Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 82
  1. #1
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Seminole, FL
    Posts
    10,459

    Default A few comments about epics and recent forum threads.

    Often I read several forum threads and see some themes and also see issues that are somewhat related across several threads.

    Recently I have seen some threads mentioning multiclassing, monks, and AC... as well as a variety of comments about Epic Elites and building toons to be adequate in EE.

    So I have a few comments to make.


    Multiclassing is part of 3.0/3.5 D&D and DDO.
    In theory you give up something to gain something else.

    I think many players think they see advantages and do not see disadvantages of certain multiclass or pure build choices.....for years now actually... because they continue to view this game through DPS goggles or flavor of the mod goggles.

    However, I do see some build choices as being disproportionately beneficial..... for now.
    These things seem to get nerfed eventually, so I am not really worried.


    The one that does currently bother me is the 10K stars archer builds. Which are better than any other bow archer build.
    (I am also bothered that Artificers are so superior to bow users, but I do not see any way to fix that one.)

    10K stars should NEVER have worked with bows IMO. I do not know what the devs were thinking when they made that change.
    The real problem with it though is that it sorta stacks with Manyshot, because you can use them both at different times.
    Seems to me just make them not usable in succession and you fix that blunder.
    I would even support beefing up 10K stars to partially suppress the cries of the Monchers. But a Monk should not be superior to other archer builds.


    Next topic.
    AC and EEs.

    Ok, personally, I think AC works.
    The problem I have with AC and EEs is that when I do get hit, it only takes 2-3 hits to kill my characters.

    And those with twice my HP die almost as fast. (4-6 hits is not much different from 2-3)


    Now, many people discovered that things like Dodge percentage help more than AC in EEs.
    This has brought back the robe wearers.

    Easy fix here IMO.
    Give more PRR to armor. A lot more!


    I do feel that at level 18+ randomly generate armor lacks behind quiet a bit.
    And the only named armors that make a difference have high minimum levels... so there is a significant gap of time when players have inadequate AC for the level of dungeons they should be doing.

    But again, I think simply giving more PRR to armor will help this a lot.




    Epic Destinies....specifically Shiradi. And maybe Furry.

    I like Shiradi a lot. It is one of my favorite destinies so far.
    But I do not see it as overpowered.

    Of course, I don't see any "EPIC" powers as overpowered.
    Beef up the mobs... this is suppose to be "epic" you know.

    Careful though. We deserve to be able to use are superpowers.
    I have made several comments in the that epic dungeons need hordes of minions for us to slaughter, as well as more powerful mini-bosses that are tricks do not work on.....

    Or simply have the monsters use the same tricks we do....

    Back to Shiradi.
    While I do really like Shiradi for archers and nukers, my own toons have not seen super powerful DPS out of Shiradi.

    For my Wizard, I prefer Magister for the DCs by far.
    EEs are difficult for DC casters, but no more so than Amrath when it first came out by comparison IMO.
    Level drain, debuff, and use spells with will saves against melee types, and fort saves against caster types and DC casting still works.


    Furry.
    People keep mentioning Furry and Manyshot.

    Tried it. Yeah.. it did better DPs than anything else I have tried yet.
    Still not super powerful IMO.
    And I still prefer Shiradi

    Other destinies.
    People rave about EIN and Blitz.
    Personally, I can't get the tier 5 stuff to trigger hardly at all.

    How can something OP if you can't ever get it to work?

    OK, apparently there is a way to charge EIN ahead of time.
    Me personally... seems to take too long and too many things uncharge it for me to gain much use out of it.


    and again... this IS "EPIC" ya know.....
    So if others get it to work often for them... great!

    Of course.. the fact that EIN and Blitz "DO" work.... kinda nullifies the argument that Shiradi and Furry-shot are OP.


    Maybe just looks at some of the less popular destinies and think about tweaking them.



    Out of time and thoughts right now.. maybe I will add more later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #2
    Community Member locksmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Never tried Furry-Shot. However I love Fury-Shot.
    Boldor of Renowned

  3. #3
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,065

    Default

    I had an idea regarding armor and ac. Why not directly add the ac value of armor to the prr? Robes with magical ac values don't get this effect. Only armor.

    Tanks aren't tough enough? In stance they get a percent increase to their ac. They would get that percent increase to their prr as well.

  4. #4
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Blitz is easy enough to get to proc, since you can charge it by cleaving/tripping air. And once you get it charged you need to kill just a few criters of appropriate level to keep it going through the rest of the quest (as long as you have mobs to kill). And the amount of damage it deals when at 10 stacks makes it easy t keep it going.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  5. #5
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    Multiclassing isn't the problem. Monk 2 isn't the problem. Monk 2 with the ability to take the adept/master/grandmaster stances - which are already strong - is part of hte problem. Those are "adders" onto D&D, and only exist (recently even) in DDO as things a splash can take.

    Archery isn't the problem. Manyshot and 10k stars aren't the problem. 10k stars working with bows even, isn't the problem. Furyshot is too strong on top of these. Nerfing archery in general just makes archery not fun in heroic, not fun for people who aren't in Fury.

    AC does something ...
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    295

    Default

    I am humane. I would never shoot a furry.
    Shammrock
    Roshammbo
    Many, many mules...

  7. #7
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    TARTARUS
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    The one that does currently bother me is the 10K stars archer builds. Which are better than any other bow archer build.

    10K stars should NEVER have worked with bows IMO. I do not know what the devs were thinking when they made that change.
    The real problem with it though is that it sorta stacks with Manyshot, because you can use them both at different times.
    Seems to me just make them not usable in succession and you fix that blunder.
    I would even support beefing up 10K stars to partially suppress the cries of the Monchers. But a Monk should not be superior to other archer builds.

    Now, many people discovered that things like Dodge percentage help more than AC in EEs.
    This has brought back the robe wearers.
    Why should 10K stars never have worked with bows? I don't understand this, as before this happened Bows were pretty useless most of the time. You had manyshot and then you melee'd. Before 10K stars there were no "ranged" or "archer" builds. There were simply melee builds with manyshot.
    And while yes, You can use Manyshot, the use 10K stars right after 10K stars is still vastly behind manyshot in power. you need a minimum of 44 wisdom to make 10K stars even worth getting, and even then it only opens up the chance for you to shoot extra arrows. It doesn't guarantee it.

    If you take away 10K stars, you literally break ranged builds in DDO forever. That's all there is too it. No amount of doubleshot will make up for it, and really if you ever did get a high enough value of doubleshot that it did make up for it, how is that any different from just having 10K stars?

    A monk is not superior to all other archer builds, a class split with 6 monk is.
    My "Monkcher" is a Ranger for example. Not a monk, but a Ranger.

    AC is completely useless in EE's, and that is why people rely on dodge and other sources of damage mitigation.
    Fix AC, and you fix this problem.

    People wearing robes/outfits is not a problem.

    PRR is just as powerful, and if you build for it you can reach some very high PRR numbers.
    A Pajama toon can only reach about 60ish in most cases, without gimping itself in other area for other things.
    If you can't take the hits, you need to avoid them, hence building for dodge.
    I don't see the problem with this, except they broke AC when the "fixed" it.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  8. #8
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    TARTARUS
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Multiclassing isn't the problem. Monk 2 isn't the problem. Monk 2 with the ability to take the adept/master/grandmaster stances - which are already strong - is part of hte problem. Those are "adders" onto D&D, and only exist (recently even) in DDO as things a splash can take.
    I'm sort of torn by this. While I generally agree that it's kind of ridiculous, I think the bigger problem is with the fighter tree and being able to be centered with any weapon you want.

    That to me is way, way more powerful than getting the stances as feats anyways.
    For instance, I can build a melee sorc who uses staffs and buy the grandmaster feats and it makes her more powerful, but not OP.
    However, when a 12Fighter/6Monk/2Pali is centered with a ESOS, and running blitz... Well, it's just kind of crazy.

    So the problem is hard to nail down to just one thing IMO.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  9. #9
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    8,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Furry.
    People keep mentioning Furry and Manyshot.

    Tried it. Yeah.. it did better DPs than anything else I have tried yet.
    Still not super powerful IMO.
    And I still prefer Shiradi

    Other destinies.
    People rave about EIN and Blitz.
    Personally, I can't get the tier 5 stuff to trigger hardly at all.

    How can something OP if you can't ever get it to work?

    OK, apparently there is a way to charge EIN ahead of time.
    Me personally... seems to take too long and too many things uncharge it for me to gain much use out of it.


    and again... this IS "EPIC" ya know.....
    So if others get it to work often for them... great!

    Of r.
    Furry and manyshot? Giant space hamsters have manyshot?

    You can charge up Blitz easy, if you know the quest raid well and are fast to beat others to the kill you can keep it going for a long time.

    I personally think some of the other Destinies could do with a little work and some help.

  10. #10
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by locksmith View Post
    Never tried Furry-Shot. However I love Fury-Shot.
    It's a softer version of "Fury"- shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  11. #11
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Left from Underdark
    Posts
    3,132

    Default

    What i see in this thread is this:
    Leave my shiradi casters alone, i want my useless hp based dwarf sentinel 5 to solo ees and i dont like the monkcher has most kills in quests...

    Dont nerf things that are fun, buff others so that they have equal ammount of fun..

    And delete bards from game. / its me being affected by dungeon bastards mentality where bards are ... Bastard for pope!

    Anyways about this thread, simply put:

    No ty and have a nice day
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 12-11-2013 at 02:52 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Seminole, FL
    Posts
    10,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Why should 10K stars never have worked with bows? I don't understand this, as before this happened Bows were pretty useless most of the time. You had manyshot and then you melee'd. Before 10K stars there were no "ranged" or "archer" builds. There were simply melee builds with manyshot.
    And while yes, You can use Manyshot, the use 10K stars right after 10K stars is still vastly behind manyshot in power. you need a minimum of 44 wisdom to make 10K stars even worth getting, and even then it only opens up the chance for you to shoot extra arrows. It doesn't guarantee it.

    If you take away 10K stars, you literally break ranged builds in DDO forever. That's all there is too it. No amount of doubleshot will make up for it, and really if you ever did get a high enough value of doubleshot that it did make up for it, how is that any different from just having 10K stars?

    A monk is not superior to all other archer builds, a class split with 6 monk is.
    My "Monkcher" is a Ranger for example. Not a monk, but a Ranger.

    AC is completely useless in EE's, and that is why people rely on dodge and other sources of damage mitigation.
    Fix AC, and you fix this problem.

    People wearing robes/outfits is not a problem.

    PRR is just as powerful, and if you build for it you can reach some very high PRR numbers.
    A Pajama toon can only reach about 60ish in most cases, without gimping itself in other area for other things.
    If you can't take the hits, you need to avoid them, hence building for dodge.
    I don't see the problem with this, except they broke AC when the "fixed" it.
    Because 10K Stars is not 10K Arrows.

    ...and because is made a Monk6 the best archer in the game.


    and armor should be better protection than robes.... except for Monks.
    But Monks should not be so good that everyone wants to be one.



    IMO, AC works and is far better than before.
    But then the game got harder.... (sorta)

    I do see misses against my AC now. Which I only saw before if they rolled a "1" to try to hit me. The new system is better by far.

    But.....they still hit you a lot. Especially on EEs.
    And they only need to hit you few times, because they do so much damage.

    PRR, if it is high enough, can reduce that damage.
    But it seems to me that it cannot be high enough.... at least for the majority of players.

    Dodge seems easier to get. In fact, they made it easier recently.

    Which is fine.... sorta. Except when people start choosing robes over armor (again).


    Personally, I prefer Rangers.
    Or maybe casters.

    But I play every class, and I am annoyed that meleeing means attack once, get agro, and spend the rest of the fight running and hoping I can heal up before they hit me again.





    Another issue I forgot that I wanted to mention is healing amp. Or self healing in general.

    My favorite characters have good healing amp... and also can UMD Heal scrolls.
    Some have good self healing from SP... although then I run into the running out of SP problem.

    But I also have several characters with none of that.
    These guys cannot run difficult quests without a babysitter. Just because CSW pots cannot heal quick enough compared to incoming damage.

    Silver Flame pots are an option.
    But they can cripple most builds.

    (I do not consider DDO store items a valid option... either for healing potions or SP pots)

    Let me restate... regardless of DPS... regardless of HP..... possibly regardless of AC, etc. (although I do think better defensive gear will help, it brings me back to my AC complaints.)
    My characters without good self healing capabilities cannot run difficult quests effectively... without a babysitter to keep me healed.
    (I am talking about melee characters mostly... but it sometimes applies to others as well.)




    Now again... I have always preferred Rangers.
    I also like casters and Rogues that I tend to play in a way that do not usually get agro... and I prefer characters with good self healing capabilities.

    But there is something wrong with the game when a regular melee guy becomes a liability, or at least an annoyance because he depends on another player to keep him alive so he can fight.


    Back to AC/Armor etc.

    This is related to the armor issues somewhat.

    Getting adequate defenses in the game currently takes either a ton of gear or is actually impossible altogether.

    Some named armors seem to be pretty good.
    But the casual guy needs random armor to be good enough.

    I really thing the easy cure for most of the issues is simply a huge jump in PRR for armor.

    * I think this will help reduce the "I wanna splash Monk" mindset.
    * Reduce the feeling of need to splash for Evasion (because wearing heavier Armor could see more of a benefit.. at least for melee guys)
    * Reduce the need for Healing Amp, UMDing Heal Scrolls, or waiting for healers.
    * and reduce the complaints about how hard things hit in EEs.



    So I guess most of my complaints can be addressed in two easy fixes.

    Huge buff to PRR for armor.

    Change the cooldowns for 10K Stars and Manyshot so that 10K stars does not make you the best archer in the game. (maybe buff 10K stars to not too badly hurt current Monchers... but I would prefer buffing it for Shuriken and not arrows.


    and I will add look at buffing some top tier destiny effects.
    And a close look at monsters in quests to both allow players to flex their epic muscles and also to still have a challenge whil edoing so.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 12-11-2013 at 09:28 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  13. #13
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Seminole, FL
    Posts
    10,459

    Default

    One more statement.


    Anything that becomes overused by players should be changed. (a change could be a change to something else to make the overused thing a less desirable choice.)

    The game becomes less fun when one way of doing things is clearly superior to other choices.



    This goes with builds, gear.. and quest design... really everything.

    Everything should not be equal or balanced, but there should be no clear "best"... at least not when it becomes overused by players.

    I think Monchers should be a valid option. But not the best option.

    I think splashing for evasion should be a valid option but no the best option. (btw, having monsters make more use of spells that use something other than Ref save fixes this)

    I think Armor AND Robes should be valid options. (but Robes should be for special builds... like Monks and Swashbuckler Types... actually Swashbuckler types should probably be using light armor...)


    Hmm.. that's about it I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  14. #14
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by locksmith View Post
    Never tried Furry-Shot.
    What happens in Vegas . . .

  15. #15
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Blitz is easy enough to get to proc, since you can charge it by cleaving/tripping air.
    Which really is stupid . . . the tactics should at least have to make contact with a mob in order to count. Same with EIN charging.

  16. #16
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post

    So the problem is hard to nail down to just one thing IMO.
    .

    No it's not hard, it all centers around monks.

    (the above pun was not intentional)

  17. #17
    Community Member rest's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burque
    Posts
    5,602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    If you take away 10K stars, you literally break ranged builds in DDO forever. That's all there is too it. No amount of doubleshot will make up for it, and really if you ever did get a high enough value of doubleshot that it did make up for it, how is that any different from just having 10K stars?
    My ranger doesn't use 10k stars. He is not "literally broken forever". He's awesome.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I think Monchers should be a valid option. But not the best option.
    This cannot happen without significant nerfs. Monk gives . . .

    - run speed. THIS IS HUGE for a pew-pew kite-machine.
    - Defense - tons of PRR and incorporeal that you cannot get anywhere else.
    - MOAR DPS! - extra crit multiplyer on 19-20. Dance of Flowers twist is brokenly awesome as well with it giving an AVERAGE of 10 points a shot more than people who do not have this.

    So even WITHOUT 10k STARS monkchers are OP compared to other types.

    10k Stars shouldn't work with bows.

    Dance of Flowers should only work with handwraps.

    Do that and we have something sorta resembling class balance. As it is now all the OP stuff comes from monk.

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Why should 10K stars never have worked with bows? I don't understand this, as before this happened Bows were pretty useless most of the time. You had manyshot and then you melee'd. Before 10K stars there were no "ranged" or "archer" builds. There were simply melee builds with manyshot.
    And while yes, You can use Manyshot, the use 10K stars right after 10K stars is still vastly behind manyshot in power. you need a minimum of 44 wisdom to make 10K stars even worth getting, and even then it only opens up the chance for you to shoot extra arrows. It doesn't guarantee it.

    If you take away 10K stars, you literally break ranged builds in DDO forever. That's all there is too it. No amount of doubleshot will make up for it, and really if you ever did get a high enough value of doubleshot that it did make up for it, how is that any different from just having 10K stars?

    A monk is not superior to all other archer builds, a class split with 6 monk is.
    My "Monkcher" is a Ranger for example. Not a monk, but a Ranger.
    Ranged has 3 burst abilities.

    1. manyshot - for bows
    2. endless fuscilade for crossbows
    3. 10k stars for thrown

    Each ranged entity having one type of burst is balanced. Giving 2 of those to the same weapon starts to unbalance the equation. Archers needing monk levels to be optimal is bad game design. A pure monk can be built with both manyshot and 10k stars. No other class can be built with both as a pure, because 10k stars is dependant on having 6 monk levels. Manyshot is not dependant on having 6 ranger levels.

    Your "monkcher" is not a ranger. It is a multiclass build with a minimum of 6 monk levels.

    I dont advocate taking 10k stars away. I advocate making a feat called 10k arrows that requires zen archery that people can take without having to load up monk levels. Then we can have some real optimal archer builds without having to be tethered to 6 monk levels to be optimal.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This cannot happen without significant nerfs. Monk gives . . .

    - run speed. THIS IS HUGE for a pew-pew kite-machine.
    - Defense - tons of PRR and incorporeal that you cannot get anywhere else.
    - MOAR DPS! - extra crit multiplyer on 19-20. Dance of Flowers twist is brokenly awesome as well with it giving an AVERAGE of 10 points a shot more than people who do not have this.

    So even WITHOUT 10k STARS monkchers are OP compared to other types.

    10k Stars shouldn't work with bows.

    Dance of Flowers should only work with handwraps.

    Do that and we have something sorta resembling class balance. As it is now all the OP stuff comes from monk.

    But why should they touch Monkchers at all if you have shiradi casters that rule over the same content. Why a shiradi caster can be powerful, a master blitzer toon can be powerful and a monkcher cannot be powerful as well?
    If you want to build a good archer just consider the fact that you need to multiclass ranger and monk.
    Ten K stars is fine and dance of flowers is fine with bows as well!
    Archery needed a boost and that boost came from monk powers meshed with ranger powers exactly in the same way fighters needed a boost and now they can use any weapon even ESOS while centered with monk stances and have incorporeal and boost to crits etc.

    Monk is the answer from the devs to boost classes that sucked before the enhancement pass. Just live with it
    Yeela - Favored Soul Healer and Nuker
    Xylah - Pally Arcane Archer
    Redsonjah - Barbarian DPS

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload