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  1. #101
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    It doesn't matter what you nerf or change, the good players will still build/create something that is ridiculously op and will become fotm. This has been happening for all the years I've been playing. In the end it makes no difference.

    Edit: And I am all for shiradi nerfs, and yes, I play a shiradi.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by xTethx View Post
    It doesn't matter what you nerf or change, the good players will still build/create something that is ridiculously op and will become fotm. This has been happening for all the years I've been playing. In the end it makes no difference.

    Edit: And I am all for shiradi nerfs, and yes, I play a shiradi.
    tethx thanks for the reply.
    I want clarify that more than a nerf to shiradi casters I'd like to see an end to this cry for nerf monk and furyshotters in general.
    Since there are other builds that match the kind of power of the monkchers (sorc-wiz shiradi with fvs levels for example) it's unfair imho to ask for a nerf only to the furyshotters.

    I would like to see more buffs for other kind of builds rather than a nerf to monkchers or shiradi casters
    Last edited by Aviya; 12-14-2013 at 11:35 AM.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    I've seen a few topics about how some ranged or master blitz chararacters are overpowered.
    Well if anyone is advocating for balance in DDO it should start from Shiradi Casters.

    I mean it doesn't make any sense to me to start asking for a fix to archers (especially because archery sucked for so much time) if shiradi casters retain their actual, out of the world, power.

    With the new enhancement they can spam magic missiles forever without ever finish their spell point bar. This comes from 2 levels of Favored soul that recharge 10 spell points every time a single magic missile crits.
    That means they cannot finish their sp bar and they are able to bring very nice dps, at least comparable (higher when there are 10+ mobs), to the one of the master blitz users or archers in fury of the wild.
    To this just add that they have in-build no save crowd control with nerve venom that procs alot.

    Devs, before you even start to consider any change to ranged or melee combat style you need to fix first the shiradi casters.

    Or even better don't nerf anyone and just improve classes like bard, paladin, artificiers and clerics that need some love.
    Shiradi sorc/wiz aren't overpowered really... Their DPS is way behind nuking sorcs and ranged builds, even further behind melee's.

    The draw to shiradi mm spamming is that they have much more endurance than a nuking sorc since they can just keep spamming unmeta'd magic missiles and get temporary SP back.
    They come out ahead of melee's since not only are EE HP's inflated as hell, the damage is too and most melee's won't be able to keep hacking away.
    They loose out to Monkchers on both damage and endurance. They do have better selfhealing though.

    Honestly I don't see how you can say that shiradi casters needs a nerf when you're playing a furyshot build yourself.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    tethx thanks for the reply.
    I want clarify that more than a nerf to shiradi casters I'd like to see an end to this cry for nerf monk and furyshotters in general.
    Since there are other builds that match the kind of power of the monkchers (sorc-wiz shiradi with fvs levels for example) it's unfair imho to ask for a nerf only to the furyshotters.

    I would like to see more buffs for other kind of builds rather than a nerf to monkchers or shiradi casters
    I totally agree. No one likes to see nerfs. But it would require more work from Turbine's side to buff everything more than to nerf a few things. So if everyone is crying for balance in order even see a minor attempt from Turbine's side it is going to be from nerfs not buffs. Either way the same people will still be soloing/shortmanning and zerging ee without blinking.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    Main difference between an archer shiradi and a caster shiradi is spell power and crit chance that affects procs. Casters have up to 500spell power and metamagics and critical chance with spells.
    So you could essentially nerf the caster shiradi by removing spell power and crit chance effects on procs, leaving the archer shiradi un-nerfed?
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  6. #106
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    I've seen a few topics about how some ranged or master blitz chararacters are overpowered.
    Well if anyone is advocating for balance in DDO it should start from Shiradi Casters.

    I mean it doesn't make any sense to me to start asking for a fix to archers (especially because archery sucked for so much time) if shiradi casters retain their actual, out of the world, power.

    With the new enhancement they can spam magic missiles forever without ever finish their spell point bar. This comes from 2 levels of Favored soul that recharge 10 spell points every time a single magic missile crits.
    That means they cannot finish their sp bar and they are able to bring very nice dps, at least comparable (higher when there are 10+ mobs), to the one of the master blitz users or archers in fury of the wild.
    To this just add that they have in-build no save crowd control with nerve venom that procs alot.

    Devs, before you even start to consider any change to ranged or melee combat style you need to fix first the shiradi casters.

    Or even better don't nerf anyone and just improve classes like bard, paladin, artificiers and clerics that need some love.
    Lord knows I'm not crazy about them but I don't think they can be 'fixed' until the Devs unbork DC casting.

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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    I've seen a few topics about how some ranged or master blitz chararacters are overpowered.
    Well if anyone is advocating for balance in DDO it should start from Shiradi Casters.

    I mean it doesn't make any sense to me to start asking for a fix to archers (especially because archery sucked for so much time) if shiradi casters retain their actual, out of the world, power.

    With the new enhancement they can spam magic missiles forever without ever finish their spell point bar. This comes from 2 levels of Favored soul that recharge 10 spell points every time a single magic missile crits.
    That means they cannot finish their sp bar and they are able to bring very nice dps, at least comparable (higher when there are 10+ mobs), to the one of the master blitz users or archers in fury of the wild.
    To this just add that they have in-build no save crowd control with nerve venom that procs alot.

    Devs, before you even start to consider any change to ranged or melee combat style you need to fix first the shiradi casters.

    Or even better don't nerf anyone and just improve classes like bard, paladin, artificiers and clerics that need some love.
    /signed. shiradi is so OP it crushes draconic, nobody runs draconic. nerf shiradi or buff draconic, especially the DI capstone, which completely sucks.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by xberto View Post
    So you could essentially nerf the caster shiradi by removing spell power and crit chance effects on procs, leaving the archer shiradi un-nerfed?
    It's even easier than that. Make Magic Missile, Force Missiles, Meteor Shower etc. have only one proc chance per spell, rather than one proc chance per impact. This would take a lot of cheese out of both Shiradi and the Favored Sorc battery builds.

    One spell casting should = one proc opportunity.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  9. #109
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    Wow there's a lot of people with zero actual experience playing a Shiradi (or draconic) rabble rousing for a nerf. I've been watching this thread and you guys who have never played one are embarrassing yourselves. If you think 4k crits are common in Shiradi (conversely not common in Draconic) then A) you haven't played one(either) and B) you're theorizing from ignorance based on what other people on the forums say.

    Once again the 7% chance of a force proc with a 2d100 roll for damage. If you don't know what that means then please stop.

    Absolute best case max roll:
    200*(100+600(600 spell power just to be safe how many people have 600 spellpower BEFORE metas?)+100(max)+75(emp that's 750 spell power folks!)/100=1750 non crit max roll.

    1750*2 = 3500

    What? 3500 damage when the stars align with 100 more spell power than even this farcically exaggerated thread is attributing to everyone? So you're saying those crits are not even possible without the Mob being helpless? Indeed.

    "But you're saying there's a chance" -Dumb and Dumber.

    Total spell power required to get a 4k crit is Absolute max roll (100 rolled twice) 725 spell power BEFORE Max and Empower. Once again this is "stars aligned" numbers. know anyone with 725 Spell power? Before Meta's? (hell know anyone with 725 WITH meta's?) No? Yeah me either.

    Just to sink this in: YOU NEED 900 SPELL POWER A 7% proc, A CRIT, and TWO ROLLS OF 100 on a d100...

    "But you're saying there's a chance" LOL.

    On the other hand Draconic have multiple sources of 300+ base damage that's based on 2d6 and 1d15+15 PER CHARACTER LEVEL. So what does that mean? That means the stars don't need to align to roll near max damage. That means that EVERY TIME YOU CAST ONE YOU HAVE A 40-50% CHANCE to crit for more than a Shiradi REALLY crits for. If your Draconic doesn't out DPS a Shiradi you're doing something terribly wrong. Granted Draconic uses more spell points but then it should when it has more raw DPS.

    Plug 300 into the "stars aligned" equation above... Not even 336 or 840 base damage just a meager 300, a less than max damage roll.

    Hell I'd put a max roll Lightning Bolt SLA with Vulnerable+25/Weakness+15/+20 Draconic Spell power/+Savant Max level/Caster level/Draconic + MCL and CL to that element, that crits and doesn't get saved on (much easier to achieve in Draconic) up against the Shiradi Force proc any day. I know I use both, in most cases my Lightning Bolt SLA is significantly better DPS.

    Have some self respect, If you want what the other guy has on his plate; go get it. Stop looking at what other people have and insisting that they should not have it because you don't like that they have it. If it's not bad enough that you're looking at other peoples plate jealously, you're not even seeing whats ACTUALLY on their plate... That Ribeye steak you see on my plate is actually a slice of pretty decent meatloaf... it's good, but it's not what you think it is.

    PS: just make Shiradi only proc once per spell = Massive nerf to AM Wizards. As shown above there's no actual reason to nerf Shiradi at all... it's popular because it is one of only 4 fun ED's that actually feel epic at all, and doesn't need the investment in past lives to play EE's... nerf it and we reduce that to 3 fun ED's and Multi-TR absolutely required to cast in EE.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-14-2013 at 03:49 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    Lord knows I'm not crazy about them but I don't think they can be 'fixed' until the Devs unbork DC casting.
    Why do so many people keep saying DC casting is borked? My DC caster does just fine, especially recently with the stacking augments change. It's laughably OP anywhere short of Epic GH and, in my time running EE Storm Horns for +2 loot the past few days, it's been consistently top killing amongst strong groups.

    DC casters are more specialized, have more things they can't kill efficiently such that they need to group to play a lot of content, and take a ton of farming of lives and loot to build up relative to other EE-capable builds. My Shiradi caster has none of these issues. The reasons people don't build DC casters revolve around opportunity costs, not because they are "borked".



    I'm going to add to this that I know of several people who run Draconic as their primary destiny because it gives better DPS than running in Shiradi. The reason most people don't is the same as for DC casters: you need to farm a bunch of past lives and loot to get your (in this case evocation) DCs high enough. A nuking sorc without good DCs runs into a brick wall against enemies with evasion.
    Last edited by Portalcat; 12-14-2013 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #111
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    Everytime I use energy blast, I hit for 5000 damage, or 10k on a crit.
    Ruin crits for 7000.
    Shiradi crits for much less, is spammable, but still only a 7% chance.

    What is best? Energy blast twisted into shiradi.

    Why isn't draconic as good? Because energy blast is the only decent thing in there.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portalcat View Post
    Why do so many people keep saying DC casting is borked?
    In fairness most of the times anyones talking about "DC casting" they are mostly talking about insta death spells, and secondarily enchantment/conjuration (CC).

    Evoc DC's are not that bad even without 3 Sorc lives, and a Wiz life (or completionist), the -10 reflex for electric spells and the twistable T3 Evoc version of that in Magister, stack in terms of the chance to give the mob a debuff. There's also the +DC twists. Newly stacking Spell focus Augment. And of course extra casting stat.

    Honestly on his first life my Shiradi caster's Evoc spells didn't get saved much against on older Epics, so this really is mostly about the hardest EE and even then it's a lot of people parroting what they read on the forums, and not knowing it's really only the top most recent EE's which gives the false impression that most EE's are "borked for DC casting".

    Not unlike how people keep saying "4k force crits" and then others parroting that, kind of make the perception the reality.

    Of course there's probably HUNDREDS of Shiradi caster players reading these threads not wanting to "admit" that their caster is "gimp" because it only gets 2-3k crits and a lot of those are average roll + crit against held and stunned mobs.

    Then there are the "you don't know how to build it" types who are just throwing out more drivel. As if you can do anything to make a 2d100 max roll TWICE every time it procs and crits, besides having as much spell power and crit chance as you can. These types would have you believe that if you're "skilled enough" you can somehow make a d100 roll 100 every time... Just need to be Uber like them. Bunch of fake ass Forum posturing...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  13. #113
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    I must be playing a different Shiradi, because the enhancements I have applied are negligible at best. I have yet to see Rainbow proc at all. It is supposed to do random stat damage and the second, (passive), tier allows for random damage. The proc rate is listed as a 7% chance, but after monitoring, (and by monitoring, I mean physically watching the hit floating text damage.), over 250 kills in the Kings Forest, I have yet to see any stat or random damage.

    Granted, I am not playing a caster, Just a Ranger, Shiradi 3, but, at 7% proc rate, I would think it would hit more frequently than Shadow Arrow listed at 5%, which hits way more often. The Dagger enhancement is totally useless, The distance between the daggers always misses the target. I do get Healing Spring and some DR, but none of the damaging effects seem worth the points spent. Either I am doing it wrong or Shiradi for the Ranger Class is extremely limited.

    As a Ranger, the best hit I can muster is Many Shot, which is a class feat. Nothing offered as Shiradi enhancement even compares to that.

    Just because someone can make an O/P build, doesn't mean there should be a broad nerfing of a class or ED. I prefer the pure builds, as do others, and by claiming that a splashed build is too O/P then those of us that play differently are the ones who are ultimately disenfranchised.

    So many "Nerf this thing" threads these days. Enough already, we get it. Forums should offer advice, encouragement and be a "forum" for debates. Almost every thread anymore is a complaint. No wonder the forum population is such a small percentage of the player base.

    Woah, now I'm ranting...
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  14. #114
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    Also DC casters aren't universal enough, and struggle with lots of encounters vs mobs with immunities to their instadeath spells or CCs.

    Anything that needs CCing my first life shiradi sorc can CC with irresistible dance. It isn't a waste of SP either when he has double the SP that my DC wizard has in the first place.

    Grind out 3 wiz and fvs lives and build a DC wiz with 60+ DCs? That's all nice. Now heres one mob that's immune to instakills and CCs. Fuuuuu, I'm now useless. Sure I can drop a FW ir an Ice Storm, but the damage is pathetic compared to my shiradi fire savant sorc.

    DC casting is very fun to play, but not as universally effective as any savant sorc even in Draconic.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Everytime I use energy blast, I hit for 5000 damage, or 10k on a crit.
    Ruin crits for 7000.
    Shiradi crits for much less, is spammable, but still only a 7% chance.

    What is best? Energy blast twisted into shiradi.

    Why isn't draconic as good? Because energy blast is the only decent thing in there.
    I disagree mobs not saving for half damage against spells is a pretty decent thing.

    They need to cut the cooldowns of Vortex, Flyby and Dragon breath in half, and they probably should have made Burst a T5 ability, or at least given it a T5 Upgrade that is compelling but that said, with them in my rotation, there's not much spell damage that hits harder. Vortex is only underwhelming simply because it's only 1d6 per character level, but even still it's DOT and AOE and 20 odd ticks of your Savant elemental damage that OFTEN crits for over a thousand and costs, paltry SP. I like it better than most tier 6 abilities. Mixed in with Savant SLA's (I wouldn't run Draconic on a Wiz which is a big reason why Shiradi needs to be left alone).

    Still there's a lot to be said for mobs not saving against your SLA's or Regular spells for half damage on spells that consistently do over a thousand damage or a couple thousand, every few seconds.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  16. #116
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    I actually didn't need energy burst much, so I changed it to twisting +2 evo DCs from draconic, and +3 evo DCs from magister into Shiradi and just spam meteor swarms at stuff.

    Also meteor swarm is my only spell that has a 'save for half damage' thing on it. I actually wasted a feat on heighten spell just for web and djsco ball, and neither work at all for me on EE so when I do an epic TR I wont even bother with heighten or any 'save for half damage' spell other than meteor swarm.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Also DC casters aren't universal enough, and struggle with lots of encounters vs mobs with immunities to their instadeath spells or CCs.

    Anything that needs CCing my first life shiradi sorc can CC with irresistible dance. It isn't a waste of SP either when he has double the SP that my DC wizard has in the first place.

    Grind out 3 wiz and fvs lives and build a DC wiz with 60+ DCs? That's all nice. Now heres one mob that's immune to instakills and CCs. Fuuuuu, I'm now useless. Sure I can drop a FW ir an Ice Storm, but the damage is pathetic compared to my shiradi fire savant sorc.

    DC casting is very fun to play, but not as universally effective as any savant sorc even in Draconic.
    This is why you play with other people. Not every toon needs to be able to solo EE to contribute hugely to a well-rounded EE group. There are builds that benefit disproportionately from grouping, and a DC caster falls in that camp, just as a healer might.

    Generally, I do run my DC caster in draconic, which sacrifices a little bit of DC casting ability to put out enough damage to at least be helpful in such encounters.

  18. #118
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    DC casters aren't even valid at all in EE, barely so in EH.

    I can solo almost every EH quest with my sorc in either draconic or shiradi, but my DC wizard would have a much harder time. In EE, my sorc can at least pull out decent DPS in either shiradi or draconic, bit leaving my DC wizard in Magisteris useless, and even if I swap him tk draconic or shiradi, he isn't even half as good as my sorc is.
    All my posts are trolled by autocorrect and the edit button not working on smartphone browsers. That's also why I make multiple posts in a row instead of editing.

  19. #119
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    I will say I made a sorc specifically to have some of that shiradi fun... after I got there it was so-so. Chaotic results from endless spamming was not fun for me I guess.

    I am pure sorc, draconic, 3 lives is all, air savant, extra magister love twisted... I also use SP saving measures of 10% cost reduction, max/emp cost reductions, Con-opp item, Halcyon Boots and over 3800 SP...oh yeah, and draconic hunger...


    I prefer it to the shiradi spammer. If I was still jealous of the build...I could be that build. I have no interest in warforged, but if I was jealous of the race+class+build...I could make one...

    I agree with several posters, no one is stopping you from making one, stop attacking others fun? It is free to play class even!?! I do not think there are so many first life builds with no equipment running around owning the highest content... there may be a few, but they are often among the best players already, get over it, there are almost always those better than you...

    I also agree, once the players are done beta testing for you and show you the synergies you may of missed that end up being a little OP - those can be adjusted... just make it take 5 levels of FvS to use those abilities or something. As many have said, shiradi has already been reduced a great deal. Last agreement, I also see many Draconics running around and see both styles in quests...

    However, multiclassing and too much low lying fruit in game vs love for pure builds... it an important but different topic altogether for a different thread.
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  20. #120
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    If you really wanted to force grouping, then nerf masters blitz, since really you become a living god just hacking down everything to solo your way to greatness. And then nerf the fury epic moment to an 8th of the dmg it does now. Then take out the ability to gather more adrenaline by vorpaling.

    And their you will put just about everyone on equal dmg ground. And then you know what will happen? mwahaha monks will be top dogs again and forever by being able to actively stun for helpless stacked dmg! Well that and assassins. Can't beat those 100+ dmg sneak attacks per hit.
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