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  1. #121

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    I think adding the heal spell to the bards spell book was a step in the right direction, but they need to reward pure bards a little more. Maybe giving them competitive enchantment DC's (as in closing the spell level gap), and giving them a wider variety of spells (like even adding in some utility spells like resist energy, knock, and jump).
    Some have mentioned adding in new sonic based spells and I like the idea of at the very least a sonic DOT and Echoes of Power.

    The enhancement pass did wonders for all the classes except for bards, the trees are nice but bard power feels about the same as it was pre u14 except with some warchanter forgettable filler abilities.
    Crank it out!

  2. #122
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The purpose of this thread is to show what the biggest problems with bard enhancements are, and maybe gives ideas on how to fix them (or what to replace certain enhancements with, if you think an enhancement is unsalvageable).
    First of all, great topic. Bard is my 2nd-favorite class in DDO and it really needs some love.

    My top 5, in no particular order:

    1) WC bards don't get access to martial weapon proficiency until level 12.
    While true, I wouldn't put this in the top 5. Bards still get access to the Master's Touch spell, which does essentially the same thing for a minor SP cost. Weapon Group Training is mostly the +2 to hit and damage (and the convenience). And many warchanter bards splash fighter, barbarian, and/or ranger so it is often moot. I wouldn't put this in the top 5.

    2) "Boast" isn't very useful, since the duration of the +1[W] effect is based on a set amount of temporary HP.
    I agree that this ability is somewhat lackluster, ESPECIALLY for a melee Warchanter. However an archer build can get a lot of out this if the player is skilled at dodging attacks.

    3) "Gathering Cold" is too unlikely to proc, and what it gives is not very useful.
    No freakin' kidding. Really only useful as a gateway to Northwind, but after playing a warchanter for a while I'm not sure Northwind is working as advertised. So I'd put Northwind on this list, probably instead of your #1.

    4) "Iced Edges" should be replaced with the "Elemental Weapons" spell from the artificer spell list, or something similar.
    This is a good idea. And why is a warchanter somehow forced to spec for cold damage anyway? Is this supposed to be because the class is somewhat based on vikings who merely lived in cold climates? I can assure you viking steel was no colder than the environment they were attacking. Not really a whole lot of myth about viking skalds. They were essentially poets and historians, and served much the same function in society as playwrights in ancient Greece or Elizabethan Britain, telling tales of historic heroes and legends. They weren't necessarily warriors. Why not let us choose any element (acid, cold, electricity, fire) for Gathering Cold and make all subsequent elemental abilities deal the same type of damage or something?

    5) "Frozen Fury" becomes less useful as character levels go up, since the DC doesn't scale very well.
    Oh heavens, yes. At least make the DC 10/12/14 + half bard level + Cha modifier like most other similar abilities in other trees.
    Again, awesome thread. A lot of focus on Warchanter here, which is clearly the weaker of the two enhancement trees for bards. I'd like to see a third bard enhancement tree as well. I suggested using the Sublime Chord as inspiration in another thread.

  3. #123
    Community Member Astraghal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post
    Again, awesome thread. A lot of focus on Warchanter here, which is clearly the weaker of the two enhancement trees for bards. I'd like to see a third bard enhancement tree as well. I suggested using the Sublime Chord as inspiration in another thread.
    What kind of idiot uses bright yellow text on a white background?

    Darwin Awards material if genuine.. own goal if trolling.

  4. #124
    Community Member Astraghal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It's interesting reading the thought processes of someone who's just figured out say 1/10th of what life is really like but doesn't yet realize that what they're seeing is the tip of the iceberg.

    Welcome to real life, I'd say more but I don't want to ruin it for you. Suffice to say you can come out the other side realizing that the irreverent and the pointless things you enjoy are still fun, and worth doing compared to the irrelevant and pointless things you don't like doing.
    What the actual f**ck?

  5. #125
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post
    Again, awesome thread. A lot of focus on Warchanter here, which is clearly the weaker of the two enhancement trees for bards. I'd like to see a third bard enhancement tree as well. I suggested using the Sublime Chord as inspiration in another thread.
    Yeah, I'm in the middle of a bard life right now, and some of the stuff they put in the WC tree really annoys me. Do you have a link to a description of the Sublime Chord you're talking about? I'm not particularly familiar with PnP, my introduction to D&D was the game Baldur's Gate, and later NWN. This thread is about suggestions, and any would be helpful.

    The third bard enhancement tree, should it ever come to fruition, should have some SLAs in it. And some AOE spells. Bards are seriously lacking in that department. They have enough enchantment-based options already.

  6. #126
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    This is likely to get lost somewhere in here, but might I suggest a new epic feat geared towards bards?

    Epic Inspire Courage
    Prerequisites: Bard level 12+, Perform 15+ ranks. (BTW this is what the prerequisites for Inspire Excellence should be as well to keep in like with the Monk and Rogue-specific Epic feats.)
    Effect: Your bonuses to attack, damage, and saving throws versus fear from Inspire Courage increase by 1 for each epic level you possess.


    It's not like bards have a lot of great options for feats at epic levels anyway. And it's a gift that keeps on giving as you improve in level. And it will continue to improve as the level cap increases. It will also make Inspire Courage a lot more relevant in epics. A warchanter could theoretically have +15 to hit, damage, and saving throws versus fear at current level cap. Not too shabby.

    While we're at it, could we divest the bonus to damage for Inspire Courage from the Warchanter core line and add its effect to the Warchanter enhancement The Poetic Edda. So The Poetic Edda would grant +1/+2/+3 attack, songs, and damage from Inspire Courage. Instead give the Warchanter core 2, 4, and 6 abilities +20%/+40%/+60% song duration.

    There's a whole litany of things I could do to improve the bard class, but these would probably be my top 2. The Poetic Edda is practically meaningless as it is. Bonuses to hit are so easy to come by. Even wizards with dumped Str can hit stuff in melee with relative ease. +3 songs is really meh considering you get 1 song per bard level, and even more meh if you throw in the practical doubling that Fatesinger can grant.

    Oh yea, and second, third, fourth, fifth or whatever it's up to now the motion that Turn of the Tide (Fatesinge epic moment) be altered to allow the bonus sonic and light damage to affect bosses. Heck, it would actually make Fatesinger a palatable option for melee and ranged DPS who are not spellcasters to level in to gain Arcane Karma. Every sphere needs to have at least one option that is palatable for earning Karma for a caster, a melee, or an archer/arbalester. (Divine and Martial are both lacking in one or the other at the moment as well, but that's OT in a thread about bards.)

  7. #127
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraghal View Post
    What kind of idiot uses bright yellow text on a white background?

    Darwin Awards material if genuine.. own goal if trolling.
    Hi! Nice polite response here. To be a little more constructive, I'll note there are many of us who use Stylish or other means in order to view the forums in a more classic "white text on black background" mode. For many of us, it is much easier on the eyes. I could have used green or red as well, but both are fairly difficult to look at on a white background as well. Some folks use dark red, but that doesn't show up well on black backgrounds. Taking your note in the most positive light possible, as I am certain you had the best of intentions, perhaps Golden Rod or Dark Orange would be a nice alternative that would please both types of users.

  8. #128
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    I do think bards are underpowered but I also think a big problem with bards is that a lot of people just DON'T seem to know how to make/play one.

    PS: I agree on the Golden Rod or Dark Orange font for responses, much easier to read

  9. #129
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Default gotta agree, make your bard a spellcaster or melee...not both

    Quote Originally Posted by marinerfan View Post
    I do think bards are underpowered but I also think a big problem with bards is that a lot of people just DON'T seem to know how to make/play one.

    PS: I agree on the Golden Rod or Dark Orange font for responses, much easier to read
    and fatesinger suks ...unless all you like is buffin others.Epic Bard dosent need xtra song stuff ,my perform is almost 60.
    Mercyful Fate/ King Diamond link{ http://www.kingdiamondcoven.com } /''horror and moral terror are your friends'',Col. Kurtz/King Diamond Coven , lvl 79Ghallanda /43 Sarlona

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powskier View Post
    and fatesinger suks ...unless all you like is buffin others.Epic Bard dosent need xtra song stuff ,my perform is almost 60.
    If the extra songs were useful, I'd say add them. My bard loved the +sonic/electric proc song from fatesinger (high str 2wf build), but other than that I totally agree. I'm running Grandmaster of the Flowers right now, and at tier 2 I don't feel much weaker than I did in tier 5 fatesinger...

  11. #131
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    I just tried Inspire Heroics yesterday (the feat song that requires 18 ranks of perform to unlock). In the enhancement pass, it ended up with the same code as the level 6 Warchanter core Inspire Heroism.

    :|

  12. #132
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    I just tried Inspire Heroics yesterday (the feat song that requires 18 ranks of perform to unlock). In the enhancement pass, it ended up with the same code as the level 6 Warchanter core Inspire Heroism.

    :|
    If you are talking about the fact that it only targets one person, then I'm afraid that that's how it's supposed to work, according to the wiki. http://ddowiki.com/page/Inspire_Heroics

  13. #133
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Default The Truth About Bards

    I perceive three concepts with this thread:

    1) Bard's have no DPS
    Solution: developer changes. May I suggest the two most important P&P powers of a bard is diplomacy and bluff. Both can eliminate enemies. A nice developer change can incorporate diplomacy in spell singers who can use a skill to eliminate enemies and a war-chanter to use bluff in the same way. I would also like to suggest another P&P idea which is a bard's ability to call for aide, expressed in DDO with (coordinated) masses of NPCs.
    2) Fascinate is a one hit wonder.
    Solution: Believe the truth that it is. To be a good bard means to take advantage of this truth as best as you can. Develop your stealth skill, keeping invisible for the entire quest, and play on the fact that you can meta-game the future encounters. You need not worry about the realistic role play here because every P&P bard will do his or her research at determining every little bit of information about their enemy, up to the point of Truly getting them with their pants down. Furthermore, enthrall before and during encounters should be used constantly without the person playing the bard getting frustrated. To change an enemies pathing in the middle of a fight is an awesome ability.
    3) Buffs are impotent.
    Solution: The person playing a bard needs to slow down. Songs take a long time. Only one song at the beginning of the quest needs to be sung [Spell Song Trance which has an instant casting time] and all the others can be sung as the party moves on. Get close to the casters for caster songs, close to the melee for the melee songs and close to the rogues for the rogue songs. They all last 3-5 minutes which allows you time to start using fascinate / enthrall. All the songs can be played while you're invisible. Being constantly invisible is a pretty dog gone potent quality.

    What has not been said is the functionality of a bard in raids. He or she almost always gets killed. He or she is never near allies of whom can benefit from songs. A bard's fascinate is useless to any boss. The DPS which I suggested above would never be actualized.
    Solution: Spot healing. I suggest the bard be in charge of spot healing the ranged combat characters, even joining them with a ranged weapon themselves. This keeps them somewhat out of melee, and takes advantage of a bards Mass Heals. The bard can minimize song functionality to the ranged characters alone, as well as the bard's own person.

    I therefore suggest people to create Halfling bards or the developers can finally implement gnomes.

  14. #134
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post
    Again, awesome thread. A lot of focus on Warchanter here, which is clearly the weaker of the two enhancement trees for bards...
    Yes. This thread would more appropriately be titled "So what are the biggest Warchanter tree problems?"
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 12-16-2013 at 10:45 PM.

  15. #135
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    They're too powerful. Every other class is too muck weaker.

    I wish my FVS could be as stronk as a bird.
    All my posts are trolled by autocorrect and the edit button not working on smartphone browsers. That's also why I make multiple posts in a row instead of editing.

  16. #136
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powskier View Post
    and fatesinger suks ...unless all you like is buffin others.Epic Bard dosent need xtra song stuff ,my perform is almost 60.
    So, what your saying is that you like to run out of Songs, like not have stonger Sonic spells, and not able to mezz.

    Almost 60 preform, really. That is not something to be proud of, at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  17. #137
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Yes. This thread would more appropriately be titled "So what are the biggest Warchanter tree problems?"
    I chose to list some problems with the warchanter in particular since I'm playing a melee bard. Other people had different answers to the question I posed in the thread title, so no, you're wrong.

  18. #138
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Solution: Spot healing. I suggest the bard be in charge of spot healing the ranged combat characters, even joining them with a ranged weapon themselves. This keeps them somewhat out of melee, and takes advantage of a bards Mass Heals. The bard can minimize song functionality to the ranged characters alone, as well as the bard's own person.

    I therefore suggest people to create Halfling bards or the developers can finally implement gnomes.
    You're trying to pigeon hole a class that is supposed to be flexible. I see several people chiming in with ideas that limit bards greatly. Like the folks that say "I don't think bards need to have dps, they're fine as support toons". While you may like playing a support toon, I like playing a bard aggressively. The trees are there for both, they both need to be viable and work correctly. This way you can play the bard however you want, and I can play mine the way I want. DDO is mostly about combat, and with the game mechanics set up the way they are with red names being immune to everything but dps, dungeon alert preventing us from charming and running, and very few ways to deal with conflict other than killing... this pretty much requires an active role in combat. Either as direct support, or as dps. Everything else is flavor.

    To say that the best way to handle the problems with bard is to create a healing halfling ranged toon, I would have to say that while that might be an interesting way to play it, it should not be the only way to play it.

  19. #139
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Yes. This thread would more appropriately be titled "So what are the biggest Warchanter tree problems?"
    While Warchanter has serious flaws, SS has bugs and other issues as well. I don't think either one is in a great place, although Warchanter is much worse.

  20. #140
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    ...you're wrong.

    Am I? Improving the Spellsinger tree shouldn't even be in the top 10 of needed enhancement balances. It's a matter of prioritizing and not nitpicking.

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