes, this is what I'm asking for. The "Deflection" chance for be separate from (non-existant in EE miss chance from Armor class.

  9. #29
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Oooo that's an idea, a base PRR from the armor and a Multiplier effect, IE: Nothing = 1, Light = 1.33, Medium = 1.66 heavy = 2

    That way, heavy armor can seriously augment the PRR, which since it had diminishing returns, it won't be amazing, but it will be something.
    That's what I'm thinking, heavy armor doubles the PRR from other sources, light and medium thinking 50% and 75% respectively.

    Do that and Earth-stance is no longer stupidly over-powered. Heck, I might even end my crusade to nerf monks.

    /not.

  10. #30
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's what I'm thinking, heavy armor doubles the PRR from other sources, light and medium thinking 50% and 75% respectively.

    Do that and Earth-stance is no longer stupidly over-powered. Heck, I might even end my crusade to nerf monks.

    /not.
    To me, the armor should be the main source of the prr. I would take your idea, and reverse it. Make the other sources multiply the base value of the armor, which would be higher than it is now.

    This may seem like it accomplishes essentially the same thing. The most benefit is to be had by wearing both armor and other sources. The difference would be in having only one or the other.

    Having only armor should be much better than having only other sources, in my opinion. Getting better armor should have more effect than getting better 'other sources'.

  11. #31
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    To me, the armor should be the main source of the prr. I would take your idea, and reverse it. Make the other sources multiply the base value of the armor, which would be higher than it is now.

    This may seem like it accomplishes essentially the same thing. The most benefit is to be had by wearing both armor and other sources. The difference would be in having only one or the other.

    Having only armor should be much better than having only other sources, in my opinion. Getting better armor should have more effect than getting better 'other sources'.
    Perhaps add the armor bonus to the PRR value?

    Light armor = 100% of bonus so say armor bonus 12 = 12 PRR?
    Heavy = 200% of armor bonus = so like 70 PRR on a defender?

    I really don't think it's that much considering the diminishing returns of PRR.

    With all that said any better PRRs from armor should be in addition to this idea of mine (which was stolen from others and streamlined). I believe the "deflection" chance actually makes armor sexy again.

  12. #32
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I apologize for not reading every post in this thread. This may have been mentioned already, but how about making a shield "better". Let me explain. A shield adds a bit of AC currently. By the time you get to theoretical "useful" AC numbers in epic elite, the actual AC from your shield just isn't making a huge difference. You do get many other defensive bonuses just from wearing a shield, but the shield itself doesn't do all that much defensively besides being an enabler.

    You give up significant offensive ability by putting on that shield. You should gain significant defense by putting on that shield. Make me want to pull out that shield in situations. What if your defensive shield bonus added on top of your AC bonus from armor. For example, say my defensive chance at level with my armor on is 55%. When I put my shield on, it jumps to 58%. That's fairly insignificant. What if my shield added a flat % bonus to my defensive chance at level, in addition to it's AC bonus.

    Small +5%
    Medium +10%
    Large +15%
    Tower +20%

    So in my above example, if I were wearing a tower shield, my defensive chance at level is 58% due to my armor AC and shield AC together and an extra +20% bonus to defensive chance at level just for having a tower shield on for 78% total. Even if a mob were CR 150 and I'd normally have at best a 5% defense chance at level, that 20% kicks in and I'm raised to 25%. Against CR 1 mobs, I'd normally have a 75% defense chance at level. With a tower shield, it's 95%

    Making the shield bonus a flat bonus added onto your defensive chance at level, you increase the defensive potential of a shield and make it a superior layer to your defense and allow shield wearers to much more easily get to a higher defensive chance.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    What if my shield added a flat % bonus to my defensive chance at level, in addition to it's AC bonus.
    Flat bonuses suck.

    I'm sorry, not all things should be equal. Back in U11 (before PRR, when we hade shield mastery giving a flat 20%) I found it ******** that a no-augment Tower shield (with an LGA for a +4 to intim, nice for Epic LOB) gave me high defensive than my Epic Kundarak Warding. That was just ********.

    You know what's missing int he game? back when AC worked (and depspite what the stupid people say it worked better than it does now) it was FUN building for that extra point or two, trying to fit 12 pounds of stuff in a 10 pound bag. We have that missing from the game.

  14. #34
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I apologize for not reading every post in this thread. This may have been mentioned already, but how about making a shield "better". Let me explain. A shield adds a bit of AC currently. By the time you get to theoretical "useful" AC numbers in epic elite, the actual AC from your shield just isn't making a huge difference. You do get many other defensive bonuses just from wearing a shield, but the shield itself doesn't do all that much defensively besides being an enabler.

    You give up significant offensive ability by putting on that shield. You should gain significant defense by putting on that shield. Make me want to pull out that shield in situations. What if your defensive shield bonus added on top of your AC bonus from armor. For example, say my defensive chance at level with my armor on is 55%. When I put my shield on, it jumps to 58%. That's fairly insignificant. What if my shield added a flat % bonus to my defensive chance at level, in addition to it's AC bonus.

    Small +5%
    Medium +10%
    Large +15%
    Tower +20%

    So in my above example, if I were wearing a tower shield, my defensive chance at level is 58% due to my armor AC and shield AC together and an extra +20% bonus to defensive chance at level just for having a tower shield on for 78% total. Even if a mob were CR 150 and I'd normally have at best a 5% defense chance at level, that 20% kicks in and I'm raised to 25%. Against CR 1 mobs, I'd normally have a 75% defense chance at level. With a tower shield, it's 95%

    Making the shield bonus a flat bonus added onto your defensive chance at level, you increase the defensive potential of a shield and make it a superior layer to your defense and allow shield wearers to much more easily get to a higher defensive chance.
    The only thing i don't like about that is that it basically just mimics dodge.

    It does fit in with the old pnp system of having a single number represent all defensed combined. Once you have decided to make 2 separate numbers, one representing getting missed, and one representing absorption of damage, i think you should go full ****** on it.

    hitting a monk should be like trying to swat a fly. Hitting an armored tank should be like trying to damage a rhino. It's hard to hit a fly, but if you do, you wipe it out. Conversely, you can hit a rhino every time, it's just hard to hurt it.

    I'll speak heresy. I would remove ac completely. Armor and shields would only have 2 relevant numbers. How much prr they provide, and how much dodge they will allow.

    Dodge is a static ability . If you have 20% dodge, it works exactly the same against a waterworks kobold as it does against an epic elite mob. Doesn't really make sense, but that's what it is.

    I would make prr work similarly. In fact i would just make it simply one prr mitigates 1% of damage. Then control the amounts that people could get, so they could never reach 100% mitigation, just as they can't reach 100% mitigation from dodge. You throw on a shield, it would have it's own prr value which would stack with any from the armor. Again, with the amounts carefully controlled so that it was balanced.

  15. #35
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Flat bonuses suck.

    I'm sorry, not all things should be equal. Back in U11 (before PRR, when we hade shield mastery giving a flat 20%) I found it ******** that a no-augment Tower shield (with an LGA for a +4 to intim, nice for Epic LOB) gave me high defensive than my Epic Kundarak Warding. That was just ********.

    You know what's missing int he game? back when AC worked (and depspite what the stupid people say it worked better than it does now) it was FUN building for that extra point or two, trying to fit 12 pounds of stuff in a 10 pound bag. We have that missing from the game.
    Well if we're going with what we wish we could see, I really wish they never changed the formula at all and fixed the over inflation that led to the d20 being pointless for AC in the first place. They replaced a working system (that was flawed due to poor mob design) with a broken system that still doesn't work due to poor mob design, but overcomplicated everything in the process. Replacing broken with more broken doesn't help anyone really.

    So I agree that the old system was light years ahead of this new one even if it wasn't completely perfect.

    Really, at this point they could just change it so all players hit with all weapons 95% of the time and remove AC completely and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. Toss on your dodge, displacement and ghostly and go.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 12-16-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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  16. #36
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Really, at this point they could just change it so all players hit with all weapons 95% of the time and remove AC completely and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. Toss on your dodge, displacement and ghostly and go.
    It's not that bad, the system is savable but needs work. The first thing is more viable defense options that don't require monk.

  17. #37
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It's not that bad, the system is savable but needs work. The first thing is more viable defense options that don't require monk.
    I totally agree... but "deflection" is the wrong way to go about it. Any improvement to the system should use the levers we already have, for no other reason that those can be tweaked without an insane amount of coding. Adding a brand new variable into the equation could drastically increase lag, as a random example, that I don't think is the case if we work within the bounds of PRR & Dodge.

    I think the current system was doing OK until Dodge became much more available. Before that, many toons had little to no dodge. But once 10% was available on items, and a single feat was worth 6-9% dodge (do the dodge enhancements stack?) maxing out the dodge cap of your armor, on even light armor, became trivial. And to add to that, they added some more sources of PRR (Stormhorns ring, enhancements), which, due to the nature of PRR scaling, reduced the value of PRR due to armor even further.

    Right now, you'd have to boost the PRR (or deal with the hassle of a brand new deflection system) rather substantially in order to beat out the ~10% of dodge sacrificed for heavy armor. (And this is why Mithral armors, such as the old Cove suit are now so bad. They have the dodge cap of heavy armor, and the PRR of medium armor.... It should be the other way around.) A low PRR toon might need 10-20 extra PRR to be worth the sacrificed dodge, but a high PRR toon might need 30-40. And that's just to break even. Easier to simply allow even heavy armor users to get that low hanging fruit dodge (and make it much easier for light armor users to at least approache cap with work), and then in order to really boost armor / S&B, add PRR on top of that.


    I still like my idea for the combo of effectiveness and ease of code. Absolutely a better equation could be found... but I don't think a better one could be done with out any serious changes to the game engine.
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  18. #38
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    (1 – (0.99^TotalPRR)) × (0.65 - (ArmoredPRR/100))

  19. #39
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    (1 – (0.99^TotalPRR)) × (0.65 - (ArmoredPRR/100))
    Math never solves anything. What's that mean in english?

  20. #40
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Isn't the highest miss chance one can get from AC 65%? It should be higher than that for heavy armor, similar to how dodge % for robe wearers is capped at 30% instead of armor dex bonus.

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